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      /  Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
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Nimrod 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 5-Feb-2013 8:33:05
#2021 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD

Quote:
An absolute lie. There is no 'gay' gene and no scientific consensus that people are born gay.
Absolutely amazing! The geology degree that you bought at an online diploma mill, also made you a qualified geneticist. Your lie directly contradicts the findings of competent and qualified psychologists (Not Regnerus and his biased flawed 'study').

Quote:
The actions you call for will reduce the take up in marriage just as happened in the Netherlands and Spain
T-J has already exposed this as the lie that it is. I admit that there was a fall in marriage in these locations but it was as a result of other influences and the acceptance of equal rights for all was a coincidence.

Quote:
The emotional trauma of the children,
now you are gettind silly. How will changing the status of a couple from "cohabiting" to "married" traumatise children , or even frighten the horses. Grow up, you stupid child!

Quote:
And guess what? Maria Miller isn't suggesting opening up Civil Partnerships to heterosexuals
And why would I, or any other hetero choose to enter into a second class status to the marriage that I already have?

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CritAnime 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 5-Feb-2013 9:07:01
#2022 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2011
Posts: 735
From: UK

BigD once again skirts around the issues and brings attempted deceit to the table. It's sad that he just won't admit that he has these prejudices and just get it over and done with

Again I submit to him why he feels there should be a two tier, us and them, society. However I feel we would be given a quote from the c4m hate.... I mean "informational" website.

Last edited by CritAnime on 05-Feb-2013 at 09:14 AM.

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BrianK 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 5-Feb-2013 12:31:33
#2023 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@BrianK

Quote:
You are entitled to your opinion and are clearly wrong. If you feel they are grounded in reality then quote us the bill.


Do you even attempt to understand UK case law? Legal opinion suggests that the bill if brought into law would cause a wide range of persecution towards people that hold that marriage is between one man and one woman. People working in the public sector are especially open to litigation creating a society where people are afraid to speak out of face losing their jobs. Foster carers have already fallen foul of trigger happy politically correct local councils who object to them taking children to church. There are also case where councils are openly hostile to people who want to foster who say they will not nurture homosexual practise in children.
'Legal Opinion' is someone's semi-educated guess. Many of things you site simply are not in the law.

If you go back and read you'll see the 1 point I give you for accuracy is that people who work in the public sector can, of course, still be fired for not doing their jobs. When someone works for the government it's their job to carry out the government's laws. When they refuse they promote their ideas above that of the government. I can't imagine a government passes laws only to enable their hirires to ignore those rules. That's not fair to the population of the UK and the person(s) blocking the law should be fired.

There's no need to 'nuture homosexual practise'. The nature of some people is to be attracted to the same sex. It's nothing that needs nuturing. What should be done is respect that person as an individual that's capable of best understanding themselves and their needs. Historically Christians would physically beat and kill people for being gay. Foster parents clearly need to be more accepting than that.

Last edited by BrianK on 05-Feb-2013 at 02:54 PM.

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T-J 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 5-Feb-2013 13:20:08
#2024 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:
An absolute lie. There is no 'gay' gene and no scientific consensus that people are born gay.


Again - medical science is united behind the view that homosexuality is not pathological and causes no harm in and of itself. Therefore, being a non-pathological state, it is not nurturable, does not constitute abuse and causes no emotional trauma to a non-prejudiced third party.

Quote:
Again completely false. Healthy marriages affect the entirety of our culture not just the individuals involved.


Since medical science is united behind the position that homosexuality is non-pathological, same-sex relationships are not 'unhealthy'. Therefore, same-sex marriages will by definition be healthy marriages unless some other psychological issue complicates the example.

Again, in and of themselves same-sex unions are not harmful, pathological or unhealthy and medical science backs this position 100%. The Royal College of Physicians, the Royal College of Psychologists, the American Psychiatric Association, the World Health Organisation and so on and so forth adopt the position that homosexuality is not pathological and that conversion between sexualities is not a medical or psychological possibility.

You want to pretend otherwise? Fine. Go stand over there with the astrologers, the homeopaths, the phrenologists and all the other quacks and snake-oil salesmen.

Quote:
The economic fallout from that will be massive.


There will be no event for there to be economic fallout from. The Spain and Netherlands examples prove my point, not yours. Added to the body of evidence is the case study from the three Scandinavian countries that have equalised access to marriage - rates have increased.

Quote:
The emotional trauma of the children, the fact separated people need twice the number of houses that married people further exasperating the housing shortage and of course the ridiculous waste of money changing the law itself.


There will be no emotional trauma of the children and there will be no increased demand for housing, because same-sex marriages have no effect on the rates of heterosexual divorce.

Because marriage is a commodity that is highly excludable (you do not need to include anyone you don't want to marry in your marriage) and non-rival, (the total uptake of marriage does not affect the supply of new marriages) and because no healthy person considers the state of other peoples' marriages to be of any relevance to the status of his or her own, no effect will be seen whatsoever. You have no economic case. Drop the issue, your ignorance is showing.

Quote:
And guess what? Maria Miller isn't suggesting opening up Civil Partnerships to heterosexuals!


Maria Miller? I thought it was Lynne Featherstone who was the evil force seeking to destroy the world. Ah well.

Anyway, I don't particularly care what Maria Miller says about Civil Partnerships. To be honest, once everybody has access to civil marriage there will be less and less of a case in favour of preserving them.

The solution will be where every consenting adult can have a civil marriage under the auspices of the state, and where any religious body is free to administer a religious marriage to consenting adult adherents as they see fit.

No fair, equitable solution involves giving you any veto power over other peoples' relationships. The sooner you deal with that and move on, the better for you.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 5-Feb-2013 15:12:27
#2025 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@BigD

Quote:
to have homosexual sex is a choice whereas being black or taken into slavery isn't


Why would anyone choose to be gay? You stand a much greater chance to face public ridicule. You stand a much greater chance to be beaten in public. You stand a much greater chance to be murdered for your sexuality. You are less likely to have equal human rights in many jurisdictions. In some places you can be put to death for your sexuality by the state. You also stand a much greater chance to have suicidal thoughts.

Honestly you make such a fool of yourself.

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SpaceDruid 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 5-Feb-2013 15:26:46
#2026 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2007
Posts: 1748
From: Inside the mind of a cow on a planet that's flying through space at 242.334765 miles per second.

@BigD

Quote:

Deny the evidence all you want but teachers know what's coming if the law is changed as do legal minds far superior to yours.

The Sun: Forty thousand teachers fear gay row axe


Lol. I always love how "morally superior" people like yourself like to read a tabloid where they used to show girls as young as 15, topless on page 3 and still continue to show topless teenagers to this day. You know you are getting a reliable news source when you read that rag...

First off where is the source for that figure of "Forty thousand"? "One in ten teachers say they will NOT toe the line by covering the topic in schools" Well actually, the survey doesn't say that but we'll get to it later.

And where are the "legal minds far superior to yours"? In that article (which fails to credit a source, so I have no way of checking on the claim from that article), it mentions a "survey" by ComRes, commissioned by the the Coalition for Marriage.

It wasn't a consultation with legal experts, nor was it an investigation on the legal requirements of teachers to promote equality. It was a survey.

Then you quote John Bowers QC, but then fail to provide a source for those words (They aren't in the Sun article). Perhaps because he gave that interview to "Christian Today" and you didn't want to provide a context? Perhaps also you didn't mention that John Bowers QC is a signatory of the Coalition for Marriage and mentioning this might indicate that man has a personal bias which might have some affect on his position on this?

I've also been finding several debates (All of them very interesting) that he has had with his peers and members of various religious and non religious groups, where it is abundantly clear his religious views are quite strong and his legal arguments are being made from that point of view.

(One I found which talks specificaly about gay marriage and it's affects can be found at http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/07/25/outlawing-god-the-limits-of-religious-freedom/)

Right, next order of business, the survey.

Well here is the actual poll

http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/Teacher_Poll_Results_WEIGHTED_1_Feb_2013.pdf

For those not able to view that, here are the questions.

Quote:

Q1
Should parents have the legal right to have their children excused from lessons which deal with same sex marriage, or not?

Yes, parents should have the right to have their children excused from lessons which deal with same sex marriage
No, parents should not have the right to have their children excused from lessons which deal with same sex marriage
Don't know

Q2.
If you were required to teach children about the importance of same sex marriage, which of the following statements best describes your view?

I would probably refuse to do so
I would probably do so, but would not be happy about it
I would probably be happy to do so
None of these
Don't know

Q3. In your view, should teachers be disciplined if they refuse to teach about same sex marriage, or not?

Yes teachers should be disciplined
No teachers should not be disciplined
Don't know

Q4.
If same sex marriage is legalised, how concerned, or otherwise, would you be that teachers who express support for traditional marriage, even if their views have no effect on their job, could find that their professional career is damaged?

Very concerned
Fairly concerned
Not particularly concerned
Not at all concerned
Don't know
Concerned
Not concerned



And as expected, all the questions are posed in such a way so to get the result the Coalition for Marriage wanted.

Q1
First off, parents ALREADY have the right to have their children excused from any class for any reason. They can withdraw their child from school entirely if they want, as long as they provide an education at home. So the only purpose of this first question is to set the mood of the surveyed person. (The results were about 50 - 50 on the yes no)

Q2
The second question poses a hypothetical situation that doesn't actually exist in order to force the listener into a situation of conflict, they are then given two options that are negative, one very strongly. One positive answer and choice to refuse to answer.

64% chose "I would probably be happy to do so"

Q3
Now this one makes the listener responsible for the actions of the previous question which has made them identify with the "teachers" who the poll has already established are dead set against being forced (even though the person being polled might have been willing).

70 - 95 % of people said the teacher should not be punished

You can see how effective this manipulation is. Comres have provided a human element where the basic act of human kindness guarantees them a strong result. From this point in, the person being surveyed is now protective of this poor imaginary teacher they've now forced into a position of vulnerability. To hammer home the terrible effects of the previous choices we go straight into

Q4
This teacher is now facing ruin for having an opinion different than the person being polled.

This splits the vote 56 - 40 between Concerned/Not concerned

The opinions have now been polarised. No room for doubt. You are either for or against. Black or white. Where before you might have have some concern, now the matter is a yes or no. This removes the middle ground and because people are generally kind, the result is generally in favour of the kindest option.


This manipulation can far better be demonstrated by a clip from the classic BBC "Yes Minister" (Which might have been linked to before?)

Leading Questions

Note what he says about reputable polls and the choice to not include all the questions in this survey when quoted by your tabloids.


Last edited by SpaceDruid on 05-Feb-2013 at 05:17 PM.
Last edited by SpaceDruid on 05-Feb-2013 at 03:35 PM.
Last edited by SpaceDruid on 05-Feb-2013 at 03:32 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 5-Feb-2013 19:00:03
#2027 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@SpaceDruid

Quote:
First off where is the source for that figure of "Forty thousand"?
They have probably got the 40,000 illegally accessed voicemail messages recorded ready to prove the claimed figures.

Quote:
This manipulation can far better be demonstrated by a clip from the classic BBC "Yes Minister" (Which might have been linked to before?)

Leading Questions

Note what he says about reputable polls and the choice to not include all the questions in this survey when quoted by your tabloids.
Absolutely brilliant. Every time BigD cites his newspaper polls it makes me think of this revelation. Especially when BigD cited the "Scum"

Last edited by Nimrod on 05-Feb-2013 at 07:19 PM.

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BrianK 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 5-Feb-2013 19:13:34
#2028 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@SpaceDruid

Quote:
Lol. I always love how "morally superior" people like yourself like to read a tabloid where they used to show girls as young as 15, topless on page 3 and still continue to show topless teenagers to this day.

Christians claim we all should strive to be god-Like. Their god is an absentee Dad that impregnated an unwed young teen ager and left. It appears he seeming let the Step-Dad do the raising of his child here. Returning about 30 years later. Though from what BigD has said about parenting an the ideal family it appears even his god couldn't accomplish that.

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CritAnime 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 5-Feb-2013 19:57:55
#2029 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2011
Posts: 735
From: UK

@all

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21346220

Common sense and decency prevails.

A big day for equality.

Last edited by CritAnime on 05-Feb-2013 at 08:20 PM.

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AndyC 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 5-Feb-2013 20:39:37
#2030 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2002
Posts: 180
From: Edinburgh

@CritAnime

Superb! Just the minor inconvenience of a Lords debate and vote that, at best, will stall its passage into law.

AndyC

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SpaceDruid 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 5-Feb-2013 21:00:54
#2031 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2007
Posts: 1748
From: Inside the mind of a cow on a planet that's flying through space at 242.334765 miles per second.

@CritAnime

"The Commons voted in favour of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, by 400 to 175, a majority of 225, at the end of a full day's debate on the bill."


So quite close then.

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CritAnime 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 5-Feb-2013 21:11:25
#2032 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2011
Posts: 735
From: UK

@all

I would imagine bigd coming on at some point to voice his concerns and distaste.

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BillE 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 5-Feb-2013 21:43:30
#2033 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Nov-2003
Posts: 1195
From: Northern Scotland

@BigD

Quote:
The Sun: Forty thousand teachers fear gay row axe


Scraping the barrel here aren't we. Using the SUN as an example of what is right or wrong is 'virgin' on the ridiculous.

Quote:
The stark position in my view is that a Christian teacher


Teachers should not be pushing their religion onto kids, such teachers deserve to be sacked. Schools should be teaching facts not superstition.

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BigD 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 6-Feb-2013 19:25:53
#2034 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@CritAnime

Quote:
A big day...


Yes, a big day indeed! The day over half of the Conservative Party voted against David Cameron (DC) and the unwarranted redefining marriage legislation that wasn't even in the Conservative Manifesto.

The Daily Mail: Cameron humbled by gay marriage vote rebellion

We learned a lot about DC's delusions such as him thinking an 'Equality' guidance publication released quietly 3 days before the last election constitutes a mandate

So DC has bet the future electability of his entire party an this hatchet job on the institution of marriage and the funny thing is practising homosexuals are still not going to vote for him!

We can earnestly pray that the House of Lords will set matters straight and send this monstrosity back to the dark recessed of DC's Equalities Office 'think tank' where it belongs. That or DC is out of a job come 2015 and marriage is doomed to the same irrelevancy in our culture as per the Netherlands and Spain.

Last edited by BigD on 06-Feb-2013 at 07:27 PM.

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SpaceDruid 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 6-Feb-2013 19:56:46
#2035 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2007
Posts: 1748
From: Inside the mind of a cow on a planet that's flying through space at 242.334765 miles per second.

@BigD

Heh heh heh. So this was a victory for you then was it?

Never let it be said that you lack in the delusion department.

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CritAnime 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 6-Feb-2013 20:34:34
#2036 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2011
Posts: 735
From: UK

@BigD

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't there three parties voting on this. And wasn't there a majority vote in favour of this bill? So is this more to do with your precious conservative party been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st cetury.

Come 2015, regardless of whether the bill passes the Lord's, I am sure people would have moved onto something else to think about. You know such as the economy or emigration. This is just another small growing issue for society. Kind of like when they legalised gay relationships or dropped the age of consent or brought in civil partnerships.

Actually were you this vocal over these things? Further more the previous times marriage was redefined and amended there was stiff opposition. But these have all entered modern society and the majorty don't give a shit about it. Only a few closed minded people

Just the usual bluster.

Last edited by CritAnime on 06-Feb-2013 at 09:09 PM.

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SpaceDruid 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 6-Feb-2013 21:04:47
#2037 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2007
Posts: 1748
From: Inside the mind of a cow on a planet that's flying through space at 242.334765 miles per second.

@CritAnime

Quote:

Actually were you this vocal over these things? Further more the previous times marriage was redefined and amended there was stiff opposition. But these have all entered modern society and the majorty don't give a shit about it. Only a few closed minded people


Actually something I mentioned earlier. During the Olympics in the opening ceremony there was a video montage of UK "firsts" in TV. The first live broadcast, the first satellite broadcast over the Atlantic, you know the kind of stuff. Anyway, there was some concern by those great moralists like D over the inclusion of the first lesbian kiss (Brookside, a soap opera) but not one person made any mention of something that happened just seconds before. The first interracial kiss on TV anywhere in the world, ITV's (A UK network) Emergency Ward 10. The year was 1964. (Kirk & Uhura on Star Trek wouldn't kiss till 1968).

When that happened it it cause shock like you wouldn't believe. Various religious groups camped outside the network, battlelines were drawn up in every county around the UK (Where ITV were split into numerous regional local networks) all trying to stop the show from being broadcast.

It was supposed to be the biggest crisis to hit the world since the dark ages, the end of society was predicted, our loss of moral leadership was cited and just a few short decades later, not one person said a thing. It went by without notice by our moral protectors and only even came to attention if you had the subtitles on the live broadcast where it listed what all the clips were.

And just as that clip passed without notice, so in time will the lesbian kiss and yes, same sex marriage.

D, you are already accepting things as normal and acceptable that these people on these protests would have called you godless for. You already accept women have a role in society, your reluctance to explain why you are willing to overlook Gods law regarding females only shows how little thought you've given the matter.

In a couple of generations time, there will still be bigots like yourself wailing at the world for not accepting their rigid standards of behavior, but I bet you homosexuality won't even be a factor in their though process. Just like interracial kisses, womens right to live as equals and all the other things your bible condemns but you no longer do, gays and lesbians will just be people, like all the rest of us. Not some monster under the bed waiting to steal your soul.

And that is something you are powerless to stop.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 6-Feb-2013 21:39:16
#2038 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@SpaceDruid

Quote:
@BigD

...your reluctance to explain why you are willing to overlook Gods law regarding females only shows how little thought you've given the matter


I have a different impression. I think he has thought about this a lot. I think he just cherry-picks what he wants out of the Bible to be a bigot toward who he hates. I think the bigger question is why does he hate gay people?

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 06-Feb-2013 at 09:39 PM.

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CritAnime 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 6-Feb-2013 22:07:46
#2039 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2011
Posts: 735
From: UK

@fairlanefastback

I have asked a few times but I usually get a quote from some "research" paper or from the c4m website. I doubt he has a unique thought on this other than what's been fed to him.

@spacedruid

I must have missed that post. But you are right. I remember the arguments about the lesbian kiss. And now it's not even thought of any more. Society, thankfully, evolves and moves forwards. Otherwise people will be burned at the stake still and called a witch for having some knowledge. Or medics called heretics for wanting to understand the human body.

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SpaceDruid 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
Posted on 6-Feb-2013 22:26:56
#2040 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2007
Posts: 1748
From: Inside the mind of a cow on a planet that's flying through space at 242.334765 miles per second.

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

I have a different impression. I think he has thought about this a lot. I think he just cherry-picks what he wants out of the Bible to be a bigot toward who he hates. I think the bigger question is why does he hate gay people?


I've met many Christians over the years that had no idea women were supposed to cover up in the Christian religion. Usually this came to my attention when they were saying how bad Islam was for making women do it without realising that's the reason nuns are dressed the way they are.

It's generally not taught from the pulpit. Pretty much the only way to find out about the lowly status of women is to actually read the Bible. Amazingly given it's importance to the religion, lots of people who claim that religion as their own and who even go to church regularly have never actually read the books.

In fact the reason I first read the Bible all the way through was because there was an urban legend that said no single person could read all the Bible in their lifetime (or they could only do it once). And while it's certainly a difficult book to read (given the rough edits done to it and the ridiculous amount of contradictions, even within the same passages), I've managed to read it 3 times so far.

How did such a legend come about? Because so few have read the whole damn book, that's why.

I suspect D is one such person. I think he's only really aware of what is preached in the pulpit and what parts have been pointed out to him from others that share his views. His utter lack of ability to debate about quotations from the same books he quotes from either means he wasn't previously aware of them or skimmed over them without taking them in. He's only remembering the bits that support his views and ignoring/burying the rest.

Of course he'll deny this since how dare an atheist know more about his religion than him, but until such time as he's able to demonstrate he is actually aware of the book in it's entirety (for instance, explaining why he isn't following the teachings about Sundays being sacred while he's posting here on Sundays or allowing his wife out of the house without a chaperon for her job which God forbids her to have), what else am I expected to believe.

As for why does he hate gay people? He seems utterly fixated on the sexual act rather than any emotional connotations. It's like he's obsessed with gay sex. If you go back through this thread, it's all he talks about. One could be forgiven for thinking he is repressing (or at least trying) his own sexual feelings on the subject. For one to be so fixated just seems strange. There was a recent example of this with the school books where sex wasn't mentioned anywhere, but the first thing he claimed was children were being taught gay sex. This is a recurring theme.

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