@BrianK

Indeed. It goes without saying

AndyC

These sum up BigD's position quite well:

The Daily Mash

Again, The Daily Mash...

AndyC

Last edited by AndyC on 04-Aug-2012 at 12:31 AM.
Last edited by AndyC on 04-Aug-2012 at 12:24 AM.

@AndyC

Quote:

AndyC wrote: These sum up BigD's position quite well: The Daily Mash Again, The Daily Mash...

One thing gays did was bring together Christianity, Islam and Judism in Israel. These 3 leaders didn't talk to each other for decades. When there was to be a Gay Pride march they met and announced their hatred.

Nothing better for a loving Religion
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3266361,00.html

@BigD

Another geologist here, also not sure why any trained geologist would pose such a standard form creationist argument when they should be aware of, or able to easily look up every value present in the age equation. The 'mysterious constant' you refer to is most likely the decay constant, which to put it very simply describes how quickly a given isotope will, well, decay.

Also, cases of mental illness are not skyrocketing - diagnosis is improving and its much more readily identified now, but that's not the same thing as there being more of it around.

You must be careful of extrapolating trends that may well not exist. The example illustrated by an early module in natural hazards I took was that of the usual apocalypse-monger extrapolating the rate of natural disaster occurrance up to prove the end of days was near. Of course, if that's valid, its equally valid to extrapolate back to show that prior to about 1950, nothing bad ever happened. Of course living memory and the historical records will show otherwise, revealing both extrapolations to be useless. Likewise with mental illness - your extrapolation suffers the same problem of indicating a mental illness free world prior to whatever date, clearly nonsense, therefore any claims of future increases it indicates must be taken with a pinch of salt, if that.

Last edited by T-J on 04-Aug-2012 at 03:11 AM.

@BigD

Oh Christ, this again. You argued about carbon dating before and I told you to ignore it and just put the individual pieces together yourself about rock formation, environmental erosion and plate tectonics to come up with an age of the Earth.

Your claimed Geology degree should be returned in disgrace, both outing the board that awarded you it, when you so clearly did not understand it, and outing any professor that could not assess your abilities on the subject.

Anyone studying Geology knows about James Hutton. The rock formations that started his whole process are exactly 43 miles from my house. Just one look at them and anyone that has even the most basic of understandings of geology can see the Earth is considerably older than any Bible estimates. The whole science of geology began because the evidence is overwhelming.

But, well that's not important to the way your brain works. You've dismissed this argument years ago because it doesn't fit into your fantasy.

_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

Google Translate

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

The whole science of geology began because the evidence is overwhelming.

The simple fact of the matter is that you and I were not there at the formation of the Earth nor were we there when humans supposedly lost the ability to breed with homo erectus hence we have no observational evidence to back these theories up! The secondary evidence is sketchy at best. We use massive extrapolations and assumptions to justify these random theories such as the Big Bang and Evolution. As to the age of the Earth; who cares, God could have created the Earth pre-aged or we simply don't understand the isotopic decay rates well enough! We are not as all knowing as we give ourselves credit for! Pride in this case came after the fall!

New Scientist: Age of the oldest rocks off by millions of years

Quote:

Two of the solar system's best natural timekeepers have been caught misbehaving, suggesting that the accepted ages for the oldest known rock samples are off by a million years or more. According to two new studies, a radioactive version of the element samarium decays much more quickly than previously thought, and different versions of uranium don't always appear in the same relative quantities in earthly rocks. Both elements are used by geologists to date rocks and chart the history of events on our planet and in the solar system. "If you have a critical event in Earth's history, something like an extinction event or a climate change shift or a meteorite impact, you need to know the absolute age with the most confidence," says Joe Hiess of the British Geological Survey, who led one of the studies. "In Earth sciences there's a need to be able to define what happened first and what happened second."

Last edited by BigD on 04-Aug-2012 at 11:28 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 04-Aug-2012 at 11:25 AM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: What weight of evidence? I have a degree in Geology

I'm not a believer in the big bang theory nor that the universe expanded from singularity but they've gotta be far better ideas than the crackpot theory the Gawd only ever did 6 days work and on the 7th day he rested, well retired actually and has done bugger all since...

I notice that you go on about being a bit of an expert in Geology and yet conveniently ignore the fact that for quite some time now the human race has been able to detect & even watch the formation of planets the natural way in which they are formed which is all down to gravity...

Or does the book of fairy tales you read from need to be rewritten to say something like, "Gawd is still at work each and every day, as he stops by with his big wooden spoon to stir up all the cosmic dust and rocks in a circular motion to bind all the materials together and create for us all new stars in the heavens to behold, he also pops a few of the older ones with a giant pin just for amusement on occasion "...

Mental illness is not "sky rocketing", there have always been countless cases of mental illness around ever since mankind created the craziest and most bizarre of all concepts he ever came up... religion...

_________________

@BigD

Quote:

The simple fact of the matter is that you and I were not there at the formation of the Earth

You weren't around at the time of Jesus. Nor were the writers of the Gospels. If you use your own logic you need to reject Christ.

Quote:

We use massive extrapolations and assumptions to justify these random theories such as the Big Bang and Evolution

Big Bang is one of many postulates on the formation of the universe that we're researching. Evolution has been demonstrated in the lab and in environment.

Quote:

God could have created the Earth pre-aged

Dinosaurs perhaps aren't real God just put them there to trick us. Cuz God spends lots of his time trying to make systems to fool us. Not very loving or caring IMO! In fact I'd say it's closer to evil.

@BrianK

Quote:

Evolution has been demonstrated in the lab and in environment.

Scientists perhaps have made a certain Dr Banner into the Hulk or changed mice DNA so that it is genetically superior and can no longer reproduce with normal white mice? In the first instance you've probably been reading too much science fiction and in the second you'd mistaken irradiating mice gonads with creating a new species!!!! Also natural selection as was observed by Darwin in finches is not the same as evolution and new species creation!

Quote:

Dinosaurs perhaps aren't real God just put them there to trick us.

As mass extinction event is described in the Bible i.e. the great flood. A dinosaur is even mentioned in the Bible. The Leviathan is described extensively in Job 41 and mentioned in Isaiah 27:1. also the Behemoth;

From Wikipedia
Quote:

Behemoth is commonly identified as possibly being a sauropod dinosaur[5] which lived in Biblical times. [6][7] ...no other animal but a sauropod dinosaur has a tail that "moves like a cedar" (Job 40:17).

It is not a question of God tricking us but our own deluded pride in our abilities to work out how and why we're here without referring to the Bible.

Next you'll be telling me homosexuality is the next great evolution of humanity because they can't reproduce at all - the ultimate human doomed to extinction!!! What's the new species 'Homo Perversus' perhaps?!

Last edited by BigD on 04-Aug-2012 at 02:21 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Just as I said, you rejected the basic concepts of geology to fit into your fantasy. Just like you did before. You'll note that I said to ignore scientific methods for dating and just focus on the actual evidence presented in front of your eyes.

When you look at granite rock layers at 90 degrees to their original position with a horizontal layer of bed rock, with another several layers of granite - also on their side (at a 45 degree angle) covered finally by sandstone (which was once the bottom of a shallow ocean) and that last layer is 200 feet above the sea on which all of this faces, do you?

a: Conclude that the processes that formed this multi layered formation are of an age longer than human comprehension.

b: Say God did it. Only he didn't like the granite, so he covered it with a shallow ocean, then changed his mind again and covered it with a mountain, then changed his mind again and covered it with a deeper ocean, then changed his mind again and made another mountain, then changed his mind again and eroded the mountain down again to it's current state (that has remained unchanged since Hutton did his drawings in 1764 showing a distinctive peak that has not eroded to any noticable degree since then, showing how slow the process takes).

If b, then that means God is fallible doesn't it?



Quote:

As mass extinction event is described in the Bible i.e. the great flood. A dinosaur is even mentioned in the Bible. The Leviathan is described extensively in Job 41 and mentioned in Isaiah 27:1. also the Behemoth;

A dinosaur.

A dinosaur...

Fossil remains of dinosaurs can be found in every region on Earth, they can be found at hundreds of layers of rock - except above the K-T boundary. If somehow God managed to change his mind again about what he wanted on the surface of the Earth and he did it magically to give us this global boundary layer, if somehow dinosaurs were alive at the time of humans, then

Point 1: There would be millions of giant carnivores roaming the Earth, not "a dinosaur".
Point 2: There would be no humans left alive to build cities and write books.
Point 3: If there was somehow a "God shield" protecting humans then that still doesn't explain why dinosaurs are not the main focus of the Bible. Instead of worrying about the Roman army, surely they would be worrying about having any food left after all the herbivores passed through their region and stripped the land bare.


Edit: Not that you'll pay the blinded bit of notice to this video, I'll include it for anyone reading this thread that wants to learn about what I've been talking about and it's also just a very good documentary in it's own right.

Earth Story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITfVdYXw9jI

Siccar Point is the rock formation I mentioned and it's included in this video including why it was so important to the advancement of knowledge. Why it was so overwhelming in evidence that it changed the mind of the deeply religious scientific community and lead to modern geology as a science.

Rather than present a show that says "this is what we believe", this programs says "this is how we formed our opinion".

Watch it folks, It is really good. It will also show anyone that doesn't really understand geology, why BigD is sooooooooo wrong in his understanding (if you can call it that) of a subject he claims to have a degree in.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 04-Aug-2012 at 04:49 PM.
Last edited by SpaceDruid on 04-Aug-2012 at 04:45 PM.

_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

Google Translate

@BigD

Quote:

Scientists perhaps have made a certain Dr Banner into the Hulk or changed mice DNA so that it is genetically superior and can no longer reproduce with normal white mice?

Seems like you're focusing on a strawman rather than what was said. I had stated evolution has been observed in nature and in the lab. One example is the ~30 year experiment with 10K generations of E. Coli. Genetic divergence and diversity increased over those generations. Some very pivotal mutations occurred. How pivotal? Ones such that they lost the ability to breed with previous generations. This type of mutation is indictiative and definitional of a new type of species. One plus is the experimenters have saved copies of each generation throughout this experiment. We're certain to learn things for years and years and come from this research.

Quote:

Also natural selection as was observed by Darwin in finches is not the same as evolution and new species creation

Scientific observation and understanding of evolution has progressed far beyond Darwin. Heck DNA wasn't even known in Darwin's time. We know where to look for mutuations that Darwin had no idea of the controling molecules.


Quote:

As mass extinction event is described in the Bible i.e. the great flood.

You have some unstated major assumptions going on. First, did a 'great flood' kill the dinosaurs? Unproven. Second, the Bible says the great flood was to wipe the earth clean of all men, except for Noah. Yet we find no human remains along side the dinosaurs. This is because man didn't exist for tens of millions of years after T-Rex. So is this 'flood' the same one the Bible references? No.

Quote:

A dinosaur is even mentioned in the Bible.

Of course the Bible doesn't call them dinoaurs that's an interpretation. It does label bats as birds, Leviticus 11:13-19. Which is wrong they're mammals. It also talks about Satyrs, Isaiah 34:14. which we have no evidence to support. Unicorns, Numbers 23:22, Numbers 24:8, Deuteronomy 33:17, Job 39:9-10, Psalms 22:21, Psalms 29:6, Psalms 92:10, Isaiah 34:7, again no evidence. And Zombies, Matthew 27:52, -- which strangely we do have Roman historian texts around the same time. I'd think a mass exodus from the graves would be something noteable to historians?

Quote:

It is not a question of God tricking us but our own deluded pride in our abilities to work out how and why we're here without referring to the Bible.

Again God is all knowning he'd know about our problems. Yet he chooses to put the deluded evidence we can't suss out instead of being more straight forward? I'd support the story of Job as another example of how much a bastard this 'god' is.

Quote:

Next you'll be telling me homosexuality is the next great evolution

First, we have over 1900 animal documented cases of same-sex relations. It's not only in people. Is it evolutionary? It well may be. Evolution is the changing of animal. Each new birth is an evolution in one way or another. Evolution is blind, it can't prejudge outcomes. It doesn't always pick the best path. For example - I got to take care of a kid born with only a brain stem. There was a mistake that allowed short term survial of 1. It is seen as the first step in evolution (something changed). However, because the change did not produce positive results it died off before it breed. The result was an evolutionary dead end. Evolution DID happen there.

@BrianK

Quote:

It is seen as the first step in evolution (something changed). However, because the change did not produce positive results it died off before it breed. The result was an evolutionary dead end. Evolution DID happen there.

There are plenty of examples of human genetic health degrading over decades and centuries and the shorter term negative mutations or abnormalities but no super-humans are being born we are not getting genetically stronger only weaker. This is because of the fall i.e. what happened in the Garden of Eden. We have begun to live longer due to our pharmaceutical and surgery based medical technology not because of our genetic manipulation or selective breeding.

The acceptance and promotion of homosexuality is not social progress, it is something that has happened before in the past e.g. Sodom & Gomorrah and has led previously to a weaker society NOT a stronger one! This isn't about equality, it is the discussion of the destruction and devolution of our way of life and morals!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

There are plenty of examples of human genetic health degrading over decades and centuries and the shorter term negative mutations or abnormalities but no super-humans are being born

The cerebral cortex is about 100K years old. It's the construct of the brain used for rational processing. 2Million years ago it didn't exist, or at most was pea sized. Another? Turns out no matter how well you live you can't make it above 105 without the right "super" DNA. Supercentenarians . Another? Athletes are still beating world records. Are they not 'super' compared to their counterparts centuries ago? Michael Phelps is not alone. Genetic Advantage to Olympians Is there a reason the fastest world's runners come from 3 tribes in Ethiopia? Turns out their legs are superior levers to that of my Scandivanian descent. And if you want a more direct example of a super-human there's. MuscleTot. ... Turns out 'no-super-humans' is super false. They are all around.

EDIT: Sorry for all the edits I keep thinking of examples. Here's another - tetrachromats can see millions more colors than you can. (Assuming you're a muggle. If you see as they do you may be 'super' human yourself.)

Quote:

it is something that has happened before in the past e.g. Sodom & Gomorrah

Perhaps if we offered our virgin daughter to be raped - like Lot did - it'd all get better! I do not consider offering my daughter to a mob of rapists then later commiting incest with her as 'superior morals'.

Last edited by BrianK on 04-Aug-2012 at 11:26 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 04-Aug-2012 at 10:49 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 04-Aug-2012 at 10:47 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 04-Aug-2012 at 10:30 PM.

@BigD

One thing's for sure - you're clearly one of the least evolved human beings I've ever encountered...

As an aside, I was at the Glasgow Science Centre today with my wife and kids (you wouldn't like it - too much "evidence" on display...)

We visited the planetarium, where we were treated to a tour of the night's sky. I was reminded again just how small and irrelevant we are. A tiny blue dot, in a vast, empty void, circling a completely nondescript star, in a spiral arm of a totally ordinary galaxy, alongside millions of other garden-vaiety galaxies.

It didn't make me feel afraid, or overwhelmed. Rather, it filled me with hope to see how far we had come in our understanding of the universe around us.

The sooner we can put the ravings of cretins like yourself behind us, the better off we'll all be as a species.

AndyC

@BigD

Quote:

This is because of the fall i.e. what happened in the Garden of Eden. We have begun to live longer due to our pharmaceutical and surgery based medical technology not because of our genetic manipulation or selective breeding. The acceptance and promotion of homosexuality is not social progress, it is something that has happened before in the past e.g. Sodom & Gomorrah and has led previously to a weaker society NOT a stronger one! This isn't about equality, it is the discussion of the destruction and devolution of our way of life and morals!

But. Eve and Adam in the Garden of Eden ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By doing so, they gained knowledge of everything, including moraly capacity and sexual knowledge.

You say we're destroying our way of life and morals by "promoting homosexuality". But, this moral you know so much, you know of only thanks to Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit.

What I'm saying is: your use of morality is also a sign of "the fall", i.e. what happened in the Garden of Eden. So the moral you want to uphold is just as bad. What you really should do is to abandon all the knowledge of morality you have.

Or am I using the bible and Gods word in the wrong way?

_________________

@BigD

Quote:

We have begun to live longer due to our pharmaceutical and surgery based medical technology not because of our genetic manipulation or selective breeding.

Correction, We hav extended our life expectancies because when we are ill we consult a doctor, not a priest, and as a result we take medicine, not confession. We also Wash and bathe regularly, and dispose of our sewage well away from our water source. (Or our recreational facilities, but that is another debate altogether) When the plague infested Europe, Divine wisdom dictated getting rid of cats because they did the devils work, and the Churc dominant got rid of the best way of removing rats, and their attending infection from human presence. Wherever the christian church holds power, life expectancy is always shorter, especially for dissenters

Quote:

, it is something that has happened before in the past e.g. Sodom & Gomorrah

Firstly the evidence for the existence of Sodom and Gomorrah is as shaky otside the pages of your book of lies as the existence of Nazareth. I will accept the remote possibility of a small settlement being destroyed in an earthquake, but too much of the story echoes the destruction of cities in older legends for me to consider anything other than theocratic plagiarism as the source of this story.
To further demonstrate how pathetic an example this story is I will "borrow" the real events that happened on August 24th AD79. On the day after the vulcanalia (Feast honouring the Roman deity Vulcan, God of fire) Vesuvius spewed forth a column of smoke and rained fire on the cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum, burying them and removing all traces of their existence.
To the primitive and ignorant, this could be taken as a sign of Vulcans disapproval that the sacrifices and worship of these people had not been sufficiently devout, warranting punisment.
The self-righteous and holier-than-thou brigade would invent a spurious tale of immorality as justification for "divine intervention" and their proof of immorality? If the postulated immorality hadn't happened, there would have been no requirement for "divine intervention"! Circular logic anybody?
Evidence drawn from a variety of sources including records of Pliny, and of course the arcaeology of the sites show that it was simply a volcanic eruption that destroyed several ordinary communities, while not in any way effecting other similar communities elsewhere.

@BrianK
Quote:

DNA. Supercentenarians .

Sounds familiar. So far the fiction written by Heinlein has a better accuracy than the fiction read by BigD, although it still contains incest so no bonus points for morality.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

Relevant....

"superior morals"

@jaokim

Quote:

What I'm saying is: your use of morality is also a sign of "the fall", i.e. what happened in the Garden of Eden. So the moral you want to uphold is just as bad. What you really should do is to abandon all the knowledge of morality you have.

Living by God's moral standard was all Adam & Eve knew before they ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge and learnt what bad morality and evil was. We have been tempted by debauched living ever since and tried to live apart from God's guidance. Our moral compass is the Bible and not ultimately our own consciences which can be corrupted. While homosexual feelings may exist in some individuals it is not Biblicaly sound to act upon them.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

The sooner we can put the ravings of cretins like yourself behind us, the better off we'll all be as a species.

You're not exactly the greatest role model for the benefits of free speech are you!? My viewpoint is just as valid as yours and with a greater upswell of support amongst the British people including Scotland.

Save marriage and let the aggression and intolerance of family value stop at your sad attacks on an internet forum. Let's not let your bile overspill into normal life.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios