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SpaceDruid 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 17-Jan-2013 16:30:40
#1821 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2007
Posts: 1748
From: Inside the mind of a cow on a planet that's flying through space at 242.334765 miles per second.

@BigD

Quote:

You have not decided to debate my point that the Bible needs careful study to understand the context and meaning of some passages.


You are doing what you always do when faced with simple questions. You are trying to muddy the waters to avoid answering them.

On the one hand, when being asked about something in the Bible that you do not follow, you claim as above, that the information isn't clear and it is open to interpretation.

On the other hand, when you are trying to make a claim, you say the Bible is perfectly clear in it's intention and needs no interpretation.

As seen in the following...

Quote:

The teachings on marriage and homosexuality however seem quite clear;

Genesis 2:24 (New International Version)
Quote:
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.


Seems pretty clear what the definition should be right there!


It says many times in the Bible, both old and new Testaments about womans place in society, yet you have chosen to "understand the context and meaning" in such a way that you no longer follow them and instead have embraced modern thinking on equality.

Then, you have chosen ONE REFERENCE from one of the most self contradictory parts of the Bible (Genesis) to have absolute unquestionable meaning.

Surely this level of hypocrisy should be apparent, even to you!




Oh and to address the quote from Genesis, where does it actually say marriage and where does it actually say same sexes can't do the same?

To give some context, the part preceding your quote goes

The man said,

“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”

This is about sex. Not marriage. It's about a man giving birth to a woman after "being as one" It's got nothing at all to do with marriage. this is Genesis trying to explain the world first human reproduction followed by the world first sex instruction manual.

So do you wish to repeat your claim that it...

Quote:

Seems pretty clear what the definition should be right there!


? Really?


Quote:

You've yet to demonstrate how that is the case beyond the fact you think that homosexuals can form life long unions on par with marriage, (SNIP the same old circular claims you keep making that have not stood up to scrutiny)


See D, this has nothing to do with the Bible or your religion. You are trying to justify your beliefs about homosexuality by trying to only find bad in them, while ignoring the bad in heterosexual couples.

Hetro or Homo, married or single, no human is infallible. Yet in this entire post you've spend a great deal of time showing the faults of homosexual people without applying the same rules to heterosexual people. JUST LIKE YOU DID ABOVE with Biblical verse.

It has already been demonstrated many times in this thread that there is no difference between gay and straight couples regarding infidelity, that the more religious your part of the world, the more likely you are to divorce, have a baby out of wedlock, catch an STD and all the other things you've tried to pin on gay society.

Then you've tried to claim it was a choice and that people can be "cured" of their homosexual urges, which has also shown not to be true.

If you really are a religious man and you really do follow the teachings of Jesus then you own it to yourself to stop trying to deceive yourself about this. You have not managed to do so to anyone else on this thread, but yet you keep trying. It's yourself you are trying to convince.

I know this because you aren't the first person to do this. Not by a longshot. You believe (or at least try to) that the Bible is the word of your God. You believe in the creation myth. At every turn you see things that contradict your belief and your try to find ways to discredit them in your own mind.

By claiming gay people have chosen to be gay, you are shifting the "blame" to the human side, making human weakness responsible, not your God. After all, how can God be responsible? He condemns them, so it must have been their human choice? Right? God can't have made them that way, that's a contradiction.

Society has now changed to the point where the majority of people now see gay equality as a natural step, but you think somehow a group of people (liberal elites) have secretly come together to distort things in some master plan and that all the gay people are following an obscure text written in the early 1970's by a bunch of radicals is somehow the mandate for gay people everywhere.

Don't you see how crazy you sound?

It's a recurring theme through all of your posts. If a Christian shows more liberal views than you, they are not true Christians. If a science shows the world is much older than the Bible claims then the science must be wrong, not the Bible.

Yet at the very same time you are doing this, YOU have already decided parts of the Bible are wrong. That's why your wife works, you post on Sundays, you wear clothes made of more than one cloth, you don't have slaves, and all the other parts of the Bible you no longer follow.

D, stop your hypocrisy.

The Bible is very clear about this. No context needs to be figured out.

Matthew 23:28

In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Peter 2:1
Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 17-Jan-2013 at 04:33 PM.

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AndyC 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 17-Jan-2013 17:05:19
#1822 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2002
Posts: 180
From: Edinburgh

@SpaceDruid

Amen to that. Best post on this thread.

AndyC

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Nimrod 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 17-Jan-2013 18:58:42
#1823 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD

Quote:
Lillian Ladele's case is further evidence that the Government's protections for churches (quadruple or otherwise) are not worth the paper they are to be written on
The spokesman for a privileged group is claiming that the removal of that priviliged status is unfair, because their invisible friend allows christians to be as obnoxious and prejudiced as they want, and the rest of us have to put up with it because they have forgiven themselves of all crimes. You still see it as my fault that you called me a pervert, because I am not a christian.
Compare the fears of what a biased observer claims could happen with the historical record of how kindly and benevolently christians have treated non christians and different christians through history.

It is exactly because of this factual history that I say Adolf Hitler was a model christian. His persecution of religious groups including Jehovas Witnesses and Jews, his persecution of physically and mentally handicapped people, his persecution of homosexuals, political opponents, racial minorities etc echoes the true history of christianity.

And a christian vicar refused a funeral service to your hero Granville Sharp.

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BigD 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 17-Jan-2013 19:44:55
#1824 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@Nimrod

Quote:
And a christian vicar refused a funeral service to your hero Granville Sharp.


Yeah, just goes to show how many hypocrites there in this world going around pretending they're Christians while blessing homosexual unions as if their God ordained marriages. CofE vicars disrespecting non-conformists is again not a new thing (but then wearing a dog collar doesn't necessarily mean you 'born again' anyway) nor is pretending you're pro-marriage while being responsible for its complete destruction (the last one is aimed squarely at are good friend Dave Cameron).

It's a screwed up country, but saying people like Lillian Ladele would be privileged if she was allowed to keep her job and act in line with her deeply held Christian beliefs is crazy. Common sense accommodation to alow her to act in line with her faith was order of the day for Islington Council and they screwed up big time. Probably because they were trying to win a Stonewall award or something!

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BrianK 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 17-Jan-2013 20:50:14
#1825 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

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Nimrod 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 17-Jan-2013 21:12:47
#1826 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD

Quote:
Yeah, just goes to show how many hypocrites there in this world going around pretending they're Christians
You never spoke a truer word. And the biggest offender that I can cite is somebody called BigD. This arrogant self righteous individual thinks that he, and he alone can decide what is right and what is wrong, because the 7,000,000,000 other people on the planet are not as holy as he is. He also thinks that he has divine authority to be as abusive as he wishes, accusing people of being a pervert, and getting an automatic "get out of jail free" card that means he doesn't have to do the decent thing and apologise for his offensive speech because he told his deity to absolve him of all blame.

You also feel free to repeatedly tell lies and again demand your deity give you carte blanche. It is arrogant people like you who choose to justify the record of murder torture and genocide as "for the greater good".

I am not saying that keeping a job is somehow a privilege, Lilian Ladele wanted to pick and choose what parts of her duties she would carry out. I do not have that privilege, and nobody that I know of has that privilege. She would not be permitted to refuse to perform a marriage between a mixed faith couple even though it is against the beliefs of your sort of christians, and she would also not be allowed to refuse to officiate in a mixed race marriage. So why does she suddenly get immunity for refusing to do the job that all of her fellow workers have to perform.

If you go to a supermarket and buy a bottle of communion wine is an islamic checkout girl within her rights to refuse to serve you because drinking alcohol is a breach of her religion.

Quote:
Common sense accommodation to alow her to act in line with her faith was order of the day for Islington Council and they screwed up big time
By this I assume that you believe that Islington council as the employer should always cave in to the petty demands of any selfish skiver who chooses to cite "religious beliefs" as justification for demanding privileged status over fellow workers. Just for your enlightenment the judges do not agree that the employer "screwed up" Five judges decided against Ladele, and that is a greater number than the two who decided in her favour. But of course Theofascists do not support the principles of democracy because their invisible friend cannot exercise a veto.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 17-Jan-2013 21:46:52
#1827 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@fairlanefastback

He said he'd butt out of this thread and he should have stuck to his word because he seems to think he no longer needs to debate a change to the definition of marriage despite it being a very controversial issue that in no way commands an automatic pass through parliament.



He seems to be debating. You seem to be avoiding valid points. No one is trying to change your religion's definition. Its rather offensive that you try to push that religious definition on a government in the 21st century. Its a slippery slope. One day the religion of the majority in the UK may no longer be Christian. All of a sudden then you'll be against a religion having a say in civil definitions.

Quote:
At no point can he justify that statement that I treat women as second class citizens.


I believe the perfectly valid point raised was that you pick and choose what you believe to be valid from your own Bible. You have constantly avoided this because if you admit that women should be treated equally now due to the changing times you know you fail completely on your argument that gays don't deserve equal rights.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 17-Jan-2013 21:53:44
#1828 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@BrianK

Let's be honest even if the legal definition of marriage was redefined, we'd all know that same-sex marriage was just a sham and not reflective of the special union one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.


No, we would not all know its a sham. Shame on you for saying otherwise.

Quote:

And for the record, there is no such thing as Christians who support redefining marriage.


Its true that no Christians support same sex marriage within their church as a religious ceremony/sacrament. However, there are a vast number of Christians that support same sex marriage be performed by the state in a civil ceremony. Its called supporting equal human rights.

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BigD 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 17-Jan-2013 22:02:23
#1829 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@fairlanefastback

Quote:
Its called supporting equal human rights.


Wrong again. Homosexual marriage is not a human right!

The Telegraph: European Court rules that homosexual is NOT a human right

Quote:
the judges in Strasbourg said: "The European Convention on Human Rights does not require member states’ governments to grant same-sex couples access to marriage."

With regard to married couples, the court considers that in view of the social, personal, and legal consequences of marriage, the applicants’ legal situation could not be said to be comparable to that of married couples," the judges added.

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SpaceDruid 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 17-Jan-2013 23:19:17
#1830 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2007
Posts: 1748
From: Inside the mind of a cow on a planet that's flying through space at 242.334765 miles per second.

@BigD

So are you going to just keep doing this?

You make a post, somebody proves it to be nonsensical, you pretend the post didn't happen and make no reference to it (presumably because you have no answer for it). Then you repeat the claim, this time using words the person who replied to your earlier post used, then you try to argue against that person as if it was you that came up with the idea.

At least it shows you actually read the post.

D, you are standing naked on a pedestal in front of the world. Everyone looking at you can see you are a fraud. You lie to us in some very misguided attempt to appear like you know your own mind and then prove you don't by speaking.

The only one you are fooling is yourself. And I'm not sure you are even doing that, as your actions would seem to suggest that you really know you are wrong. You just don't want to admit it to yourself because you are frightened your whole belief structure is a house of cards.

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BigD 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 18-Jan-2013 0:12:03
#1831 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@SpaceDruid

Quote:
The only one you are fooling is yourself. And I'm not sure you are even doing that, as your actions would seem to suggest that you really know you are wrong. You just don't want to admit it to yourself because you are frightened your whole belief structure is a house of cards.


Don't be such an arrogant atheist. Your belief structure is as much a faith position as mine (more so if anything). Stick to debating marriage or butt off the thread as promised. Marriage is worth keeping and civil partnerships are fine for the few hundred homosexuals that want them every year. Marriage is fine the way it is and you'd defend it if you knew what was good for this country. But of course you live in space where no one can hear you spout atheistic pompous statements masquerading as facts!

Last edited by BigD on 18-Jan-2013 at 12:13 AM.

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SpaceDruid 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 18-Jan-2013 1:37:23
#1832 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2007
Posts: 1748
From: Inside the mind of a cow on a planet that's flying through space at 242.334765 miles per second.

@BigD

Quote:

Don't be such an arrogant atheist. Your belief structure is as much a faith position as mine (more so if anything).


There is NOTHING faith based about atheism. theism is the belief in something, atheism is non belief. We were all born atheist. At some point in your life, you began to believe. I didn't

I don't believe there is no god, I don't believe there is.

faith
noun
strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof:

I require proof, there is none. therefore I don't believe. Faith has no place in my life.

And if you are going to bring arrogance into it. I don't claim to speak on behalf of a god.

Quote:

Stick to debating marriage or butt off the thread as promised.


I didn't promise anything. You only mention it now because thanks to fairlanefastback joining this thread, you had cause to reread this thread in an effort to find ammunition to help your cause and you read my words. Yet again you try to use an others words as your own (and completely misunderstanding their original use.

I stopped posting on this thread because I suspect you are mentally ill and I was uneasy at how easy it was to mock you. But since then, you've ramped up the lies and deceit and found I could no longer stay silent.

Quote:

Marriage is worth keeping blah blah blah.


When you post something new, I will address it. I, as well as many others on this thread have already addressed everything you've thus far claimed and proven it to be false. Your continual repeating of falsehoods will not make them anymore true today than they were yesterday.

The only person here with a problem with marriage is you. You claim ownership of it despite marriage predating your religion by hundreds, if not thousands of years. Your religion has changed the meaning of marriage many times during it's existence, a FACT you don't seem to be able, or willing to accept. What more is there to be said?

This proposal isn't even anything to do with religion. It's a matter of law. When you got married, as well as your religious ceremony, you had to sign a legal document. The only thing being changed is the legal document that has nothing to do with religion. We've been through all of this. You abandoning an argument and then trying to restart it from the beginning is never going to change the outcome. Why do yo insist on doing it?

Quote:

But of course you live in space where no one can hear you spout atheistic pompous statements masquerading as facts!


Get your facts straight! I live on Earth inside the body of a cow. What? It's no more ridiculous than what you claim is true...

Oh yeah and you've yet to explain why you don't follow all the rules in the Bible equally. Skirt around the answer as many times as you like, I'll keep asking.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 18-Jan-2013 at 01:45 AM.

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Franko 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 18-Jan-2013 2:14:02
#1833 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Jun-2010
Posts: 2809
From: Unknown

I interrupt this thread just to say...

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SpaceDruid 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 18-Jan-2013 9:34:21
#1834 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2007
Posts: 1748
From: Inside the mind of a cow on a planet that's flying through space at 242.334765 miles per second.

@Franko

Glad to see you back man.

Though I did notice you forgot to shake at the end of your wee. Not sure if you washed your hands either.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 18-Jan-2013 16:20:12
#1835 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@fairlanefastback

Quote:
Its called supporting equal human rights.


Wrong again. Homosexual marriage is not a human right!


Sure it is, it just has not been universally won....yet. Bigots are merely delaying the inevitable.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 18-Jan-2013 at 04:21 PM.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 18-Jan-2013 16:22:38
#1836 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote:
@BigD

The only one you are fooling is yourself. And I'm not sure you are even doing that, as your actions would seem to suggest that you really know you are wrong. You just don't want to admit it to yourself because you are frightened your whole belief structure is a house of cards.


You hit the nail on the head!

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fairlanefastback 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 18-Jan-2013 16:26:58
#1837 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@SpaceDruid


Don't be such an arrogant atheist.


You are the one being arrogant actually, insisting that your religion's definition should be your government's definition even though not all citizens share your religious views. The good news is you will lose in the long run.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 18-Jan-2013 at 04:27 PM.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 18-Jan-2013 16:32:12
#1838 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote:
@BigD

There is NOTHING faith based about atheism. theism is the belief in something, atheism is non belief.

...

I don't believe there is no god, I don't believe there is.



Atheism though states it is SURE there is no god, which is as misguided as saying one is SURE there is a god. I think you sound more like an agnostic. Agnostics say it is inherently unknowable whether a god exists or ever existed.

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CritAnime 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 18-Jan-2013 17:15:41
#1839 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2011
Posts: 735
From: UK

@fairlanefastback

I will confuse BigD even more and say I am a apatheist atheist. I don't believe in a God/gods and I don't believe in the supernatural or other such things. But I have apathy towards both my own atheism and religion in general. I generally only refer to the fact I am atheist if someone like BigD decides to ask me.

I really don't get why this whole debate is been muddied by religion anyway. I couldn't get married in a church, I pointed this out to him long ago, because I don't believe in a God so the priest would be within his right to refuse me. If a Church really feels that a gays couple can't get married then it should be the same case. They should be free to refuse and be free of any consequence from it. But if a church decides to allow it then the same rules should apply and they should be able to do it without fear of retribution from small minded people.

And state run institutions, such as registry offices, should do it along with the various other services they provide. If a registra has issues because of "conscience" conflicts then really they should question if they are in the right job. At the end of the day, and again I pointed this out to him, they area employed to do a job. It would be a breach of contract otherwise.

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SpaceDruid 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 18-Jan-2013 17:46:02
#1840 ]
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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

Atheism though states it is SURE there is no god, which is as misguided as saying one is SURE there is a god. I think you sound more like an agnostic. Agnostics say it is inherently unknowable whether a god exists or ever existed.


You are inaccurate there with the definition, but partially right.

Is there a god? I have absolutely no reason to think there is anymore than I have to think there is a unicorn that farts rainbows at the centre of the Earth. I don't have a belief that there is no god, that would imply there was a reason to believe that there might be.

Do you believe the colour pink is the secret to all knowing?
If no, is it because you believe the colour pink ISN'T the secret to all knowing?
Or is it simply not a factor in your thought process?

For a far better explanation of the various terms used, consult the Atheism FAQ in Reddit That's a very good source for everything you wanted to know about non-religion, but were too afraid to ask.

Reddit is a recent discovery for me (it's not easy surfing when you are a cow), so this might be old news to you.

Here's a relevant quote on the subject of agnostics

Quote:

"How does agnosticism differ from atheism?

Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. One can be agnostic (i.e., not know for certain whether gods exist or not) and also be atheist or theist (i.e., evaluate the probability of a god's existence and make a conclusion). Calling yourself just an Agnostic is completely uninformative, and does not make you "not an atheist".
Anyone who does not hold a belief in one or more gods is an atheist. Someone who hold an active belief in the nonexistence of any gods is specifically known as a "strong" atheist (as opposed to "weak" or "implicit" atheists who make no claims either way).

Most' atheists are agnostic atheists, not gnostic atheists. Agnostic atheists lack belief in gods, rather than claim definitively that none exist."


On a personal level, I so no reason for a god to exist. I have sufficient understanding of science to know that there isn't a god shaped hole in our understanding of the Universe. If there is a god, I see none of his handiwork anywhere. The Universe functions fine without him.

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