Good video on the Chick-Fil-A Christians

@T-J

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As I understand it, the main reason why Scotland has gone with a separate legalisation, apart from the usual politicking, is because your consultation decided to extend religious marriage too, with the Equalities Act provisio for faiths to opt-out.

That, and the fact that the power is devolved, and the UK government has no say in the matter.

I'm relatively confident that the UK government will be similarly dismissive of the religious right when they come to their conclusion.

Looking forward to the day!

AndyC

@AndyC

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I'm relatively confident that the UK government will be similarly dismissive of the religious right when they come to their conclusion.

Other than the fact that the majority of MP's constituents are up in arms about the pomposity of the Government in its blatant disregard of the will of the voters. The Government are so out of touch David Cameron has signed his own death warrant and most probably his party's too. Membership of the Conservative Party is dropping like a stone as long standing supporters desert the party. David Cameron can hide behind the Olympics for the next couple of weeks but the Coalitions days are numbered following his attack on the nuclear family.

Daily Mail: Cameron's obsession with Gay Marriage is killing the Tory Party

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A national poll by ComRes on the likely effects of allowing gay marriage — which, incidentally, was not in any of the parties’ manifestos — revealed the Conservatives could lose 1.1 million votes and 30 parliamentary seats in an election because so many supporters would stay at home or switch to UKIP.

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One source revealed: ‘The Prime Minister was told bluntly that gay marriage was causing membership to haemorrhage. Cameron was unmoved and said the members were out of step with the country. ‘He doesn’t seem to care that it’s the party members who canvass on doorsteps across the country in all weathers. They lick envelopes, hold fundraisers and at elections drive our older supporters to polling stations. ‘These people are our mainstay and they are abandoning us. Our party is dying on its feet.’

By the same logic Alex Salmond has scuppered any chance he had of getting a 'Yes' vote for independence! What downright fools our politicians are!

Last edited by BigD on 26-Jul-2012 at 11:34 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 26-Jul-2012 at 10:59 PM.

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BrianK

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Good video...

What an angry young women!!! She is entitled to her opinion but she has no clue as to the damage the destruction of marriage will do to children in America! Her half researched mess of Bible quotes is insulting and anyway the range of different people of all faith views who support 'marriage' is massive! This isn't religion versus trendy liberal America, this is sensible family loving responsible people versus angry self-centred people who think Gay Rights should stomp all over the society we hold dear!

For the last time this is not comparable to the African-American Civil Rights Movement! Homosexual activity is a conscious decision albeit motivated/set in motion by all manner of negative past experiences including in some cases (the elephant in the room) CHILD ABUSE!

Why you would want to risk more children suffering child abuse from uninvestigated/unrestrained people due to teachers focusing on protecting the child's right to be a homosexual rather than the reason a 7 year old keeps saying he is 'gay' in the classroom? We should protect these vulnerable children not allow cases of child abuse to continue under this cloud of 'Equality/Gay Rights Agenda! What would Jim Henson say about that? There will come a day when grown up children will sue social services for placing them with same-sex couples and depriving them of a mum or dad, just as they'll sue the education authorities for turning a blind eye to their pleas for help and attention when all teachers could do was foster their 'pride' of being part of the gay community!!

This all makes me sick and if it wasn't such a cliche I'd be shouting "think of the children."

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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This is an incredulous statement and the implications for the institution of marriage and society as a whole have been explained to you ad nauseam!

Let me correct you on this, you have kept repeating the same tired out old lies ad nauseam, but as yet you have produced not one iota of evidence that will support those lies. You keep making these claims, but the evidence is against you. Let me make it clear in simple terms.

1) As long as marriage is regarded as "special" and too good for homosexuals, then homosexuals are not recieving equal treatment in law to the rest of us. As BrianK has pointed out, marriage has already frequently been redefined to exclude compulsory marriage to in-laws, or by slaves, or rape victims, or female prisoners of war.

2) Is the reason that you anticipate this sort of treatment because that is the sort of treatment that people like you have dished out for the last couple of millenia. Compare the society you describe with earlier theocracies where speaking out against the church led to execution as a heretic. Of course you would prefer to go back to the "good old days" when people like me could be quickly and discreetly disposed of.

3) You claim that "The Equality Act will not easily be amended to allow 'freedom of speech'". Why should it need to be amended? It already gives freedom of speech, and protection of religious belief. What it does not do is give an unpleasant and vociferous minority the right to curtail the freedoms of others to hold differing beliefs.

4) When the law abolishing slavery in England was finally entered on the statute books there were already no slaves in England. The main use of this law has been to release slaves imported inoe the country from bondage. This could not have been achieved if the pointless law had not been passed. It really doesn't matter ho small the numbers are; if one person is a victim, that is one too many.

5) You claim that homosexuals ability to form emotional bonds is somehow not the equivalent to that of humans, in much the same way that people once claimed about black people, or women, or poor people. When you dehumanise a section of the populace it makes it easier to discriminate against them, and after a while, exterminate them.

6) Unlike you, I do not know enough about homosexuality to be in a position to know if it occurs as a result of nature or nurture. Nor do I care, but I do know that creed is not a fixed and unchanging thing. If it were the Jehovahs witnesses would not be increasing their membership in the way that they currently are, nor would the attendances at CofE be in rapid decline. Of course I am fully aware that you would like to re-institute the old penalties for apostacy for all those of us who have walked away from being good little slaves of the church.

7) The fact that homosexuals are a minority group does not mean that they have no right to exist. minorities are not fair game to be bullied and persecuted. You keep making accusations of sexual abuse toward the homosexual community, but there is more hard evidence of the source of that abuse being from among the clergy, and the church did itself no favours when it seemed to condone this behaviour by helping to cover it up and protecting the perpetrators. If (and I do not accept that there is any truth in your assertion) homosexuality is a consequence of abuse, then religion is the prime source of homosexuality, and should be a little mor accepting of its responsibilities toward these people.

You are very good at spreading petty and malicious unfounded accusations, but your entire argument is based on a raft of lies and innuendo. You are not going to be forced into a homosexual relationship, but you are no longer going to be able to prevent somebody who wants such a relationship from committing to it.

And from your answer to BrianKQuote:

For the last time this is not comparable to the African-American Civil Rights Movement! Homosexual activity is a conscious decision albeit motivated/set in motion by all manner of negative past experiences including in some cases (the elephant in the room) CHILD ABUSE!

Shouting a lie doesn't make it true. Also if the child abuser was a catholic priest wouldn't we be justified in rounding up all religious people and sending them to re-education camps of the type that you proposed to "cure" homosexuals. After all we have to think of the children

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When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

@Nimrod

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Shouting a lie doesn't make it true. Also if the child abuser was a catholic priest wouldn't we be justified in rounding up all religious people and sending them to re-education camps of the type that you proposed to "cure" homosexuals. After all we have to think of the children

The difference is that offending Catholic Priests are being removed from office whereas homosexuals; who are more likely to have had a traumatic childhood or suffered abuse themselves, are now allowed to foster and adopt children with seldom any stringent checks as to decipher why they consider themselves 'homosexual' in the first place!

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1) As long as marriage is regarded as "special" and too good for homosexuals, then homosexuals are not recieving equal treatment in law to the rest of us.

Marriage isn't for homosexuals. They receive 'equal' rights not the 'same' rights. Marriage is set apart as special because it obviously is in the sense it benefits society by providing the ideal environment for the bringing up of children and providing a family support network that takes the pressure off our benefits/social services system. Homosexuals simply do not either view their relationships in this way (they have on average 7 sexual partners a year) nor are they able to naturally have children. We actually have to spend more controversial money on them in order to implant eggs via IVF in the case of lesbians and adoption services in the case of gay men!! They offer none of the net gains to society and so although we acknowledge their relationship in the sense of a Civil Partnership it is accepted that it is different to marriage and can never hope to replicate the same importance to society!

Last edited by BigD on 26-Jul-2012 at 11:54 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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By the same logic Alex Salmond has scuppered any chance he had of getting a 'Yes' vote for independence! What downright fools our politicians are!

You're only highlighting your rampant ignorance once again.

All the political parties in Scotland signed a declaration in support of equal marriage. Therefore irrespective of whether or not Scotland becomes independent, it will still deliver equal marriage rights for all.

As it happens, this will have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the outcome of the referendum.

Also, anything that contributes to the demise of the Tory party is absolutely fine by me. Any fragmentation of the right wing vote, resulting in an increased share of votes to UKIP, would simply give Labour the opening they need, so more fool them.

Anyway, I'm counting on the Tories sealing the next general election as it more or less guarantees a yes vote in Scotland in 2014.

The sooner the better.

AndyC

Surprise surprise, everyone. BigD's gone and dodged the issues again. Stop the presses etc etc.

@BigD

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homosexuals; who are more likely to have had a traumatic childhood or suffered abuse themselves

You keep saying this. I do not think you understand the issue, though.

The reason why homosexuals are more likely to have had a traumatic childhood or suffered abuse is because people like you bully them.

End of.

@AndyC

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Anyway, I'm counting on the Tories sealing the next general election as it more or less guarantees a yes vote in Scotland in 2014. The sooner the better.

The next election is scheduled for 2015.

So if you're right about 2014 then I'm not sure why you care about the result, be it Labour, Tory or some coalition therewith. I am assuming you're referring to the Westminster election and not Holyrood, because the days when the Scottish Conservatives could command over 50% of the popular vote are well past now.


Regardless, assuming that the referendum maintains the status-quo-ante as polling currently indicates it will, the Tories won't win the 2015 election. Best case scenario for them right now, what with their angry fringe drifting off to play fantasy politics with UKIP, is to maybe be in a position to negotiate another coalition in 2015, which won't happen - the Liberal Democrats are too sick of dealing with them to do that and will instead do a confidence and supply deal and the other smaller parties will be neither willing nor able. And of course coalition with Labour is out of the question, after what happened with Ramsay Mac.

Much more likely is an outright Labour win or another coalition with Labour as the senior partner.

@BigD

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This isn't religion versus trendy liberal America

In the USA there is clearly a right-wing evengelical Christian front opposed to gay marriage and gay rights.

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this is sensible family loving responsible people versus angry self-centred people who think Gay Rights

OR it's sensible loving equal rights for all people versus angry self-centred people who is afraid of 'the gay'.

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For the last time this is not comparable to the African-American Civil Rights Movement!

For the last time discrimination is discrimination. It's ugly and unfair in all it's colors.

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Homosexual activity is a conscious decision

The science we have available to date disagrees with you. The exact same areas in the straight or gay brain are active when each expresses love. The MRI evidence is indistinguishable.

Though if I may ask. What makes you choose your wife over a bloke? Why aren't you choosing the bloke?

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We should protect these vulnerable children not allow cases of child abuse to continue under this cloud of 'Equality/Gay Rights Agenda

There is NOTHING here that gives gays, or straights, a license to molest children. This is worthless FUD with no application to reality.

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This all makes me sick and if it wasn't such a cliche I'd be shouting "think of the children."

Marriage or not kids are being raised in a diverse parent structure. Gay parents exist, single parents exist, grandparents doing the parenting exist, ginger parents exist, and certainly your 1950s Leave it to Beaver parents exist too.

Unfortunately two straight Christian parents is no guarnatee either. Jeffrey Dahlmer, David Berkowitz, Ed Gein, -- are examples of people raised in a Christian middle-class households. Certainly not all children of 2 straight Christians parents turn out the same way, most are decent. The same goes for 2 gay parents - the kids for the most part don't turn out to be axe murderers.

@BrianK

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Marriage or not kids are being raised in a diverse parent structure. Gay parents exist, single parents exist, grandparents doing the parenting exist, ginger parents exist, and certainly your 1950s Leave it to Beaver parents exist too.

Yeah, there are a lot of diverse family structures out there but the best situation for the child is the love and stability of a family with a married one mum & one dad so let's promote that ideal above other serviceable but less ideal relationships. This is more like equality for the children and gives most kids the greatest chance of having a mum and a dad.

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For the last time discrimination is discrimination. It's ugly and unfair in all it's colors.

If I hypothetically disagreed with you preference for sleeping with other peoples wives then I don't expect to be told that I'm discriminating against your racial/gender group by telling you as an 'adulterer' that I think for the sake of your marriage that you should stop! In the same way people that partake in homosexual acts are not a 'people group' they are just people that partake in an activity that I disagree with and which indicates past negative experiences that has a bearing on their ability to safely raise children without scarring the children with the emotional baggage they're carrying! It is a perfectly valid viewpoint. What defines people as gay? Their decision to partake in homosexual acts, nothing more or nothing less. To think this sexual act defines their entire character is worrying and probably points to self esteem issues.

Polls suggest that the forced push for same-sex marriage will damage the push for Scottish independence. Looks like we'll see both Alex Salmond and David Cameron fall on their face soon enough!

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The survey of 1,004 voters showed 11 per cent are less likely to vote to end the union if same-sex marriage is legalised. Just two per cent were more likely to vote for independence as a result.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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The difference is that offending Catholic Priests are being removed from office whereas homosexuals; who are more likely to have had a traumatic childhood or suffered abuse themselves,

And again you repeat the blatant lie. There is actual evidence of poeple in a position of "divine authority" abusing their position, and children. There have been criminal convictions from trials where it was established that the first response of people like yourself was to protect the offender and stigmatise the victim. Where is the evidence that will support your claim, or are you going to default to the "god told me, so I must be right" position that religious hypocrites always fall back to

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They receive 'equal' rights not the 'same' rights.

Yes and once upon a time Blacks had the right to travel on a bus... just not in the seat that a white man wanted. No doubt you would disagree with Rosa Parks when she refused to stand up saying that she was tired. She later admitted that the only tired she was, was tired of giving in.

If you fear being victimised by this legislation, it is because you fear being treated as you have treated others when the law was heavily biased in your favour.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

@BigD

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Yeah, there are a lot of diverse family structures out there but the best situation for the child is the love and stability of a family with a married one mum & one dad

You are painting with a broad brush. What you are saying here is that all straight marriages are better than any gay marriage. If you want to look at broad brush items there are ways where kids of gays are better. Research shows that kids of gays tend to be more in tune with their own emotions and more empathic of others.

The other thing I'd throw out here is marriage is not only about having kids. While many married, and unmarried, couples have kids it's not a mandate. There's nothing in the law that says married people must have children. People are married and don't have children for various reasons. Your discounting marriage because of an aspect that's not legally required is spurious.


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What defines people as gay? Their decision to partake in homosexual acts, nothing more or nothing less.

I disagree it's a decision.

We can tell from MRI scans is that straight people have certain areas of the brain active when they feel aroused or feel love. They're similar areas but slightly different. For straight people these areas of the brain are a constant. Turns out for gay people their areas aren't stimulated by opposite sex people. Theirs is turned on with same sex people. ... So, if someone isn't getting the brain activity and chemical processes from attraction and affection from the opposite sex is it really a choice? I say no their biology doesn't allow a choice.

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To think this sexual act defines their entire character is worrying and probably points to self esteem issues.

I know this isn't the way you meant it but I think you should consider holding up a mirror. You are the one who is defining the entire character of a person based upon their sexual act. If marriage is to be entered into because two people love each other, then you are categorizing their love and their sexual acts as less worthy than your love and your sexual acts. Are there perhaps some self esteem issues you are facing? I say this because myself and others here in no way feel threatened by a gay couple. It's very clear that you feel threatended and worried.... Heck you're worried to the point I consider as very irrational. Gays will lead to Islamic rule and marrying inanimate objects? This has happened exactly nowhere. Therefore those were some fairly irrational statements.

Amazon pledge of $2.5Million to support same-sex marriage

... I got to meet Jeff Bezos briefly. Not enough time to form a solid opinion of the guy. A friend of mine was working at Blue Origin . If I got the chance again one of the first things I'd do is compliment him on his push towards fairness and equality within our society.

@BigD

@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @BigD [quote]Yeah, there are a lot of diverse family structures out there but the best situation for the child is the love and stability of a family with a married one mum & one dad

I'd go as far by saying that same-sex couples in average are better parents than heterosexuals.
I really think that two people who want to go through the process of adopting a child are far more suited than the two heterosexuals who had casual unprotected sex (the way God wants it to be -- no safe sex, atleast according to the pope and other religious morons) and are forced to marry due to their sinfulness.

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What defines people as gay? Their decision to partake in homosexual acts, nothing more or nothing less.

Its a decision to partake in the activities, yes. But the definition of being gay, or rather homosexual, is to feel sexually attracted to people of the same sex. Nothing more, nothing less.
There are even heterosexuals that take part in homosexual acts, but still define themselves as heterosexual (even if bisexual might be more accurate).
Being gay and not partake in homosexual activities is usually called being in denial.

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To think this sexual act defines their entire character is worrying and probably points to self esteem issues.

Its not those who define themselves as homosexual that let it define their entire personality, its people like you who don't tolerate them that do. This have been shown a number of times with gay people constantly being beaten to death, fired from work, and forced to "counselling".

And there's a thing that will put your selfesteem down: being told that your most natural instinct is sinful, wrong, and against God.

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@jaokim

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I'd go as far by saying that same-sex couples in average are better parents than heterosexuals. I really think that two people who want to go through the process of adopting a child are far more suited than the two heterosexuals who had casual unprotected sex (the way God wants it to be -- no safe sex, atleast according to the pope and other religious morons) and are forced to marry due to their sinfulness.

There certainly is something to be said about entering into something in a thoughtful and prepared manner. Afterall we have to get licenses to drive cars. Isn't a kid more precious than your automobile? Those people who get preggers then have that 'shotgun' wedding are less likely to be ready for parenthood.

My problem is all this really does come down to personal choice. We can find bad and good example in any type of parental area. Though I think we do know that raising kids in neglect is the most damaging. There was a study of Eastern European kids that were raised in orphanages where very little love and care were given to them. Their brains have noteably less development and they have significantly more educational and behaviorial problems than the population at large.

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Its not those who define themselves as homosexual that let it define their entire personality, its people like you who don't tolerate them that do

While there are people that feel guilty it certainly does not help that gays have been discriminated against throughout the ages. This discrimination is still going on.

I found it interesting that BigD called out people who define others by their sexual act. It seems he didn't realize that, he himself is defining those groups by their sexual acts. BigD tells us all how horrid gay parents how and how by creating gay parents we're going to convert to Islam and marry our toaster. (I don't know about you I dont' know any Islamic Toasters?) BigD defined the downfall of society based around his defining people by their sexual acts.

Hint: Church bans blacks from getting married

Last edited by BrianK on 27-Jul-2012 at 09:05 PM.

@BrianK

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Hint: Church bans blacks from getting married

Don't use some random USA news article from Mississippi to represent Bible teachings on marriage!! There are no Bible verses that justify the action of the First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs and the article doesn't even say that they attempted to justify their actions by referencing the Bible. Israel is in the Middle East and most people in the Bible would have tanned/dark skin.

Again though colour of skin and race of people has nothing in common with people's decisions on what they do with their genitalia! What are you on about! To demonstrate how far left-field your example is I mention James Holmes; an atheist who killed 12 people at a Batman: The Dark Knight Rises screening in Aurora, USA. I don't then make rash statements about all atheists being murderers do I? Get a clue.

Last edited by BigD on 27-Jul-2012 at 10:38 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 27-Jul-2012 at 10:37 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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Don't use some random USA news article from Mississippi to represent Bible teachings on marriage!!

Your beef shouldn't be with me but with your own members of your faith for their misunderstanding....
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5)"

The historical record of Christianity (nearly 1800 years) indeed is ripe with arguements that slavery was a God given good. Wikipedia on Christians and slavery Does a better synopsys than I could in such a short time.
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2)

Again if Christianity is a message of love and peace your issue should be rightly placed on the shoulders of your brethern in which you see their wrong doing.


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Again though colour of skin and race of people has nothing in common with people's decisions on what they do with their genitalia

I fully agree with you that skin color has no relation in that aspect. What does have relationship is the offensive discrimination againt people who have slightly different traits than the majority. As you stated people shouldn't be judging people by their use of their genitalia. The way we get there is by extending the same rights to people independent upon use of the genitalia.


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To demonstrate how far left-field your example is I mention James Holmes; an atheist who killed 12 people at a Batman

I think we're still early in the investigation. At this point emotion is often coloring people's world views. As more facts are uncovered we'll be better able to discern if this is true or not. Though you might be intered that James Holmes appear to have some Christian connections. Holmes was a member of The Elevation Christian Church . And don't overlook the inspiration for other Christians to spread their hate: Protests at the funerals

And you may want to note that John Holmes parents appear to be straight and married to each other. James lives at home with married parents ... Just another example that married straight parents is no guarantee of perfect citzens. You tell us gay parents would produce worse results?

Last edited by BrianK on 27-Jul-2012 at 11:32 PM.

@BrianK

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"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5)"

Yeah, advice given while slavery was enforced by the godless Roman Empire. Obviously slavery is not the ideal but since it existed in Roman times and in modern day Britain TODAY, the apostle Paul gives advice on how to endure slavery while on Earth. He at no point condones the concept or principle. If you have an interest in knowing more about the Bible may I suggest a Christianity Explored course.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios