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      /  Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million Updated - you can sign petition after reading, if you want!
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BigD 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 30-Mar-2012 23:23:25
#81 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@Nimrod

Quote:
I am going to throw your own question straight back to you. What logical point can you use to prove that your holy book is in any way more holy than the holy book touted by any other followers of a different holy book, bearing in mind that all holy books claim to be the one true holy book. Or is your righteousness simply self-righteousness and are you just "holier than thou"


I am using stats and polls and you are throwing the numbers back at me. I am stating that IRRESPECTIVE OF A POSITION OF FAITH THE MAJORITY OF THE UK IS AGAINST THIS UNDEMOCRATIC CRUSADE TO REDEFINE MARRIAGE! You have failed to argue this point other than to try and discredit the newspapers I supply as evidence. Did you study history? Evidence is still evidence despite inherent bias.What is your evidence? You throw my question back at me but fail to answer the question. As far as the vast majority of Britain is concerned marriage is marriage;

"The voluntary union for life of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others."

Redefine it at society's peril. It is naive to think it has no consequences beyond an equality stance!

On the side topic you seem to have brought up. Jesus claimed; "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

He was also raised from the dead. No other 'prophet' claimed to be God, defeated death on a cross and gave us assurance of heaven by defeating death once and for all.

1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

That's a promise! No other pseudo faith has that sort of assurance or promise of eternal life.

That's enough for me. What about you?

Last edited by BigD on 30-Mar-2012 at 11:27 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 30-Mar-2012 at 11:26 PM.

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Franko 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 30-Mar-2012 23:35:35
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Jun-2010
Posts: 2809
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@Nimrod

That's a promise! No other pseudo faith has that sort of assurance or promise of eternal life.

That's enough for me. What about you?


Wow... promises of eternal life...

If religion is that powerful then get them to resurrect the Amiga and I too will beleive... Franko 00:35 am

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SpaceDruid 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 0:17:18
#83 ]
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Joined: 12-Jan-2007
Posts: 1748
From: Inside the mind of a cow on a planet that's flying through space at 242.334765 miles per second.

@BigD

Quote:

That's a promise! No other pseudo faith has that sort of assurance or promise of eternal life.


Well, except all the other religions that promise the same thing...

Not that eternal life is all that great. If you live long enough, you end up as a cow. Trust me when I tell you to enjoy your mortality.

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BigD 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 0:37:24
#84 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@SpaceDruid

Quote:
Well, except all the other religions that promise the same thing...


Others preach a 'work your way to heaven' message or work your way to a better life when reincarnated or do good and you'll get it back message. Jesus is not emulated in other faiths. He is unique in that he ACTUALLY SOLVED the problem as to how a sinful being; man, could have relationship with a perfect God. He bridged the gap by taking the punishment for our sins. No other person in any text, holy book or history has ever done that. You are mistaken by brazenly putting everything in a big box called religion and discarding it all!

Last edited by BigD on 31-Mar-2012 at 12:39 AM.

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SpaceDruid 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 0:47:54
#85 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2007
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From: Inside the mind of a cow on a planet that's flying through space at 242.334765 miles per second.

@BigD

And you are foolish to wish for eternity....

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BigD 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 1:13:09
#86 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@SpaceDruid

Quote:
And you are foolish to wish for eternity....


Eternity in heaven is assured if you place your trust in Jesus' sacrificial substitutionary atonement for your sins. Eternity in hell is assured if you don't. Either way eternity happens whether you wish for it or not!

This is a bit off topic though don't you think? As I said before plenty of non-religious people see the value in marriage in its current definition too. Almost 350,000 signatures don't lie!

Coalition 4 Marriage Petition

Last edited by BigD on 31-Mar-2012 at 01:17 AM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 8:07:00
#87 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD

Quote:
"The voluntary union for life of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others."
And for those who fail to live up to requirements? Do you propose stoniing adulterers to death, or permitting murder as an alternative to divorce? I have had a long and happy marriage, and hope that it will continue for many more years to come, but others have been less fortunate. Am I supposed to run some sort of hate campaign against those less fortunate than myself? So much for "christian goodwill"

Quote:
Jesus claimed;...
Precisely. Jesus claimed and yet contemporary records kept by two nations of assiduous record keepers (Jewish and Roman bureaucracies, and the historian Josephus) make no reference to the events depicted at the time that they supposedly occurred and the earliest independent recorded mention of the cult was not until a hundred years after the dates used in the stories.

Quote:
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
A very nice claim, now show that it has more truth than the excerpt from the shahada "there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger". Then read the entire Koran and tell us where it acknowledges christianity as the superior religion. Then do the same with the Guru Granth Sahib, then the Torah, or even the Avesta. Then, using all sources demonstrate that all of these other faiths, some older than yours and some newer, are all false, and that you really are better than the rest of us, and not just "holier than thou".

Quote:
He was also raised from the dead.
As was the Persian Mithra, the Syrian Adonis, the Egyptian deity Osiris, and the Greco-Roman cult of Dionysius had their God, born of the virgin, Semele, being torn to pieces by the Titans, and then resurrected by his mother. Does any of this sound vaguely familiar? All of these religious beliefs were widespread in the Roman Empire prior to its christianisation, , and subsequent outburst of religious intolerance.
The historical origin of the central events of Christianity did not begin with the actual resurrection of a Galilean Jew. It began when Jewish religious philosophy was grafted onto Greco-Roman paganism by a bunch of peripatetic proselytising plagiarists.

Quote:
That's enough for me. What about you?
Like I said, empty promises to keep the plebs docile. If the preachers of this faith actually believed the messages that they are spreading, wouldn't they lead better lives than the historical record shows them leading.

Quote:
Almost 350,000 signatures don't lie!
350,000 out of a total population of 62,262,000 (2010 statistic) means 0.56% of the population want to intervene and deny other peoples wish for equality. Hardly a majority is it?

Last edited by Nimrod on 31-Mar-2012 at 08:16 AM.

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Swoop 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 9:49:53
#88 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2003
Posts: 2162
From: Long Riston, East Yorkshire

@Franko

This is obviously difficult for you to understand.

You can live in a Christian Society without being a christian.

The laws of the united kingdom, and I include Scotland in that statement, are based on christian values not neccessarily personal beliefs. If you are a law abiding citizen, from whatever background or faith, you will follow those laws.

Mind you, coming from Scotland, you could be a blue-faced marauding berserker (in a kilt of course).... , then I suppose our laws wouldn't apply to you.

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Swoop 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 10:08:17
#89 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2003
Posts: 2162
From: Long Riston, East Yorkshire

@Nimrod

Quote:
Quote:
@Franko Do you base any of your cherished and highly opinionated views on anything over than the voices in your head? Do you read? Do you discuss these issues with you friends? If so share some facts instead of spouting your own personal agenda!

I am going to throw your own question straight back to you. What logical point can you use to prove that your holy book is in any way more holy than the holy book touted by any other followers of a different holy book, bearing in mind that all holy books claim to be the one true holy book. Or is your righteousness simply self-righteousness and are you just "holier than thou"

Please re-read both my post and Franko's reply.
I said non-christian, and not non-religious.
I also stated that a person's beliefs are totally seperate from the society they live in.

Although though shalt not kill, is one of the ten commandments, in this country it is unlawful to kill somebody. Hence my comment that the UK is a christian society.
Parliment was created in the time of Oliver Cromwell, and the laws/constitution of this country were formed at the same time. I never mentioned any holy book, [by the way if you study them you will find more similarities than differences]. I never mentioned imposing religious ideas on other people.
I simply stated, although not simply enough, that because the basis of our laws are the ten commandments (either CofE, or Catholic) the UK is essentially a Christian society.

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Tpod 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 10:24:14
#90 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Oct-2009
Posts: 122
From: UK

I've interjected as you three have turned this in to some anti religious rant!

@Nimrod

Clearly have issues with organized religion, which is fine we live in a free & democratic society & I think its quite right that you are able to share your thoughts of eternal nothingness when you die. However the topic here is - Gay Civil Marriage In UK! Not, I'm an atheist & anyone who isn't is a pleb!

@Franko & SpaceDruid

You two clearly are just trying to be cleaver but looking just a tiny bit immature whist your at it! The subject hear is Gay Civil Marriage in the UK!

Quite amusing, if sad that I got accused of anti gay bigotry here (for no logical reason); the only Bigotry here is Anti Religious Bigotry.

A new thread entitled - We cant keep on topic, but are glad we have seen the light of atheism! - would be appropriate for you three.

Last edited by Tpod on 31-Mar-2012 at 10:29 AM.

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pavlor 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 11:39:12
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Tpod

Quote:
We cant keep on topic


This is AW.net, on topic discussions are rare there...


Back to your original question:
£3.7 million is huge ammount of money. However, it is only fracture of money spend on sound systems for EU presidency of my country...

As I see, there is some minority that wants to secure its rights through marriage. Does it violate my own rights and freedoms? No. Then let they have what they want.

Last edited by pavlor on 31-Mar-2012 at 11:39 AM.

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Franko 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 12:15:03
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Jun-2010
Posts: 2809
From: Unknown

@Tpod

Quote:

Tpod wrote:
I've interjected as you three have turned this in to some anti religious rant!

@Franko & SpaceDruid

You two clearly are just trying to be cleaver but looking just a tiny bit immature whist your at it! The subject hear is Gay Civil Marriage in the UK!

Quite amusing, if sad that I got accused of anti gay bigotry here (for no logical reason); the only Bigotry here is Anti Religious Bigotry.

A new thread entitled - We cant keep on topic, but are glad we have seen the light of atheism! - would be appropriate for you three.



Hmmm... lets see now...

Looking a bit immature because we are the ones who don't believe in fairy tales and mythical non existent being called gods all of which religion is, yup that sure makes us look like the childish ones...

The subject may well be "Gay Civil Marriage" like you say so why then does Big_D have to back your argument for this petetion by quoting Poll results carried out on behalf of the Catholic church and the entire thread is riddled with post about "Christian" this and "Christian" that, if religion isn't a part of this and you agree with him on using this !!!

Ok... you tell us that you are being accused of "Anti Gay Bigotry" (pretty sure I didn't say that) but you are the one who started this thread asking people to support this petition, so..

A) you are in favour of it...

&

B) you claim it's not only about the money... http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=35434&forum=4&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#659050

So if it's not about the money and you are so keen to see this petition win through , then what is it about to you !!! and don't tell me again it's because you studied Sociology again as your post about that was inaccurate to say the least...

PS: You already tried the "New thread" bail out route and back peddled on that one quicker that a trick cyclist, you see religion is playing a very big part in this entire debate whether you conveniently try to ignore it or not, so there is no "off topic" here as far as religion is concerned, just ask Big_D I'm sure he'll thrown in a couple of polls to prove the point to you...

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Franko 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 12:20:30
#93 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Jun-2010
Posts: 2809
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@Tpod

As I see, there is some minority that wants to secure its rights through marriage. Does it violate my own rights and freedoms? No. Then let they have what they want.


That's quite correct... but the problem with folk like Tpod & Big_D is they firmly believe even though like you say it doesn't violate their own rights & freedoms, that they have to try and impose upon others their own moral & religious doctrine on others even though the entire subject has nothing to with them personally...

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Nimrod 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 12:43:09
#94 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Swoop

Quote:
in this country it is unlawful to kill somebody.
It is also unlawful to kill somebody in India, Pakistan, China, and Japan. None of these countries is a christian country so it is a bit difficult to claim the prohibition of killing as a christian virtue, merely a secular law that had the support of the christian church at a time when being non-christian was unhealthy This country is noy yet a full secular society, and will not be until evidence given in a court of law under affirmation carries equal weight to that given under oath on some book or other, but at least dissenters are not burned for heresy any more, so progress is being made.

@Tpod

Quote:
I've interjected as you three have turned this in to some anti religious rant!
I wasn't the person who introduced religion into a campaign by a political and religious lobby group, to deny equality to a section of society. When anybody tries to use their religion to justify discrimination I feel justified in mounting a strong defence against bigotry.
Having been told that their god is the one true god I simply pointed out that this claim, and many other details were a common feature. Pointing out that Islam, Hinduism or Zoroastrianism are equally valid viewpoints is not atheism.

And since there is still no evidence that gay marriage is about to become compulsory I still see no reason to oppose it being introduced for those that want it.

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Tpod 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 13:04:54
#95 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Oct-2009
Posts: 122
From: UK

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@Tpod

Quote:
We cant keep on topic


This is AW.net, on topic discussions are rare there...


Back to your original question:
£3.7 million is huge amount of money. However, it is only fracture of money spend on sound systems for EU presidency of my country...

As I see, there is some minority that wants to secure its rights through marriage. Does it violate my own rights and freedoms? No. Then let they have what they want.


Well my original point was that this 3.7 million expenditure is completely unnecessary, as the minority in question at considerable expense to the rest of us already have all the same rights.
Take a look at:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/9174173/Landmark-case-enshrines-civil-partnership-as-identical-to-marriage.html

There is no genuine benefit to this, just expense.

@ Franko - I know how much your appreciate the telegraph article . I also know that there is zero point in you & I communicating on this topic

I will leave you all to continue, I have other things that need doing.

Last edited by Tpod on 31-Mar-2012 at 01:06 PM.

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Franko 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 13:19:04
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Jun-2010
Posts: 2809
From: Unknown

@Tpod

Quote:

Tpod wrote:
@pavlor

There is no genuine benefit to this, just expense.

@ Franko - I know how much your appreciate the telegraph article . I also know that there is zero point in you & I communicating on this topic

I will leave you all to continue, I have other things that need doing.


Oh... I see... start a thread then bail out (again) when someone asks you to clarify your stance on this...

Make up your mind (either one of them will do) you claim it's not just about the expense now you claim it is just the expense...

PS:What's the other things you have to do ??? take your meds for schizophrenia...

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BrianK 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 13:29:54
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@BigD

where I find you argument falls short is due to history. The same sorts of arguments were made about women and blacks voting. Also more directly in respect to interracial marriage. The results were that our society is all the better by allowing those things. I see no difference here.

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pavlor 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 17:06:49
#98 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Tpod

Quote:
Well my original point was that this 3.7 million expenditure is completely unnecessary


Many expenses of my (and probably also of your) governament are completely unnecessary. This expense will at least make some people happy.

Quote:
as the minority in question at considerable expense to the rest of us already have all the same rights.


Maybe my English isn“t good enough, but I feel you consider even current expense as burden?

Last edited by pavlor on 31-Mar-2012 at 05:07 PM.

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Tpod 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 17:31:21
#99 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Oct-2009
Posts: 122
From: UK

@pavlor

I fully accepted the need for that expense; it quite rightly provided all the same, rights as heterosexuals have when they get married. Also this change will have other negative effects other than financial expense (if you have a read through my first post it will direct you to them).

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Franko 
Re: Gay Civil Marriage In UK at a cost of 3.7 million - good use of tax payers money!? Please sign Petition if you think not.
Posted on 31-Mar-2012 17:34:37
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Jun-2010
Posts: 2809
From: Unknown

@Tpod

Quote:

Tpod wrote:
@pavlor

I fully accepted the need for that expense; it quite rightly provided all the same, rights as heterosexuals have when they get married. Also this change will have other negative effects other than financial expense (if you have a read through my first post it will direct you to them).


Can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that such a law will have negative effects as you claim, seems more like highly opinionated scare mongering to me...

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