@BigD

Quote:

Christians helped to abolish slavery, stopped the second class citizen situation that blacks in America suffered after slavery was abolished and are at the forefront of helping women stuck in the sex-trafficking slavery rings still active today.

And other christians helped to conduct slavery, justified the second class citizen situation as part of god's plan and kept women in third class citizen status, again justified as part of god's plan.

You don't get a free moral high ground by claiming to be a christian, D. And its a shame you can't understand why that is.

Quote:

Sharia law courts are active in communties in the UK today and often usurp UK law in the decisions they make in regards to divorces in which technically they hold no jurisdiction and yet still hold great sway over the vulnerable women affected by their decisions.

You know what, D, I oppose letting sharia courts usurp the rule of law just as much as I oppose your old testament morality corrupting it, that is to say completely.

Opposing antediluvian palaeochristian attitudes to sexuality does not make one a 'muslim sympathiser', it simply makes one a rational human being.

Quote:

Utter tosh, yes grandparents, aunties and uncles can be important to family life but equally uncles and aunties can present a child abuse risk in some cases.

And guess what, mothers and fathers can present a child abuse risk in some cases. Will you now suggest that the state simply take all children away from any potential risk factor? Of course not. All you're doing is throwing a scare factor in to avoid having to deal with the fact that your opinion on what family structures work does not match reality.

You are living in a fantasy dream world, D.

Quote:

Jimmy Saville, an English DJ and TV personality, never talked about his father's role in his upbringing and so we can assume it wasn't a particularly positive relationship. He also didn't have a close emotional/caring relationship with his mother.

Are we talking about the same Jimmy Savile? The man who was so creepily close to his mother that he kept her bedroom exactly as it was the day she died and carried on living as if she'd never left? And are we now to simply assume that anybody who does anything wrong *must* automatically have had a bad relationship with their fathers? I could name plenty of people who got on just fine with daddy, who then went on to do terrible things.

You're twisting the facts of the Savile case around whatever sick fantasy you can construct to support your prejudged conclusion about what is and is not a healthy family life. Frankly, its disgusting and hugely disrespectful to the victims.

Quote:

Your true colours have been shown by your lack of gratitude and respect for the institutions of marriage and the family headed up by a married mother and father. Our society is built on these institutions for the good of children and society at large.

After posting what you just did above you see fit to lecture me about respect? Incredulity scarcely covers it. Regardless, I see no reason to treat you with any respect or gratitude, since you seem to feel no need to treat others with any of either.

My attitude towards marriage and the family are that I believe them to be institutions strong enough to handle same sex relationships. Everything I have seen dealing with real people in the real world indicates to me that this is the case.

You would reduce marriage and the family to nothing more than a pointless, nuclear, patriarchal baby factory. You destroy the meaning of the thing by throwing out all its soul and emotion in the name of your god and its pointless demands.

Demands that aren't even in the original text, no less. The mind boggles.

Quote:

Yes, marriages are given up on without due effort and people are selfish and don't live up to the responsibilities that they have taken on themselves. However, that doesn't make the institutions themselves worthless and ripe for liberals to simply rip up the defintion just becasue your fed up playing Sim City and want to try your hand a real social engineering

Nothing in these proposals will destroy anything.

Your marriage, if we assume any woman could put up with you long enough to get to the end of the aisle, will be totally unaffected by the ability of same sex couples to declare theirs in the same way.

The fact that you feel it will be affected indicates to me that you are very insecure about it. You can get professional help for that, you know - you don't have to compensate by hating on the gays.

Last edited by T-J on 08-Nov-2012 at 10:49 PM.
Last edited by T-J on 08-Nov-2012 at 10:47 PM.

@BigD

Quote:

Equality as shown in the Bull vs Hall & Preddy case is already in place. The destruction of marriage has already been outlined.

Equality is not in place. Civil partnerships have clearly outlined legal differences that separate them from marriage, regardless of your Bull. Versus Hall and Preddy, of course.

The law as it stands is an obstacle to freedom of conscience and freedom of religion - those congregations of many religions that wish to conduct ceremonies to mark same-sex unions currently are barred from doing so under the law.

This is an inequality that must be challenged.

Oh, and just to address the 'new' points you make:

Quote:

Let's not forget the evidence from Spain and the Netherlands that show they have suffered catastrophic reductions in marriage rates following the introduction of same-sex marriage! You can say that the rates were already dropping but they completely tailed off exponentially once marriage was redefined!

Yeah, just tweak the lie once you've been called on it and hope I don't notice, eh?

This is not the case.

The decline in marriage rates in both the Netherlands and Spain have continued on-trend with long term rates of change.

No exponential change has set in. It remains on the previous, arithmetic progression of steady decline to a new lower steady-state reflecting the changing role of women in society and the new ability for failing marriages to be ended cleanly.

Same sex marriage has nothing to do with this. And your attempts to link it in are nothing short of deceitful.

Quote:

Let's also not forget that in Brazil that a judge effectively legalised three-way relationship by giving marriage-like rights to a polygamous relationship because of civil partnership laws.

Again, why the hell do you care what three people in Brazil get up to in their bedroom? It is a distinctly unhealthy attitude to take.

And frankly, the way I see it, if three people want to get their relationship acknowledged by their community that's fine by me. Of course I wouldn't be interested in a poly relationship - from what I've seen they are far too much hassle to be bothered with, their members in my experience pretty much running out of time for anything beyond work and managing the relationship. But you know what? I don't mind if others want to do that. Why? Because it doesn't affect me.

Anyway, what's your problem with this? The bible itself is full of examples of men with many wives, so there's even precedent! Before the Romans went in and changed it, the early Christians saw polygamy as neither a good nor a bad thing, just an option.

Quote:

Surely to introduce marriage tax benefits and increasing incentives for couples who are prepared to commit to each other.

Ah, this argument's always made me laugh. I can just see the scenario now, the romantic scene, the couple, he goes on bended knee and proposes, and she says, 'well, I would, and I do love you, but you know, we will still pay 20% on VAT, and both our salaries are going to be in the 20p bracket... So, actually, nah.'...

Not particularly realistic, is it.

Couples who are willing to commit to each other are willing to commit to eachother, come hell or high water. Couples who commit to each other contingent on a tax break are just another early divorce waiting to happen as soon as the going gets tough.

Exactly the sort of thing you claim to oppose.

@CritAnime

Quote:

That made me chuckle. Your using Jimmy Saville, a man that is been used for every argument under the sun to do with degredation of society (to the point that it renders arguments moot), as a spring board for one man one woman happy christian family where they raise the perfect child. Even though I could go to any public library and get a stacks of books on muderers and find that a big proportion come from "sterotypical loving christian family units" as one book put it (I like reading about stuff like this).

The most disturbing part of the BBC Programme: Panorama: Jimmy Savile - What the BBC Knew, was the effect that Jimmy Saville's abuse had on some of his victims in the long run...

..Jimmy Saville gained access to hospitals and prisons as a volunteer porter due to his fame and influence. One former Broadmoor prison patient Alison Pink was abused in the high security prison while still in her teens. While she was sitting on the sofa watching Top of the Pops Jimmy Saville who was sitting on the floor beneath her reached up and casually put his hand inappropriately between her legs! This was a quick and short duration event but had long term affects. She has now had a sex change and is called Steven George. This is no doubt at least partially due to this abuse at the hands of this perverted man.

The abuse and lack of care and nurturing of our young is very damaging! To argue that pain and hurt don't affect people to the point of questioning their sexuality is very naive. A caring mother and father as head of the family in a married committed relationship is the best way to avoid these eventualities in the majority of cases. Increased marriage and lower divorce rates would help to reduce the number of people who feel a lack of control during childhood and give in to the resulting reprehensible lusts and power trips like Jimmy Saville. A loving family headed by a mother and a father also helps to strengthen and protect vulnerable people like Alison.

Last edited by BigD on 08-Nov-2012 at 11:00 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

As well as having a troubled family, Jimmy Savile was also Catholic. Not a fake Catholic, a Catholic that the Pope himself praised to high heaven as I mentioned before.

So given the high rate of numbers of Catholics given their status by the Pope who have raped children and given the already-made-clear-to-you-several-times fact that some good people come from bad homes and some bad people come from good homes, the only argument you are strengthening by this dreadful exploitation of recent events is that Christianity caused paedophilia.

Of course that is a nonsense, just as your intended claims are.

Now stop abusing these victims further by exploiting them for your own ends.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 08-Nov-2012 at 11:11 PM.

_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

Google Translate

@BigD

Quote:

Perhaps you failed to read post #1415

I not only read your reiteration of your lies, I responded to the lies that you reiterated.
Remember this? Quote:

Quote: persecuting Christians for living by their faith and then denying the implications of the ruling And once again you dishonestly paint yourself and your co-conspirators as the victims. How many christians have been jailed for the "crime" of being christians, or forced to undergo dubious psychiatric or medical "treatments" to "cure" them of religion. I can count them on the fingers of one foot. Stopping somebody from carrying out persecution is not in itself an act of persecution, just as opposing intolerance is not an act of intolerance. Giving homosexuals "equivalent protection in law" is a mean spirited, mealy mouthed way of avoiding granting full equality. Quote: The Wilkinson's had a clear policy of only allowing 'married' couples into their B&B and if the Wilkinsons had a clear policy of not allowing a heterosexual couple in without showing their marriage permits/wedding photographs/certificate from the Pope, that would also have been illegal. So would a policy of No Blacks, No Jews, No Gypsies etc. If you or anybody want to impose such policies in your own home that is your right, but a B&B establishment is a place of business and as such falls under the remit of anti-discrimination legislation.

You then go on to repeat the slippery slope fallacy that I have already called you out on. The evidence does not support your proposition, and if we waited as long as you suggest before making any advances in human rights, or basic civilsed behaviour we would still be debating whether to grant women the vote. Either that or we would still be debating whether we should commit heresy by making fire ourselves rather than waiting for divine intervention where our chosen deity strikes a tree with a lightning bolt.

Quote:

Let's not forget the evidence from Spain and the Netherlands that show they have suffered catastrophic reductions in marriage rates following the introduction of same-sex marriage! You can say that the rates were already dropping but they completely tailed off exponentially once marriage was redefined!

Good idea let's take a look at the evidence, and see just how disingenuous, and dishonest you really have become. In the light of this information, as well as that provided by BrianK from the statistics for the USA, I will once again ask you, where is the evidence that giving equality to homosexuals will destroy the concept of marriage.

Quote:

Two men or two women attempting to mirror a heterosexual 'married' lifestyle by pledging monogamy and publicly announcing their commitment for life might constitute the relationship we now call a 'civil partnership' but it does not constitute a 'marriage'.

That is indeed the current state of affairs, however once the new legislation comes into force everybodys long term commitment will be termed as marriage, and the privileged status of your theo-fascist alliance will have been further eroded.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

@T-J

Quote:

h, this argument's always made me laugh. I can just see the scenario now, the romantic scene, the couple, he goes on bended knee and proposes, and she says, 'well, I would, and I do love you, but you know, we will still pay 20% on VAT, and both our salaries are going to be in the 20p bracket... So, actually, nah.'...

Incentives can and do influence people who would otherwise live in a non-committed cohabitation arrangement which statistically increases the risk of children's parents splitting before their 5th birthday to one in three compared to about one in ten who are married! LINK

Further disincentivising marriage by making it on par with polygamous, homosexual and short term relationships will again decrease marriage rates to the detriment of the children raised in the resulting cohabiting and less stable/committed relationships.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Nimrod

Quote:

and if we waited as long as you suggest before making any advances in human rights,

You certainly are NOT reading all the posts otherwise you would by now understand that same-sex marriage is NOT A HUMAN RIGHT!

Telegraph: Court of Human Rights Ruling: Same-Sex marriage is not a human right

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

As well as having a troubled family, Jimmy Savile was also Catholic.

As stated before not ALL catholics are Christians. A lot of them worship Mary on par with Jesus and use a priest as an intercessor instead of the Holy Spirit. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that church ministers should be celibate and nowhere does the Bible condone paedophilia. Saville's less than healthy upbringing and weird emotional detachment from his mother and father is more to do with his perversion than his lip service to catholic icons and people who believe they are the spiritual successor to the Apostle Peter

Last edited by BigD on 08-Nov-2012 at 11:24 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@T-J

Quote:

Quote: Let's also not forget that in Brazil that a judge effectively legalised three-way relationship by giving marriage-like rights to a polygamous relationship because of civil partnership laws. Again, why the hell do you care what three people in Brazil get up to in their bedroom? It is a distinctly unhealthy attitude to take.

Q. What is the maximum penalty for polygamy?
A. Multiple mothers-in law!

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

@BigD

Quote:

Saville's less than healthy upbringing and weird emotional detachment from his mother and father...

Again, you can't just invent a life history for the man that fits your warped perception of reality and expect us to take you seriously.

Just drop it, surely you've now shown enough disrespect for these victims with this charade.

Quote:

Incentives can and do influence people who would otherwise live in a non-committed cohabitation arrangement which statistically increases the risk of children's parents splitting before their 5th birthday to one in three compared to about one in ten who are married! LINK

Statistics don't work that way. Couples that are most committed are probably already married. Couples that aren't committed aren't going to magically become committed if you give them 2% off their VAT or whatever stupid 'policy' is coming out of Tory HQ these days.

Your claim that marriage magically makes relationships more committed is based on a sampling bias - you're counting all your wavering non-committals in with the committed couples who've got married regardless of whatever bribe you might offer, and then claim a huge success for the bribe when most of the couples stay together - never mind that most of them were already so committed that the bribe had no effect!

Idiocy compounding ignorance.

Quote:

Further disincentivising marriage by making it on par with polygamous, homosexual and short term relationships will again decrease marriage rates to the detriment of the children raised in the resulting cohabiting and less stable/committed relationships.

No it won't.

Recognising same sex marriages will have no effect at all on mixed sex marriages.

Recognising polygamous relationships will have no effect at all on monogamous relationship.

And short-term relationships are totally irrelevant to the issue. Or at least they would be, if people like you would just stop campaigning against contraception use.

Quote:

understand that same-sex marriage is NOT A HUMAN RIGHT!

Understand that the requirements of the Strasbourg Court of Human Rights does not constitute the final word on what is and is not a human right.

The British Parliament is about to pass this bill into law in this country, and I for one am not willing to allow a cabal of shadowy, unelected European judges rule on what is and is not acceptable in our country - that's the usual line you get from those sort of newspapers, isn't it?

Bottom line is, the Strasbourg court finds its hands are tied by having to remain palatable to a large number of socially conservative, even reactionary states on the eastern fringe. We on the other hand are free to act based on what is right, not what is feasibly enforced across the entire continent.

And we will do that, equalising marriage because it is right and because no far-right palaeochristian operating on the fringes of polite society in rural Poland has any right to try and stop us.

@BigD

Quote:

You certainly are NOT reading all the posts otherwise you would by now understand that same-sex marriage is NOT A HUMAN RIGHT!

But freedom from persecution is, and so is freedom from discrimination. Even if that persecution and discrimination is carried out by a theo-fascist who believes that his religion gives him a privileged status not afforded to the rest of the worlds population.

Quote:

As stated before not ALL catholics are Christians.

Wrong. All catholics are christians, it is just that not all christians are catholics. Just because you personally do not agree with people, or get embarrassed by their actions, does not make you the worlds supreme arbiter and authority on who is, and is not, a christian.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

@BigD

So now even the Pope isn't a true Christian?

Either you are God incarnate, or a very deluded idiot. Guess which one I'm going for?

_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

Google Translate

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Nimrod Quote: and if we waited as long as you suggest before making any advances in human rights, You certainly are NOT reading all the posts otherwise you would by now understand that same-sex marriage is NOT A HUMAN RIGHT

and neither is any other type of marriage "a human right", marriage is nothing more than a concept that someone once came up with and some people choose to live by it's defined rules but in no way can marriage be called a "human right"…

In fact there is in reality no such thing in the very nature of life as "human rights", they are nothing more than ideologies created by some humans that some other humans choose use to guide their behaviour…

Simple fact is, if you happened to be wandering through the jungle one day and a lion came up and began eating you or some undiscovered tribe of pygmy cannibals decided to capture and eat you, all the human rights in the world no matter who agrees with them aint gonna save you, as they are nothing more than ideas/ concepts and mean sod all to lions or pygmy cannibals, just as in the reality of life they mean sod all either…

_________________

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @CritAnime Quote: That made me chuckle. Your using Jimmy Saville, a man that is been used for every argument under the sun to do with degredation of society (to the point that it renders arguments moot), as a spring board for one man one woman happy christian family where they raise the perfect child. Even though I could go to any public library and get a stacks of books on muderers and find that a big proportion come from "sterotypical loving christian family units" as one book put it (I like reading about stuff like this). The most disturbing part of the BBC Programme: Panorama: Jimmy Savile - What the BBC Knew, was the effect that Jimmy Saville's abuse had on some of his victims in the long run... ..Jimmy Saville gained access to hospitals and prisons as a volunteer porter due to his fame and influence. One former Broadmoor prison patient Alison Pink was abused in the high security prison while still in her teens. While she was sitting on the sofa watching Top of the Pops Jimmy Saville who was sitting on the floor beneath her reached up and casually put his hand inappropriately between her legs! This was a quick and short duration event but had long term affects. She has now had a sex change and is called Steven George. This is no doubt at least partially due to this abuse at the hands of this perverted man. The abuse and lack of care and nurturing of our young is very damaging! To argue that pain and hurt don't affect people to the point of questioning their sexuality is very naive. A caring mother and father as head of the family in a married committed relationship is the best way to avoid these eventualities in the majority of cases. Increased marriage and lower divorce rates would help to reduce the number of people who feel a lack of control during childhood and give in to the resulting reprehensible lusts and power trips like Jimmy Saville. A loving family headed by a mother and a father also helps to strengthen and protect vulnerable people like Alison.

Have you ever worked in a place like Broadmore? Have you ever cared for people like the patients in Boardmore? Do you have an understanding of what happens in someones head to get them admitted into a place like Broadmore? Because it seems to me your talking about something you have very little knowledge about. Because you would also know that Broadmore is a high security psychiatric hospital. Not a prison.

I HAVE worked with people that have mental health issues, I am a nurse. Who is to say that this person already didn't have some kind of underlying identity issue, relating to what got her into broadmore, before Jimmy Saville did this unspeakable thing. Who is to say her family didn't have anything to do with her already fragile mental state. By which I am guess she will have had what you would have concidered a proper family unit of one mother and one father. You do NOT know jack about what the cirumstances were before any of this. Nor can you comment on what the implications would be for anybody else who has been affected by this entire Jimmy Saville fiasco.

I am not defending him and I would not dare to or have any want to. But it seems to me your latching onto anything you can think of to try and defend this notion you have about family units. To the point that your now bringing in pedophilia and sexual abuse. Which I think is stretching things too far and taking this in a whole new and dark direction. In which your essentially saying anyone who has a same sex marriage will bring child molestation to the world.

I think you neeed to drop this because you have gone from eccentric mildy amusing to deploarbale levels of lunacy and indecency.

_________________
My personal blog - CritAnime.com

Admin at Commodore Gaming Wiki

@Nimrod

Quote:

Wrong. All catholics are christians,

Jesus came to save sinners (all of us) from our sin which condemns us all to hell. The only way to make us right with God was that a perfect sacrifice was made as atonement for our sins. Jesus had to live a perfect sinless life and die on a cross for our sins so that we'd be right with God. The only thing He expects from us is that we acknowledge this gift of eternal life, pray forgiveness for our sins, accept the Holy Spirit into our hearts and turn away from our sinful selfish lives and live for God. It is quite well summarised by The 4 Points;

1) God loves me
2) I have sinned
3) Jesus died for me
4) I need to decide to live for God

At no point do we have to follow the teachings of someone that is claiming to follow in the footsteps of the Apostle Peter. No mention is made in the Bible of a successor to the Apostle Peter continuing to lead all believers as the church grew. The Bile contains teachings on Elders and Deacons within individual churches but does not stipulate a global or even national leader!

Not all catholics are Christians because not all catholics have accepted that Jesus is their only way to God. Many try and work their way to God and many think telling a priest of all their sins is going to get them off the hook. Whether you consider yourself a cultural protestant or catholic does not make you a Christian as you have to be 'born again' and live your life to please God putting Him first in everything that you do and acknowledging that we are lost and sinful beings and have no hope were it not for the love and sacrificial love of Jesus Christ demonstrated by His death on the cross.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@CritAnime

Quote:

I think you neeed to drop this because you have gone from eccentric mildy amusing to deploarbale levels of lunacy and indecency.

Good, maybe your beginning to understand what a horrendous prospect the destruction of marriage is! If this example of families gone wrong is the only way to make you see the level of pain and suffering this inane and unwarranted redefinition will cause then so be it.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

WHOOOSH!!!


That was the sound of CritAnime 's post going right over your head...

_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

Google Translate

@BigD

WHAT A UTTER LOAD OF BOLLOCKS!!!

You using the misfortune of innocent people to defend some notion fo family and marriage. Which has NOTHING to do with with the argument anyway. Your sick if you think that one person abusing all these people can be the same as gay marriage. I think you need a spell in Broadmore if thats how you genuinly feel and see what life is actually like. I think your notions of what should be get shashed right out of the ball park.

You have seriously just crossed a massive line as far as I am concerned. I hope that you see sense on this one. I really do. Gay marriage is one thing and using accounts of abuse of this level to defend moot points is a completely different thing.

@SpaceDruid

It just shows that he is just one tracked on this. Bigotry of this level is something you won't have any luck of getting through because they have that many safty nets and arbitary arguemts thats it's best to just let them play in their own little world.

(so many spelling mistakes in this post because I was physicall shaking with anger because of the absolute lack of decency and respect shown by BigD to the victimes of one person.)

Last edited by CritAnime on 09-Nov-2012 at 12:45 AM.
Last edited by CritAnime on 09-Nov-2012 at 12:42 AM.
Last edited by CritAnime on 09-Nov-2012 at 12:39 AM.
Last edited by CritAnime on 09-Nov-2012 at 12:37 AM.

_________________
My personal blog - CritAnime.com

Admin at Commodore Gaming Wiki

@CritAnime

I'm convinced he is suffering from some form of psychosis which is the reason I stopped posting. I was drawn back by the revelations about Savile knowing D would twist the truth into his warped delusion.

I think it's pretty clear by now that none of your or anyone else's posts have managed to penetrate his barriers. Holding things up right in front of his face achieves nothing. Whenever you do anything like that, he defaults to Bible quotations or thumping in some effort to re-establish the roots that he clings onto.

_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

Google Translate

@SpaceDruid

I just find it sad that he has resorted to the sick depravity of one person to be the crux of his entire agrument.

_________________
My personal blog - CritAnime.com

Admin at Commodore Gaming Wiki