@Thread

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BigD wrote: @T-J Quote: Similarly, rates of marriage in countries such as Iceland, Sweden, the Czech Republic and Norway have been increasing over the past decade, for the first time since the seventies. Your summary is misleading; In 2004, Stanley Kurtz wrote: "Marriage is slowly dying in Scandinavia. A majority of children in Sweden and Norway are born out of wedlock. 60% of first-born children in Denmark have unmarried parents. Not coincidentally, these countries have have had something close to full gay marriage for a decade or more. Same-sex marriage has locked in and reinforced an existing Scandinavian trend towards the separation of marriage and parenthood. The Nordic family pattern - including gay marriage - is spreading across Europe. And by looking closely at it we can answer the key empirical question underlying the gay marriage debate. Will same-sex marriage undermine the institution of marriage? It already has. More precisely it has further undermined the institution. The separation of marriage from parenthood was increasing; gay marriage has widened the separation. Out-of-wedlock birthrates were rising; gay marriage has added to the factors pushing those rates higher. Instead of encouraging a society-wide return to marriage, Scandinavian gay marriage has driven home the message that marriage itself is outdated, and that virtually any family form including out-of-wedlock parenthood is acceptable." This proposed redefinition of marriage would be disastrous for marriage rates just as it will also be disastrous for the Conservative Party. Their support will all but vapourise in the next general election as their supporters desert them for UKIP (the UK Independence Party). The Telegraph: Conservative grassroots rail against gay marriage Quote: If the same-sex marriages are legalised by the end of 2013, the first gay weddings to be held in early 2014. Back in Tory heartlands, local party leaders are more worried about what happens the following year at the general election. Graham Allman, chairman of North West Leicestershire Conservative Association, said: “Feelings here are running very high, and the voting persuasions at the next election will be very fragile. “I’ve had many conversations with constituents and members of the association and they are considering alternatives. There’s a lean now towards Ukip, particularly for the European elections. “Cameron has put it through without properly considering his voters’ opinions. Many of them are conservative [with a small 'c’] traditionalists and they probably feel like they haven’t been listened to.” David Cameron: The man responsible for attempting to destroy marriage and the Tories! He cannot prevent the unintended consequences of redefining marriage damaging our society; BBC: Baroness Warsi queries gay marriage plan

The Government is giving credence to the July 2012 Policy Exchange report: What's in a Name? However, the report is full of errors. Evidence cited with regard to the UK is misleading. One 2009 Populus survey is quoted, in an attempt to disprove the oft heard claim that support for same-sex marriage is strongest among the liberal metropolitan elite: "Highest level of support are in the North East of England (81%), Yorkshire (70%), the West Midlands and London (both 69%). This sounds impressive. But the authors don't reveal the number of people polled in the North East of England - a grand total of 44 people. The number polled in Yorkshire and Humberside? 86. The number polled in the West Midlands? 94. This less than convincing. And the authors fail to mention the opinion polls which indicate that when the rights afforded to same-sex couples via the Civil-Partnerships are clearly explained, the majority of people in the UK do not think that marriage should be redefined for everyone else.

Last edited by BigD on 16-Dec-2012 at 05:58 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 16-Dec-2012 at 05:54 AM.

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@BigD

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Correction: some people are born with a predesignated weakness to same sex attraction which can rear its head under situation of family breakdown or an absent father figure

You are making up lies again There are a very large proportion of homosexuals raised in a loving family environment by heterosexual parents who have remained married to each other with no family breakdown and no absent father. There have also been millions of people who were raised during the last war, whose fathers were absent with no guarantee of safe return while the children lived through the blitz. But you would prefer to follow the idiotic circular logic preached by the likes of Mark Regnerus when he defined all people in his study who came from broken homes as homosexuals, and therefore implied that all homosexuals come from broken homes.

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It is despicable that you continue to push this agenda considering just a small minority of practising homosexuals think they should have the right to get married a same-sex partner.

So what is the magic number below which a small minority lose all right to exercise any of their own choices in life. Also what is the magic size of a minority where they suddenly get the privilege of dictating how the majority who do not blindly follow their mantra have to obey their diktat anyway.

This country is a democracy where the rights of ALL minorities are to be protected unless they infringe on the rights of others. As a result of this there is no such thing as an equality too far. You keep citing Wilberforce as a good christian however, unlike you, Wilberforce did not espouse the perpetuation of inequality. Neither did he go around randomly murdering or torturing peple for being different, so he can't have been "a real christian" as you put it.

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You are completely delusional if you cannot comprehend what you are actually advocating i.e. attempting to trash what remains of our tolerant society

The point that you are still incapable of understanding, is that the only reason that we have become a tolerant society is because we have turned our backs on the ideals of sanctimonious self-righteous hypocrites who acquire personal political power by preaching hate and prejudice in the name of caring and fairness.

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The next step, as has happened in the Netherlands and Brazil, is State recognition of plural relationships.

And once again you deliberately misrepresent the facts. Marriages performed in one country are frequently recognised in other countries. It was for this reason that young couples often eloped to Scotland where under 21 year olds were permitted to marry without parental consent. This continued until the age of adult responsibilty was lowered to 18 in England. Likewise in the Netherlands today While polygamous marriages cannot legally take place these marriages that take place in countries where more than one wife is permitted, such as Morocco, are accepted,

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Though considering the UK continues to murder close to 200,000 babies a year I don't think we deserve a pleasant 2% growth in our economy every year, do you?

An immature underdeveloped foetus is not a baby. If it was the "baby" of Savita Halappanavar, would have been delivered by caesarean section and both mother and child would be thriving... but instead they both died to satisfy somebody elses religious prejudices.
Also, it is because we choose to constrain population growth that we are able to maintain higher standards of living. This planet can no longer afford to have human population double every fifty years.

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The separation of marriage from parenthood was increasing; gay marriage has widened the separation

This has got to be the single most ridiculous piece ot trash thay I have had the displeasure to read. You cannot blame homosexuals for the rise in single parent families, because as you delight in telling us at every opportunity Homosexuals do not breed.

Last edited by Nimrod on 16-Dec-2012 at 03:57 PM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 16-Dec-2012 at 03:56 PM.

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Why is Secular Britian ruled by religious bureaucrats An important consideration in this debate.

@BigD

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In 2004, Stanley Kurtz wrote: "Marriage is slowly dying in Scandinavia. A majority of children in Sweden and Norway are born out of wedlock. 60% of first-born children in Denmark have unmarried parents

If we're really going to be 'our brother's keepers' you need to expand your myoptic view on marriage and instead ask where and how do citizens see quality of life. Where is the best quality of life in the world today? Consistently it's Sweden. Interesting enough Sweden also has one of the lowest marriage rates in the 1st world.

Let's put the question on it's head where are the highest marriage rates in the world? And what's the quality of life of those citizens? Maldives, Antigua are fairly high. But, so are Iran, Ethopia, and South Africa. It'd seem to me marriage may be important but there's no direct relation between marriage and quality within a society. And if we view Iran/Ethopia/South Africa there might actually be an inverse relationship.

Now personally I don't want marriage gone. But, what I can fairly say is it's one of many statistics leading to quality and happiness of life.

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This proposed redefinition of marriage would be disastrous for marriage rates

Again why do you ignore the USA where States that have equality in marriage are the lowest in divorce rates! And if we look at the happiness #s these States tend to be at the top too.

EDIT: Also the abortion rate is something you can be worried about. But, it has no direct (nor indirect) relationship on gay marriage so you're sliding off topic there, mate.

Last edited by BrianK on 16-Dec-2012 at 07:00 PM.

@BigD

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Your summary is misleading; In 2004, Stanley Kurtz wrote

Your reference to Kurtz is fatuous and circular. My articles were written in response to that very article by Kurtz, taking his claims that Scandinavia is experiencing a catastrophic decline in marriage apart and revealing them to be false. Based on faulty assumptions. Inaccurate. Wrong.

In short, and stripping away the diplomatic language we usually use, they were nothing but a barefaced lie.

Later on in my references, they also take his 'out of wedlock' panicmongering apart. Its true that the Scandinavians tend to have children out of wedlock. But in Denmark, 90% of children live with their parents who are married. Scandinavian marriages tend to occur shortly after the birth of the first child - they're born out of wedlock, but their parents then marry.

And you are in no position to judge them for this lifestyle. Or at least, I assume you're not the one without sin whose prerogative it is to cast the first stone.

Oh, and thanks for the photo of Dave, I'm sure we'd all forgotten what he looked like.

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Their support will all but vapourise in the next general election as their supporters desert them for UKIP (the UK Independence Party).

We're more likely to see a Liberal-Green coalition than we are to see UKIP holding any influence in 2015. The only impact they'll have is to rob the Tories of a few key votes in marginal seats, either by mopping up the far-right nuts like you, or by forcing the Tories to move further right and lose votes in the centre to other parties. Of course, I find the irony quite amusing, because the Tories could have nipped this in the bud and removed almost all strategic threat from UKIP if they'd upheld the Alternative Vote plan. As it is, they're opening the door to a Labour or Labour-led government.

@BrianK

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Why is Secular Britian ruled by religious bureaucrats

Because it suits the red team and the blue team to collude in order to preserve their special interests in the unelected upper house. The blue team get a remnant of about 150 of the aristocrats and the bishops. The red team get to stuff the house with party placemen and friendly faces. Only the concept of democratic accountability and representation by our peers actually suffers.

Last edited by T-J on 16-Dec-2012 at 08:18 PM.

@BigD
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Adrian Smith a Housing Trust manager was demoted and had his salary slashed by 40% because he said gay weddings in churches would be "an equality too far."

Are you sure it wasn't because he is one of the creepiest looking guys around. Your picture of him gave me the creeps man! Are you sure he is not a follower of Satan ?

@Thread

It looks like the Labour party are heading in the right direction by allowing a free vote for their MPs. This is the only sensible and fair way of voting on an issue of conscience and one that wasn't in any of the election manifestos or the last Queen's speech.

Telegraph: Labour split over gay marriage vote

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@BigD

It's almost as if you change your opinions depending on the latest article you read that supports your general point of view. Astonishing...

Oh and before you get too excited about this story, you might want to note that only 3 labour MP's have spoken against the change. That's out of 255.

If that's classified as a split, then I must have won the lottery based on me getting one of the numbers.

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@SpaceDruid

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Oh and before you get too excited about this story, you might want to note that only 3 labour MP's have spoken against the change. That's out of 255.

Since Labour MPs can vote as they choose they can as democracy dictates; represent the majority of their constituants (unless they represent Brighton & Hove ) and defend marriage as is their duty. It is simply undemocratic for MPs to disregard the public uproar against this shambolic attempt to destroy marriage. Let's continue to pray that just as the Tories are rebelling against Dave Cameron that Labour MPs would defy the weak willed Ed Miliband and vote to protect marriage. There's even hope that some Liberal MPs might see sense but I'm guessing they're too busy trying to legalise marijuana

Last edited by BigD on 18-Dec-2012 at 06:59 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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Jesus followed the moral law teachings of the Old Testament.

Are you sure. I gathered he was supposed to be against stoning people ?

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You're part of a group of non-Christians trying to tell a Christian which bits of the Bible to believe and which not to.

Pot, kettle black. Surely it those who spout the nonsense from this fantasy novel that decide to pick and choose, otherwise...

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Here's the crunch fella, if you add or take away from the Bible you are in a spot of bother;

As it frequently contradicts itself, you cannot surely believe all of it, otherwise you would be very confused. All that contradictory information would turn anyone who believed every bit of it into a blithering idiot. Surely even 'Christians' like yourself, have to choose which bits they think relevant and which are not when they say the exact opposite.

@BigD

What uproar? Barely a whisper all things considered...

AndyC

I tried to get a new scary avatar but compared to the image below its quite jolly;



I think this is more a BigD avatar than the one he has now !

@BillE

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I tried to get a new scary avatar but compared to the image below its quite jolly;

You display needless rudeness against a Godly man. No doubt you always knew Jimmy Saville was a pedo with your inbuilt 'creepiness meter'? But I doubt you have a problem with a white haired gentlemen donning a red suit and whiskers and bouncing your child on his knee at the local garden centre this Christmas. Get a life

Last edited by BigD on 18-Dec-2012 at 10:48 PM.

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@AndyC

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What uproar? Barely a whisper all things considered...

MP's mailbags full of complaints about the Government's handling of this debacle, a petition of over 620,000 against the plans and Cameron relying on Labour MPs and Liberal Democrats to save him from his own dissenting MPs. That's hardly the sound of silence. That's the sound of 'Team Cameron' sinking, the vociferous racket of the Liberals baying for the blood of the institution of marriage and the majority of the UK shouting back "NOT ON MY WATCH"!

Last edited by BigD on 18-Dec-2012 at 10:58 PM.

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

When you put it that way, it sounds even better!

Tell me, what lengths will you go to to protest parliament's inevitable legalisation of gay marriage?

AndyC

Last edited by AndyC on 19-Dec-2012 at 01:00 PM.

@BigD

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It is simply undemocratic for MPs to disregard the public uproar against this shambolic attempt to destroy marriage.

620,000 iterations of Donald Duck signing your little petition do not a public uproar make.

Also, this is a representative democracy, thank goodness. MPs are required to vote in the interests of their constituents, not to simply follow the ill-informed opinion of the man on the Clapham omnibus regarding everything.

And I am telling you, it is in *nobody's* interest to block this law, save a tiny fractional majority who get some sort of thrill out of controlling the sexual behaviour of others through law, like your own good self. Therefore I expect the vast majority of the red team to vote in favour of this law.

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Let's continue to pray that just as the Tories are rebelling against Dave Cameron that Labour MPs would defy the weak willed Ed Miliband and vote to protect marriage.

Who do you think you're preaching to? Everybody else on this thread opposes your position on this matter. I believe it would be more constructive if the rest of us were to pray that these poor, short-sighted MPs in the Conservative and Labour parties will someday come to accept their neighbours in all their diversity, and to love them all equally and treat them all equally under the law, as Jesus himself commanded that they do. Amen.

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There's even hope that some Liberal MPs might see sense but I'm guessing they're too busy trying to legalise marijuana

There aren't any Liberal MPs. However, the Liberal Democrat MPs are presently too busy attempting to remove a pointless restriction on personal and religious freedom to join with you in your attempt to... ah, yes - limit personal and religious freedom.

And re. marijuana? Yes, actually, let's bin this Prohibition rubbish and go with a solution that actually works.

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Cameron relying on Labour MPs and Liberal Democrats to save him from his own dissenting MPs. That's hardly the sound of silence. That's the sound of 'Team Cameron' sinking, the vociferous racket of the Liberals baying for the blood of the institution of marriage and the majority of the UK shouting back "NOT ON MY WATCH"!

Since when was 620,000 the majority of the UK? Hell, that wouldn't even be the majority of my home county, let alone the country!

The majority, some 60%, believe that equal marriage is the right thing to do.

@BigD

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But I doubt you have a problem with a white haired gentlemen donning a red suit and whiskers and bouncing your child on his knee at the local garden centre this Christmas. Get a life

You take your kids to see Santa in a garden centre? Now that's very creepy...



"Hey son, what do you want for Christmas?"
"A bike!"
"Don't be silly son, you'll be getting a spade or a deckchair."

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 19-Dec-2012 at 05:24 AM.

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@BigD

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You display needless rudeness against a Godly man.

Considering the actual history of his religion in this country, and throughout the world, there is no such thing as "needless rudeness" in making a robust defence of freedom from theo-fascist persecution. If your faith was as you claim it to be, a truly godly man would not be so discriminatory or prejudiced that he could express the term "an equality too far"
I am just grateful for the fact that my home is mine, cash bought and paid for, and I will never need to be dependent on this individuals willingness to carry out his duties equally and fairly, since he clearly finds these to be alien concepts.

You keep claiming that this legislation will destroy marriage, and you keep calling for politicians to save marriage however you have no evidence to support your claim that marriage is under threat. When this proposal is passed into law, I will still be married to the mother of my children. For me, nothing will change. If by any chance this law changes things for any of my sons, it will be a change for the better for them. they will be able to live by their own standards instead of being compelled to follow yours, but why should we live by your religion when you clearly refuse to live by mine.

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But I doubt you have a problem with a white haired gentlemen donning a red suit and whiskers and bouncing your child on his knee at the local garden centre this Christmas.

I would sooner trust an old age pensioner at the garden centre grotto than I would the local parish priest, But since my eldest little boy is pushing forty, and weighs fifteen stone, I suspect it is largely academic as even a preist isn't that much of an idiot

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When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

@BigD

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You display needless rudeness against a Godly man.

Come on, its not my fault you posted an image like it was from a Wanted poster is it ?
Godly ? Maybe he thinks he is, as he does look like some of those slimey American evangelist types that worship money.

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No doubt you always knew Jimmy Saville was a pedo

No, of course I did not. Unlike you I do not have a direct line to god. However his behaviour is very much like the evegelist types, all good and squeaky clean on the outside but away from the pretence rather evil in reality.

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But I doubt you have a problem with a white haired gentlemen donning a red suit and whiskers and bouncing your child on his knee

I do have a problem with that, on many levels.

Apart from the Christianisation of the winter solstice, it is now only a celebration to the god of money and commercial crassness. No doubt it is very popular with American evangelists that worship commercialism, but not to most people.

Also Saint Nicholas lived in Turkey, and never saw snow or the north pole in his life. He was from the coastal mediteranean region and not even from Cappadocia where they do have snow in winter but is blumming hot in the summer. So Santa Claus is nothing really to do with winter solstices nor your religion, its just commercial crass.

And no, I would not want some drunken bum that can only get a job at Christmas time to go near any children and bounce them on his knee.

Mind you nor would I want them to be indoctrinated by Mr Creepy who would no doubt scare them to death about rubbish such as the devil and the afterlife burning in torment. Now that *is* abusive. The guy in the red suit seems almost benign compared to that.

BTW. I do have a life, and enjoy it, its the only one I have and a priviledge to be around for such a short time compared to the time and vastness of the universe. Its you superstitious bunch that always want to seem to die and go to a "better place". The sooner this rapture thingy takes you all away the better, then humanity can live in peace without religious nutters causing wars and trying (unsuccessfully) to make everyone else miserable.

Get real, your religion is long past its believe by date. This is the 21st century not the middle ages.

@BillE

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BillE wrote: Get real, your religion is long past its believe by date.

Simple but a classic... I'm gonna be using that one a lot from now on...

Facebook here I come...

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