@BigD

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An yet if you sign up to marriage you are making certain universally vows to one another in addition to whatever individual 'personal vows' you choose to add. In UK law the definition is, "the voluntary union for life of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others."

Interesting. Here in Minnesota we have no such inclusion 'to the exclusion of others'. https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=517.01

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You will have a jealous love for her and not allow lusts

I'd hope not as jealousy is an immature, at best, form of love.

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Redefining marriage will obscure the true meaning of marriage in the minds of individuals.

Some but not all. For example - not for me. Drink whatever you want and call it tea, mine's Earl Grey, unchanged.

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It will blur the distinction between legal marriage and friendship

No it won't. Marriage has legal rights and privledges that friendship does not. For example, hospitals can kick friends out. This includes unmarried life-long same sex partners. They don't have a legal right of privledge that married spouses have. The spouses cannot be kicked out. (Well, save something radical or violent against hospital staff, of course.)

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DO YOU REALLY WANT TO LIVE IN THE WORLD OF 1984 or BIOSHOCK?

This assumes one agrees your contention is right. I do not. In the USA the States that allow gay marriage are in the top half and most at the top of least amount of divorces. Statistically the overall divorce rate is unchanged, it actually might be improved. As for kids I'd argue 2 parents of opposing or 2 parents of same-sex are superior to the 1 parent experence that divorce leaves behind.

@BrianK

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As for kids I'd argue 2 parents of opposing or 2 parents of same-sex are superior to the 1 parent experence that divorce leaves behind.

Except that the two 'parents' of same-sex would most likely have an open relationship and only pay lip service to their vows and if anything would be more likely to get 'divorced'. And all the while they did manage to keep the same-sex 'marriage' afloat they'd be depriving any children of a mother or father role model! it doesn't really sound like the risk of heterosexual divorce trumps these arguments. Same-sex marriage would be a flawed and unhelpful relationship in which to bring up children right from the get-go, whereas marriage as we know it is ideal unless it goes wrong and the parents decide to divorce instead of working through their problems.

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For example, hospitals can kick friends out. This includes unmarried life-long same sex partners. They don't have a legal right of privledge that married spouses have.

Well in UK law they do have the rights when they enter into what's known as a Civil Partnership. The redefinition of marriage to remove the concept of consummating your marriage will inevitably make it more like friendship, less unique and special and hence less people will see any reason to get married. Any short time spike of homosexual 'weddings' will soon make way for a long term malaise of marriages in general. Is this what you want?

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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Except that the two 'parents' of same-sex would most likely have

Lots of emotional conclusions from you but no real world data. What we know from data in States with same-sex marriage is a lower divorce rate overall. This also includes gays with a near similar divorce rate. It would appear some aspects of allowing the respect of two adults determine their own faits improves the numbers. ... Though to be fair the changes are within the statistical deviation so what we need to conclude is there is no significant change when gays are allowed to marry.

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any children of a mother or father role model

I'd argue the roles are the same. Each should be loving, teaching love, and raising their child the best way possible. It's fairly sexist to think there are things only women can do. (Well besides birthing.)

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Same-sex marriage would be a flawed and unhelpful relationship in which to bring up children

You'd think so. Though it appears on some of the studies in the USA that same-sex parents do make a difference. Their kids tend to have a higher college graduation rate and lower arrest and lower prision rates, than. Single parents. Also the kids tend to have higher empathy and tolerance.

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Any short time spike of homosexual 'weddings' will soon make way for a long term malaise of marriages in general. Is this what you want?

The data in the USA says the opposite.

Last edited by BrianK on 01-May-2012 at 01:08 PM.

@BrianK

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'd argue the roles are the same. Each should be loving, teaching love, and raising their child the best way possible. It's fairly sexist to think there are things only women can do. (Well besides birthing.)

What are you saying? That there is no fundamental difference between the two sexes other than women can give birth?!!! Have you ever met a women? They are far more empathising, nurturing and compassionate but can be smothering especially to a teenage boy. A mother although key to the development of a daughter with better communication skills and advice, will not be best place to give a teenage girl the self affirming confidence to wait for a boy who is suitable marriage material. She may well try to get her self affirmation through strings of hurtful and ultimately unfulfilling casual sex encounters if she hasn't a father to reassure her that she is beautiful and loved. A boy is far more likely to take discipline from his father than he is his mother and a boy will monitor his father's respect for his mother and act towards his mother accordingly. Kids that have no discipline in an overly feminised home can react in two ways; either over compensate and become overly boisterous lack focus or concentration or become overly docile, feminine and question their own masculinity. And you casually say there's no difference and as long as they get food on their plate and a cuddle everything will be okay?!!!

There are some things a father is better placed to do and some a mother is best placed to do, that's why it's a special and complimentary relationship best placed to bring up children. A same sex relationship can never hope to match a good marriage.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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What are you saying? That there is no fundamental difference between the two sexes other than women can give birth?!!! Have you ever met a women?

You seem to have a fairly black and white world view. You seem to have nostelgia for a 1950s atomic family which never really existed. Have I ever met women? Have you ever met people? People are greatly varied. Some males are far more empathising, nuturing, and compassionate sides than some women. There's no guarantee that in a room only the women are going to be compassionate or that no men will. For example, while I do have what you would consider the male role, being the bread winner, I'm the one that stays home and cares for sick children, what you'd consider a female role. I'm far more nuturing and compassionate. My wife would be the first to agree.

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And you casually say there's no difference and as long as they get food on their plate and a cuddle everything will be okay?!!!

Your view is one of stereotypes and fails to recognize humans come with their own set of individual strengths and weaknesses. I know a woman who is a welder and a male with no mechanical skill whatsoever. They are not sex based roles they are individuals.

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A same sex relationship can never hope to match a good marriage.

Perhaps it can never match. Though it often does exceed a single parent which is about what 1/2 the kids are being raised in.

Last edited by BrianK on 02-May-2012 at 02:18 AM.

@BrianK

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You seem to have a fairly black and white world view. You seem to have nostelgia for a 1950s atomic family which never really existed.

The two sexes have always loosely followed certain stereotypes from the year dot. Yes, you'll get women who are tom-boys and men who are quieter and more thoughtful but the husband and wife and father and mother roles are fixed. The husband IS the head of the household however headstrong and opinionated the wife for instance.

When marriages fail or couples never make a marriage commitment in the first place and split a single parent family is created. Political correctness expects us to say this doesn't effect the child when it's obvious the child will be slightly disadvantaged. Allowing a child to be robbed of a male and female role model from the very first instance such is the case with same-sex marriage is inhuman and removes rights of the child that they are entitled to. With many heterosexual married couples lining up to adopt there is simply no need to rely on same-sex partnerships to fulfill the parenting role. Divorced parents still get to see their children so although deeply distressing and far from ideal children of divorced parents on the whole still have mother and father role models.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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The husband IS the head of the household however headstrong and opinionated the wife for instance

This is a stereotype. It's not mandated nor is it realistic to expect every family to function in this way. If you want to focus in on stereotypes do note that Italian and Jewish households are run by the mother.

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With many heterosexual married couples lining up to adopt there is simply no need to rely on same-sex partnerships to fulfill the parenting role.

First, marriage need not, nor is mandated to, have offspring. We know people have kids out of marriage and we know marriages exist without kids. As such discriminating against gays for this reason is not fair or reasonable.

Second, I don't know the status in the UK but in the USA we have a surplus of kids waiting for adoption not a surplus of families waiting to adopt. It'd be pretty awesome that if a kid was put up for adoption there were dozens of families scrambling over adopting. Unfortunately, this isn't the case.

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Divorced parents still get to see their children so although deeply distressing and far from ideal children of divorced parents on the whole still have mother and father role models.

You're putting far too much weight on stereotypes and averages. In reality people are more complex. I know children that have grown up to be captains of industry that came from same-sex non-married but 2 committed parent households. I know children that have grown up and are spending the rest of their life in prision that came from married opposite sex 2 parent households. I know children of single mothers that have degrees and another that has a serious alcohol problem.

I hope you are realizing your views are stereotypes and statistical averages. Using these to filter your world view results in bigotry and discrimination against minorities. Instead I'd recommend that you enable people the power in their own lives to decide and live the best way they decide to do so. And if society redefines marriage, as it has since the year dot, then so be it. Allowing gays to marry in no way impacts your marriage. If your marriage is weakened you need to take responsibility for your own relationship and look to each other to communicate and fix whatever is wrong.

Ms. Brunstetter said her husband was the architect of Amendment 1, and one of the reasons he wrote it was to protect the Caucasian race.

DERP

Last edited by BrianK on 02-May-2012 at 07:06 PM.

@BrianK

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You're putting far too much weight on stereotypes and averages. In reality people are more complex. I know children that have grown up to be captains of industry that came from same-sex non-married but 2 committed parent households. I know children that have grown up and are spending the rest of their life in prision that came from married opposite sex 2 parent households. I know children of single mothers that have degrees and another that has a serious alcohol problem.

There are always exceptions but on the whole your self centred altruistic world view will hurt far more people than it helps. High flying children of single mothers succeed in spite of their family situation not because of it!! Why you would want to decrease more childrens' opportunities and give them a worse start in life just to forward you liberal agenda is beyond me!

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Allowing gays to marry in no way impacts your marriage.

How do you figure that? Redefining marriage for them also redefines the definition of my own marriage to put it into the same bracket as same sex relationships and hence devalues my own marriage certificate. It'll mean massive alterations to school curriculum confusing children as to the true meaning of marriage, it'll change the way local services are provided and budgeted for and seriously weaken marriage culture in the UK. It opens the possibility of polygamous marriages, short term marriages and maybe the dissolution of monogamous marriage as a concept altogether seeing as homosexuals hold it in such low regard.

Society should promote relationships that benefit society; same sex couples bringing up children and single mother situations should not be promoted because they are not best for the children. Yes, they happen but they are not ideal. Homosexual marriage is not a mirror of marriage it is a complete destruction of it. And for the few thousand people that would be able to take advantage of the change will be many more people who hold up their hands and say, "what's so special about marriage?"

Homosexuality is not fixed like race is. In 2003 Professor Robert Spitzer, a long-standing supporter of gay rights, published a study in which many of the participants had changed their sexual orientation. Some ended up getting married. Peter Tatchell has said, "it is a choice, and we should be glad it's that way and we celebrate it for ourselves". So if people really want to get married they can! They can go to counselling, spill their guts about how their dad never showed them any love and then find someone of the opposite sex! They are free to do this and if they don't want to then they can stick to a Civil Partnership. The choice is theirs!

The Coalition4Marriage petition is now over 490,000. That's more people than there are homosexuals in the UK (ONS Integrated Household Survey statistics published in 2011). Why don't the politicians sit up and think about what is for the good of the nation rather than the selfish and vociferous few?

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BrianK

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Second, I don't know the status in the UK but in the USA we have a surplus of kids waiting for adoption not a surplus of families waiting to adopt. It'd be pretty awesome that if a kid was put up for adoption there were dozens of families scrambling over adopting. Unfortunately, this isn't the case.

Strangely enough, we have children wanting adoptive parents, and adoptive parents waiting to be approved. The problem is entirely people like BigD getting themselves into positions of authority and deciding that potential adoptive parents are too old, too young, mixed race, not mixed race, too well educated, not clever enough, or any number of other excuses to create a logjam in the childcare system that results in children being kept "in the system" and away from a family environment.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

@BigD

You don't half gibber some utter gobshite at times...

Of course it doesn't "devalue" your marriage certificate... does that mean anyone who was married and committed a crime while married like, murder, child molestation, rape etc... etc... mean that because of what those people did and happened to be married that somehow devalues everyone else's marriage... you're freekin nuts I tell you...

You say "Homosexuality is not fixed like race"... what a dumb claim and where is your evidence that proves this conclusively...

If that's the case then being "Heterosexual" is not fixed like race either, after all just like being heterosexual I reckon being homosexual is not a "choice" for some folk, it's in their genes and for some it's obviously perfectly natural to them...

You carry on believing in mythical beings/ entities called God and coming up with crackpot theories all you want but I suggest you take a good long read at all the tripe you've posted in this thread then take some time to realise that you are in fact a total and utter nutcase...

It's nothing personal as I don't even know you but you come across here as a total loony tune who knows nothing about anything except your crazy religious stuff which was made up by the biggest loonies ever to have walked this planet...

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@BigD

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Why you would want to decrease more childrens' opportunities and give them a worse start in life just to forward you liberal agenda is beyond me!

Because rights of the individual should triumph over the rights of the many. It's not society's job to tell people their love is inadquate for equal and fair treatment.

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Redefining marriage for them also redefines the definition of my own marriage

No it doesn't. Your marrige is the two of you. Your wife is still your wife. Whatever the two of you agreed upon rules, obligations, and structures for your marriage are in no way eliminated or displaced.

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Why don't the politicians sit up and think about what is for the good of the nation rather than the selfish and vociferous few?

I argue that Tyranny of the Majority is what is not good for society. Minority rights are what is good for society. When minority rights are trampled it brings down all of us. Just like we were less equal and less free when women couldn't work or vote. Or we were less equal and less free when man could own man. Or we were less equal and less free when blacks were 2/3rds a vote. Or when we were less equal and less free when races were seperated in a such a way that marriages and love were forbidden and banned.

A Democracy is not a mobacracy where the majority rules and if you're not in the majority too damn bad accept what your given.

@BigD

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The Coalition4Marriage petition is now over 490,000. That's more people than there are homosexuals in the UK (ONS Integrated Household Survey statistics published in 2011). Why don't the politicians sit up and think about what is for the good of the nation rather than the selfish and vociferous few?

Are you aware that this number is still less than 1% of the population of the UK. Despite all your hate campaigning and pressure from your biased and dishonest reporting, you do not have the support of the majority of the population of this country. You state that there are more signatures on this petition than there are homosexuals in the UK. It doesn't matter. There are fewer than 490,000 Amigans in the UK, does that mean that we should be denied the right to marry? or should our particular minority be offered counselling, or simply be herded into the "showers". The only selfish and vociferous few that I can find evidence of is the noisy bigots who persist in trying to deprive a minority group of equality in the law.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

@BrianK

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I argue that Tyranny of the Majority is what is not good for society. Minority rights are what is good for society. When minority rights are trampled it brings down all of us. Just like we were less equal and less free when women couldn't work or vote. Or we were less equal and less free when man could own man. Or we were less equal and less free when blacks were 2/3rds a vote. Or when we were less equal and less free when races were seperated in a such a way that marriages and love were forbidden and banned.

A group of people who hold a sexual preference does not make a gender/racial group! You mention suffragette movement, the Afro-American Civil Rights movement and the fight against the slave trade; all worthy causes. The gay rights agenda in no way is comparable to any of these other causes because they are not born homosexual! If they think they would prefer to get married rather than have a Civil Partnership guess what they can change sexual orientation!!! You can't turn a black person white (other than MJ ), you can't turn a man into a women (unless you think a surgically enhanced tranny with hormone treatment constitutes a women ) as they'd still have XY chromosomes, and you can't turn a man into a robot they are born human have inherent value and don't deserve to be slaves. By contrast, Men and women can change sexual orientation.

Both race and sex are determined by genes. Identical twins have identical genes. If one identical twin is black, the other is also black. If one identical twin is female the other also is female. But this is not the case with sexual orientation. If it were, identical twins (monozygotes) would ALWAYS have the same sexual orientation because they have identical genes. A study of 980 monozygotal twins in Australia found that only 20 per cent of males and 24 per cent of females who had a homosexual twin were themselves homosexual. If homosexuality was genetically fixed and determined, the figure should be 100 per cent.

Last edited by BigD on 02-May-2012 at 09:30 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Nimrod

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Are you aware that this number is still less than 1% of the population of the UK.

Do you get the premise of a petition? It's not designed to blanket canvas the entire UK but it's the biggest petition I've ever been and it's growing at a staggering rate! Oh course it matters if more people think marriage is the voluntary union for life of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others rather than any hodgepodge of genders, sexualities or partnerships. It means that the government should protect marriage from the selfish vociferous few who which seek to destroy it and replace it with same-sex triumphalism, multiple partner orgies and polygamous partnerships to the detriment of children everywhere. This is purely selfish gay rights posturing and nothing to do with homosexuals actually wanting to ape heterosexual lifestyles. They are multi-partner casual sex people who don't want settle down and commit to anyone but want all the wedding bells, tax benefits and trophy children that their screaming and angry posturing will buy!!

Last edited by BigD on 03-May-2012 at 12:27 AM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Nimrod

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Strangely enough, we have children wanting adoptive parents, and adoptive parents waiting to be approved.

Yes and the main problem is the adoption services being too picky about placing children with parents of the same race. There are plenty of married couples who want children. The rules need to be relaxed a bit but I fail to see how we require same-sex couples, cohabiting couples and single parents to adopt when we have enough married couples!!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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A group of people who hold a sexual preference does not make a gender/racial group!

I agree. Though that doesn't change the fact, nor is a necessary condition, that homosexuals have been and continue to be discriminated against.

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The gay rights agenda in no way is comparable to any of these other causes because they are not born homosexual!

You are partially correct. Sexual orientation is thought to be a combination of biological, genetic, hormonal, and environmentally influenced. For example, gay men have a brain that more closely resembles a female brain than a male brain. But, there is no one guaranteed event that correlates to homosexuality. You blame the parents quite a bit. One thing you didn't note and should is that almost all those twins you site are exposed to the same parents and same environment. They were brought up together. Similar to how genetics alone doesn't determine sexuality neither do parental relationship nor environmental factors.

And yes the equality of homosexuals is comparable to those other causes. Women weren't hired by the military because they were girls. Not because they can't do the job. Gays aren't hired by the military because they are gay Not because they can't do the job. Blacks were excluded from living in certain areas of town and renting certain apartments. Not because they couldn't pay but because they were black. Gays were, and are, excluded from certain rentals not because they can't pay but because they are gay. In all cases people are judging the minority by a trait that's unimportant with the relationship at hand. They are failing to measure the person by their ability and judging them unworthy due to fear and ignorance. So the casues are certainly comparable.

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they can change sexual orientation

I appreciate sexuality is a spectrum. However, there are people that just aren't going to change from their perferences along that spectrum. Which is easier to do change someone's sexuality or change a bigot? IMO it is easier and more advantageous to society to ignore the bigot.

Oh and since you're all against families that aren't the June and Ward Clever type I thought you might like to know more than 2/3rds of black kids in the USA come from a broken home. Again you should outlaw divorce first. It causes far more damage than adding 1-2% more marriages will.

Last edited by BrianK on 03-May-2012 at 12:34 AM.

@BrianK

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Oh and since you're all against families that aren't the June and Ward Clever type I thought you might like to know more than 2/3rds of black kids in the USA come from a broken home. Again you should outlaw divorce first. It causes far more damage than adding 1-2% more marriages will.

Try turning that 2/3rds stat into 4/5ths living in cohabiting or broken homes after the redefinition because that is what meddling and undermining marriage is going to do to marriage rates and broken home stats. Heterosexuals just aren't going to bother if you remove the benefits and special status of marriage. This is a very foolish social engineering experiment and nothing to do with equality. Equality exists due to the existence of Civil Partnerships in the UK which offer homosexuals the legal protections and benefits offered to married couples.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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BigD wrote: Do you get the premise of a petition? It's not designed to blanket canvas the entire UK but it's the biggest petition I've ever been and it's growing at a staggering rate!

It's well seeing you didn't look very far...

http://www.fionamactaggart.org.uk/fiona-hands-in-petition-at-10-downing-street

But then that particular petition wasn't about "gays" so I guess it wouldn't bother you...

You sir a long winded, bigoted fart who like nothing more than to spend pages and pages of a computer forum with your religious ramblings & hate campaign...

Get a life and stop rattling yer freakin wallies about something that is non of your concern... you make me wanna

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@Franko

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Get a life and stop rattling yer freakin wallies about something that is non of your concern... you make me wanna

You sir are the one filled with hate and bigoted opinions about the place of homosexuality in the world. It is not the trump card that blows all other rights out of the water. Children have a right to a mother and a father and homosexuals do not have the right to trump that with their dreams of a fairy tale wedding day!!!

Even the European Court of Human Rights agrees that Gay Marriage isn't a human right so get off your high horse!

And about the other petition you dredged up from a year ago;

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The petition, launched in July 2010 by ECPAT UK and The Body Shop UK as part of their joint campaign to stop the trafficking of children and young people, has been signed by an incredible 735,889 Britons and is the largest petition to be handed to the Coalition Government to date.

Do you notice that the 735,889 amount is described as incredible? 491,310 isn't far off is it? And what adjective are you going to use to describe it quite large, more that the combined population of homosexuals in the UK, surprisingly huge? Acknowledge it's big and stop talking as if pro-marriage people are a crazy loon fringe. We are from all walks of life, faiths and backgrounds we can just see the obvious that the UK is a better place with marriage intact with the following definition;

The voluntary union for life of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.

Last edited by BigD on 03-May-2012 at 12:50 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 03-May-2012 at 12:43 AM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios