@Nimrod

Quote:

I also suggest that you think about how you personally choose to casually libel somebody, and think how much more offensive such a statement that you made in post #1371 implying that the only possible explanation was that I was involved in an incestuous relationship, was than the indication that you were not following the spirit of the teachings of your chosen "messiah"

Your own wife could have easily told you that the teachings in the Bible encourage you both to stay together. Just because she failed to reassure you of this and you jumped to other conclusions is not my fault. Don't expect everyone to have the low down on all you insecurities in regards to the Christian church!!

You claimed I'd have issue with your marriage when I don't and nor would any Bible believing church. The fact you have little respect for the teachings of the Bible despite your wife being a Christian is an issue the two of you should deal with together rather than air your issue on a public forum. I asked a cheeky question to highlight how off the mark your misconceptions about Biblical teaching on marriage are and your clearly stated your answer was no. You then opened up a bit more and your misconceptions became clearer. I could easily take offense at how little regard you hold for the teachings of the Bible and how much you claim to know about a book you haven't read but I don't. I simply attempt to address your misconceptions and to reassure you of the value of marriage.

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Have you not yet realised why people like me have learned to avoid and distrust people like you?

Maybe you could go on a Christianity Explored course or an Alpha course to learn more about your wife's faith. You have to live with a Christian so you'd be better off attempting to learn about what having a faith in Jesus Christ is all about rather than rubbishing it all the time.

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@BigD

Quote:

The fact you have little respect for the teachings of the Bible despite your wife being a Christian

It is not the teachings of your holy book that I have learned to be wary of, it is the hypocrisy of those who seek to justify their crimes in the name of that book. As Mohandas Gandhi put it "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

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You claimed I'd have issue with your marriage when I don't and nor would any Bible believing church

One of the reasons for my defensiveness is that christians have already attempted to force a wedge in my marriage. their motivation is the lines contained in your holy book that I have read and studied from cover to cover you may not want to acknowledge the words contained in 2 Corinthians 6:14 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" but they are there. Written by the same large hand that you cite in your hate speech against homosexuals.
Another example: 1 Corinthians 10:20-21 "But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." Implying that all non christians including Jews are actually satanists and must be avoided at all costs.

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I could easily take offense at how little regard you hold for the teachings of the Bible and how much you claim to know about a book you haven't read but I don't.

My refusal to follow your religious belief system is no more offensive than your refusal to change your religion to match mine. I do not make unfounded accusations of sexual perversion against you because you are of a different background than mine, and it would have been nice if a supposedly caring christian could mitigate his attitudes to match.

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Maybe you could go on a Christianity Explored course or an Alpha course to learn more about your wife's faith

So your solution to my wish not to be proselytised by christians is for me to attend a brainwashing session designed to turn me into a christian. I have listed the history of your religion, how they continually disposessed the Jews of their homes, and also torture and murder them. The massacre of Jews and Muslims in the siege of Jerusalem, the Alhambra decree, the genocide of American native populations, and countless other examples. As a result of what I know about people like you, I can categorically state that I do not wish to become a person like you. You may as well expect a rape victim to go on a course to learn what nice pleasant people rapists are.

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@Nimrod

Quote:

One of the reasons for my defensiveness is that christians have already attempted to force a wedge in my marriage. their motivation is the lines contained in your holy book that I have read and studied from cover to cover you may not want to acknowledge the words contained in 2 Corinthians 6:14 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

The verse that you have quoted is directed at Christians considering getting married or forming a business partnership. Your wife became a Christian AFTER marrying you and hence the verses that applies to you both are 1 Corinthians 7:12-14:

New Living Translation
Quote:

Now, I will speak to the rest of you, though I do not have a direct command from the Lord. If a Christian man has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to continue living with him, he must not leave her. And if a Christian woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to continue living with her, she must not leave him. For the Christian wife brings holiness to her marriage, and the Christian husband brings holiness to his marriage. Otherwise, your children would not be holy, but now they are holy.

Therefore, focus on the Biblical teaching for your situation. Any church that has issue with your relationship over 2 Corinthians 6:14 is taking the verse out of context as is it only applies to a Christian making a decision whether to marry an unbeliever or not.

Last edited by BigD on 03-Jan-2013 at 10:31 PM.

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@BigD

Quote:

Therefore, focus on the Biblical teaching for your situation

I have absolutely no interest in listening to the weasel words quoted by christians as they seek to justify their assaults and intimidation. Instead, I follow the simple line that actions speak louder than words. And having seen the history of christianity, you should spend less time telling the rest of us how we should live our lives, and a lot more time and effort apologising for the crimes against humanity committed in your name, as well as the offensive nature of your own personal treatment of others.

You knew nothing of why I felt threatened by your attitude and therefore automatically assumed the worst possible scenario as a means of demonising somebody who did not slavishly follow your own narrow view of the world.

This attitude is mirrored in your treatment of homosexuals. Like me you do not wish to enter into a homosexual relationship, but where I simply remain in a heterosexual relationship and live my life unthreatened by people who choose a different path to myself, you seek to prevent others from making their own choices in life, and seek to enforce your prejudices on to others.

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@Nimrod

Quote:

Like me you do not wish to enter into a homosexual relationship, but where I simply remain in a heterosexual relationship and live my life unthreatened by people who choose a different path to myself, you seek to prevent others from making their own choices in life, and seek to enforce your prejudices on to others.

The difference between you and me is that you do not value marriage enough to defend it when it has come under attack. It faces complete redefinition and a future where it will fade into insignificance as it is lowered to a position no more special than any other relationship, hence why should people bother to tie the knot in your twisted version of the future?!

Marriage rates have fallen catastrophically in the Netherlands and Spain following redefinition. Do you really think that is going to benefit our society? This doesn't just effect you and you individualistic lifestyle this effects the entire society and I wish you'd wake up to that fact.

@SpaceDruid

Grow up. I don't put up childish pictures of your hero Richard Dawkins in weird cartoon fictions, so I don't see why you bother attempting to blaspheme against and denigrate our Lord and Saviour

You've obviously run out of arguments

Last edited by BigD on 05-Jan-2013 at 11:27 PM.

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@BigD

You mean the spanish marriage rates that had nothing to do with their crumbeling economy. (http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2012/12/13/did-marriage-equality-scare-off-spains-heterosexuals/) Also it is worth mentioning that there has been NO actual study to show that the legilastion of same-sex-marriage has had anything to do with the decrease in marriage rates (http://fullfact.org/factchecks/same_sex_marriage_rate_heterosexual_straight_gay-28656). However people like yourself seem to think that this coincidence just happens to be the bit of evidence you need in oder to proclaim same-sex-marriage as the evil that you think it is. It doesn't matter that there has been a general decline in the rates of marriage over the course of decades. It also doesn't matter to you that the economy has a lot to do with how people behave. Especially with regards to how people react to marriage.

You also have to understand that there is a growing number of people that will put off marriage in order to further a career or do other things in their life. I know plenty of people who just don't feel marriage is the be all and end all of life. To be honest I felt the same until I met my wife and we married because we felt we were financially stable enough to do it. Simply marrying out of religious necessity shouldn't factor into how the country runs as a whole. Not everyone is a christian or follows a religeous faith.

I heard an interesting statement in an argument, to which the main bulk of the argument eludes my memory, on the radio. In it one woman stated "God is the leader of our church not the state. So why is the state trying to force things upon us". To me that is a very valid point. But in our case this can also be flipped. Politicians makes decisions that affect our daily lives. So why should the church try to impose it's views upon those that do not want it?

Seems pretty simple to me.

Also both myself and my wife do not feel threatened by gay marriage. We both support gay marriage.

Last edited by CritAnime on 06-Jan-2013 at 01:57 AM.
Last edited by CritAnime on 06-Jan-2013 at 01:57 AM.

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@BigD

Quote:

Grow up. I don't put up childish pictures of your hero Richard Dawkins in weird cartoon fictions, so I don't see why you bother attempting to blaspheme against and denigrate our Lord and Saviour You've obviously run out of arguments

First off, atheism isn't a religion. We don't all follow other atheists like you do to your religious masters. Dawkins isn't my hero, though I do have a great deal of respect for a man openly speaking out against religion on a world stage. Plenty who have done this have been murdered by religious extremists, or people with low tolerance to forward thinking.

Secondly, stop saying "our" lord. He's your lord, not mine. If he was real, I would fight him with every part of my soul as he is utterly evil and sick, so there will never be a time where he becomes "our" lord.

Thirdly, you are the one that for most of this thread have been having a hissy fit from your pram because you aren't getting to be the spoilt child your ridiculous beliefs made you think you could be.

And fourthly, I haven't run out of arguments, I've got bored of having to repeat them over and over. Whenever you introduce new ones, I've be more committed, in the meantime, I shall continue to mock you at every turn via images as it requires less effort.

And fifthly, I thought it was a funny comic, so there!

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And have another one...

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@BigD

Quote:

The difference between you and me is that you do not value marriage enough to defend it when it has come under attack.

Just as you did not know who I was married to when you made the vile implication that I was involved in an incestuous relationship so you know nothing about how I defended my marriage from the christian who tried to force a wedge between my wife and myself. It was a christian who threatened the sanctity my marriage, not a homosexual, and it was a non-christian who took the steps needed to defend the "one man + one woman, for life" nature of my marriage. This is a simple historical fact that all of your lies and weasel words selectively misquoted from your chosen holy book cannot alter.

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It faces complete redefinition and a future where it will fade into insignificance as it is lowered to a position no more special than any other relationship

If the concept of marriage did not predate christianity, only existed within the bounds of christianity, and had never been amended in the last two thousand years, I would possibly agree with you. However none of these conditions is true. What is true however is that christians have refused to recognise other cultures marriage rituals, have changed their views on interracial marriage and no longer hold a monopoly on carrying out marriages. There were three major marriage acts in the last century that redefined who could and could not marry, and people still get married despite what you claim about redefinitions "destroying" the concept of marriage.

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Marriage rates have fallen catastrophically in the Netherlands and Spain following redefinition.

You have already been told that the marriage rates were falling regardless of the changes in legislation giving equal rights to a minority group. Despite this you choose to continue to perpetuate a known lie. Do you know what this defines you as by the rules of your own religion. The thing that you see as an attack is the simple fact that in a democracy my opinion carries no less value than yours, and you do not qualify for some divine veto because of your invisible friend. Like many theo-fascist fundamentalists, you are anti-democratic.

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This doesn't just effect you and you individualistic lifestyle this effects the entire society and I wish you'd wake up to that fact.

The only ones affected by this change in the law is those who have lost the privilege of being allowed to interfere in ther private lives of other people. You no longer have the authority to impose your own narrow perceptions of right and wrong on to other people.

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Grow up. I don't put up childish pictures of your hero Richard Dawkins in weird cartoon fictions

You are quite correct, christians do not use imaginative cartoons to lampoon those who seek a means of excusing inexcusable behaviour, instead they resort to torture and murder of any who do not slavishly obey doctrine. Unlike religious fundamentalists, Dawkins has never issued a fatwa against dissenters, nor has he set up an inquisition forcing people to recant scientific discoveries because they contradict religious dogma. Dawkins is just an ordinary man, who states his opinion on a range of subjects when asked. Unlike religious groups, there are no pairs of atheists going around knocking on doors trying to spread the message so that people have to hide out of sight of the windows and pretend to be out.

Last edited by Nimrod on 06-Jan-2013 at 06:51 PM.

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@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Nimrod The difference between you and me is that you do not value marriage enough to defend it when it has come under attack.

Marriage under your religion is not under attack. No one is seeking to tell your church who they have to marry.


Quote:

It faces complete redefinition and a future where it will fade into insignificance as it is lowered to a position no more special than any other relationship, hence why should people bother to tie the knot in your twisted version of the future?!

So marriage will be no more special than my relationship with a bartender that I see every few weeks while out having a few pints watching football? Please.

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@BigD

Quote:

The difference between you and me is that you do not value marriage enough to defend it when it has come under attack. It faces complete redefinition and a future where it will fade into insignificance as it is lowered to a position no more special than any other relationship, hence why should people bother to tie the knot in your twisted version of the future?!

The Definition of Marriage has changed throughout the years. Gay marriage was legal in Rome. It was Christians around 342 that outlawed the practice. The Bible itself is a good example of changes in the definition of marriage. And our own societies prevented slaves from marrying, prevented interracial marriage, etc. So it's not like marriage has been static and unchanging.

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Marriage rates have fallen catastrophically in the Netherlands and Spain following redefinition. Do you really think that is going to benefit our society?

Interestingly enough Denmark citizens poll as one of the happiest in the world. Sweden, one of the lowest marriage rates in Europe, again polls as one of the happiest peoples in the world. Going back to the USA we see positives in the States with gay marriage - such as less divorce, less single parent homes, and higher incomes - than non-gay marriage States. Statistically it turns out the lowest rates of marriage exist in happier societies. Personally marriage is one of many characteristics of happiness in society. OTOH societies with very high rates of straight only marriage are often accompanied by dictatorial systems enforcing and mandating marriage. And in turn a lower happiness results.

@BigD

I saw this and thought of you.

If/when gay marriage is legalised in the UK and you want to find a new country to live in where good upstanding Christian values are held sacred by those free and rational thinkers who have the good of mankind in their hearts, why not try moving to Cameroon?

Two men jailed for ‘looking gay’ after ordering Bailey’s Irish Cream

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Ref the case that went to the European courts

Quote:

British Airways employee Nadia Eweida suffered discrimination at work over her Christian beliefs, European judges rule, but three others lose their cases http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21025332 "The message coming from Strasbourg is that although people are entitled to hold religious views, that right is severely limited in the workplace when it comes into conflict with the rights of other people. The judgement also hands considerable discretion to employers to set reasonable policies and then insist that employees follow them whatever their religious beliefs."

Which seems about right to me. I never understood why wearing a cross on a aircraft would be offensive or dangerous.

I wasn't the only one to think that either, British Airways thought so and changed their uniform policy 6 years ago. Meaning for the last six years she's been able to wear her cross openly. The case she brought was an historical one.

So can we finally drop this ridiculous claim of yours BigD, that you are being persecuted for your beliefs?

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 15-Jan-2013 at 04:23 PM.

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@SpaceDruid

The most relevant case to Christian persecution in the UK of the 4 individuals being ruled upon today in the European Court was that of Lillian Ladele's case. The judges voted 3 to 2 to keep the UK ruling of discrimination against her in the work place. Whether you wear a cross or not does not make you a Christian but being able to live out a Christian life at work is far more important. A life that was denied Lillian when we was not accommodated during her work as a registrar for Islington Council!

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@BigD

The highest human court has just disagreed with you.

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@BigD

Did Lillian Ladele ask to be transferred to another job when the new job description came in to conflict with her beliefs?

@Rob & SpaceDruid

I don't see that anyone should be forced to conduct Civil Partnership Ceremonies if they entered the job to conduct marriage ceremonies. Equality doesn't equal same and it doesn't mean that a Christian with a desire to marry people will have any desire to conduct same-sex unions (equal in law but not the same and never will be)! And it is discrimination to force a Christian from their job just because civil partnerships are deemed to be very similar to marriages. To a Christian they're not, they are legally equivalent but they are NOT the same.

This blatant disregard for employees with conscientious objections in the work place will only lead to more persecution should marriage be redefined! If same-sex couples want a state recognised union fine it's here and it's called a civil partnership, but there is no reason to force people to preside over ceremonies cannot condone on grounds of their faith. There are enough liberal types who are prepared to 'go with the flow' so back off Christians that want no part in formalising this marriage aping institution.

Reassurances were given that Civil Partnerships would not lead to a redefinition of marriage back in 2005 and guess what the promises were not worth pittance. I fail to see how any assurance quadruple lock or otherwise is going to stop Christian teachers being dismissed, Hospital Chaplins facing disciplinaries and more Christian registrars losing their jobs. But hey it's not persecution in your view because they're still allowed to wear a cross as they stand in the dole queue

Last edited by BigD on 15-Jan-2013 at 11:13 PM.

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@BigD

This woman was employed to carry out the policies of her employer. She failed in her duty. In this case the woman blocked the government from conducting business. The woman places her God above all, and that's fine for her. Unfortunately, we don't nor do the employer. It appears you'd rather discriminate against the democracy than against this woman. Now freedom of speech enables you to hold and express that opinion. It also enables me to disagree with you and state you are wrong. And you are.

We can look at history and see that when blacks could get married some Christians stood against that. They lost their jobs. That when mixed race couples got married, Christians stood against that. They lost their jobs. So indeed you are right this will impact some Christians. What you overlook, or don't mention, is today we're impacting gays. Another set of people. You choose Christians who discriminate. I choose Christian's who don't discriminate + gays.

The State should recognize my love equally with your love. It can't measure love in anyway so it hasto allow us to define it the way we feel is best suited for us. If I think this person is right for marrying and they me, then so be it. No matter the sex.

Also, don't forget society isn't only for Christians or Christian conventions. Societies are for everyone no matter their God. So, your or anyone else's God doesn't get to trump the system. If you want God to trump then go to a nation where he does, Vatican City is one example.