@BigD

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As I remember I said that studies indicate that around 35 percent of pedophiles are homosexual

Exactly which studies were these that you are referring to. Was it by any chance this one that was totally and absolutely discredited as a tissue of lies.
I could more sensibly argue that religion is the biggest danger to kids in this country based on three observations.
1 The number of mass murderers like peter sutcliffe who claimed to be acting on orders from God to eradicate prostitutes.
2 The number of priests who sexually abused children and told them that they would go to hell if they told their parents what had happened.
3 The high proportion of christians who are convicted of major crimes. While only 6% of the population regularly attend church, the vast majority of convicted criminals gave their testimony on oath on a bible
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In regards to the Nazi reference the point was that the rise of the Third Reich started when basic democratic freedoms and processes were taken away or undermined

We had a period like that in this country when parliament had no power and a self appointed dictator ran the country. His name was Oliver Cromwell, and the country was run as a theocracy. They did so well that the people wound up begging the son of the king that they had beheaded to come back and rescue them. I would also poiunt out that your likening Salmond to Hitler was the lowest and most despicable accusation possible, and you are totally hypocritical when you go on to whine about being the victim of derogatory comments. As much as I hate, loathe and detest Salmond I fail to see gangs of stormtroopers marching up the Royal Mile beating up sassenachs, or smashing the windows of english shops. Neither is he rounding up homosexuals and sending them to extermination camps, as much as you would like him to.

The plain fact is that you don't always get your own way. Learn to live with it, the rest of us have.

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@Nimrod

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I could more sensibly argue that religion is the biggest danger to kids in this country based on three observations. 1 The number of mass murderers like peter sutcliffe who claimed to be acting on orders from God to eradicate prostitutes. 2 The number of priests who sexually abused children and told them that they would go to hell if they told their parents what had happened. 3 The high proportion of christians who are convicted of major crimes. While only 6% of the population regularly attend church, the vast majority of convicted criminals gave their testimony on oath on a bible

To site a 4 use the USA. we have the highest % of population claiming to be religious and attending church. We also have the highest rate of imprisonment in the world. Christians make up a larger % of the prison population than they do the public at large. Additionally those states which poll the highest rates of Christianity have the highest rate of divorce and highest rates of unwed mothers.

BigD seems worried about Turning into WWII Germany. How quickly he forgets it was Christians who staffed the army and threw homosexuals into the kilns, along with others.

@BrianK

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BigD seems worried about Turning into WWII Germany. How quickly he forgets it was Christians who staffed the army and threw homosexuals into the kilns, along with others.

Again we go back to the point, what sort of Christians are you talking about? Were these SS officers who said they were 'Christian' on the German census form but quite happily murdered Jews and broke the 'thy shalt not murder' commandment with no regret? Get a clue.

Tony Blair said he was a Christian and yet supported the original wording of the 'Religious Hatred Bill' which would have criminalised street preaching had it not been for the free speech amendment that was passed only because Tony was overly confident, did not attend and failed to cast the decisive ballot that could have tied the vote. Maybe you're talking about the Christians that say their Christians because they've grown up in the Bible belt or say their Catholic because they are culturally Romani Gypsies and yet wear virtually no clothing, and think that their religious ceremonies are a big excuse to wear stupidly big dresses?

Maybe you should use some common sense and define Christians the way the Bible does; followers of Jesus Christ, who live to please him. And although we don't work their way to heaven as that was ONLY made possible by Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross, even so we attempt to follow his teachings and to obey is laws because of what he was done for us! I don't think turning a blind eye to the death of 6 million Jews or killing homosexuals would really qualify someone to be called a follower of Jesus do you?

_________________
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@Nimrod

Quote:

I would also poiunt out that your likening Salmond to Hitler was the lowest and most despicable accusation possible, and you are totally hypocritical when you go on to whine about being the victim of derogatory comments.

Another correction needed ... My comment was that the Third Reich's rise to power started with the removal of standard democratic process and I compared this to the SNP not listening to the majority of the consultation responses on Redefining Marriage and ignoring democratic process. At no point did I compare Salmond to Hitler.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
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@BigD

Quote:

Again we go back to the point, what sort of Christians are you talking about?

German society and German men pre-wwii were primarily composed of Lutherans. These Christians carried bibles in their pockets and did some fairly horrid deeds. Killed their neighbor one day and went to church the next day to ask for forgivess of their sins. I'd suspect some of those Nazi Troops lost their faith and some may have gained even more faith - fairly typical reaction in times of crisis.

You seem to not believe that Christians can do horrid things. History is littered with the bodies of peoples that followers of the Lord decided were unworthy to live. You clearly haven't been reading your history.

@BigD

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Again we go back to the point, what sort of Christians are you talking about?

We are talking about the kind of christians who went on crusades to "liberate" the Holy Land from the peiople who lived there, and massacred the population of Jerusalem in 1099.
We are also talking about the sort of christians who carried out the York pogrom in 1190
We are also talking about the sort of christians who massacred all of the prisoners, including women and children during the siege of Acre in the third crusade, on the orders of Richard Coeur de Leon (Big, brave hero, Richard the lion heart, telling his men to kill children, what a marvellous model of applied christian virtues).
These few examples are followed by the genocide of the "Albigensian crusades"in southern France over a period of 45 years that also led to the establishment of the Inquisition.
I will add the methods used by the church during the conquest of Spain from the Moors, and the treatment of the Islamic population of Granada, despite the christian "promises" of freedom to practice their faith and customs, and then stop. If you wish you can study how christian virtues were spread in South America for yourself, it gets quite bloody, you know.
I can cite over a thousand years of the christian tendency to rape, torture, massacre, and oppress, in direct contravention of the words written in their so called holy book (It can't be that holy to them since they so routinely ignore its teacings) that started about half a second after they gained power in the Roman Empire.
It seems to me that christians spend a lot of their time talking about peace, the equality of all of gods children, "do unto others" etc, but as soon as they get a modicum of power they abuse it in the same way that a catholic priest abuses children, and if they get political power, the blood starts to flow.

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I don't think turning a blind eye to the death of 6 million Jews or killing homosexuals would really qualify someone to be called a follower of Jesus do you?

Feel free to re-read the above potted history of the spread of christian virtues in mediaeval times, and bearing in mind the phrase "Actions speak louder than words" ask yourself why the majority portion of the worlds population who are not christians should see the atrocities committed by the Nazis as anything other than just another day at the office for christians.

I also note that in the middle of your post you wandered off topic to make an attack on another minority group, on the grounds that they don't wear enough clothes (Why not just call them ignorant savages and enslave them "for their own good". It worked on the Africans) and also wear too much clothing. Another example of christian care, and what it reallymeans


EDIT:
Quote:

Another correction needed ..

Quite right, you do need to be corrected again
In 1920's Germany, a minority pressure group held mass rallies and claimed majority support for a campaign of hate, built up and directed against other minority groups, blaming them for everything that was wrong with the world. This is exactly reflected by your own actions on this site, including your meaningless accusation that anybody who does not blindly follow your blinkered distorted view of the world is somehow part of a "Liberal conspiracy". Alex Salmond is standing up for the rights of a minority group against a vociferous campaign to deny them basic human rights. (I now have to go and wash out my mouth with soap and water, having just said something nice about the arch-secessionist demon)

Last edited by Nimrod on 26-Aug-2012 at 09:48 AM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 26-Aug-2012 at 09:22 AM.

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@Nimrod

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Alex Salmond is standing up for the rights of a minority group against a vociferous campaign to deny them basic human rights.

Here we go again;

Telegraph: European Court of Human Rights rules Gay Marriage is not a Human Right

Also, practising homosexuals are no more a persecuted minority group than are train spotters. They both choose that lifestyle and suffer minor stigma due to that choice. You seem fixated on the need for a Martin Luther King type Civil Rights Movement required to overthrow the evil oppressors of homosexuals everywhere when the reality is it's marriage that is under attack and the majority of Britons believe that the appeasment of those who would attempt to subvert cherished institutions such as marriage has gone far enough.

This is not an equality issue however much you shout it. This is abhorrent anti-marriage posturing and liberal bias at work.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@SpaceDruid

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I don't know who you think it is that is supporting you here? Perhaps that "majority" you have in your head (They don't exist), or maybe you are trying to convince your God? Regardless, there is nobody reading your lies or twisted quotes that believe them. Don't you get this yet?

Maybe because?

@BigD

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Here we go again; Telegraph: European Court of Human Rights rules Gay Marriage is not a Human Right

Judges, Even in the EU court, do not make the law The laws are debated in parliaments and if found to be unfair they get changed One hundred years ago women did not have the same rights as men to vote. The majority was quite happy with the status quo, and it can be demonstrated that the majority of women do not use the vote that they were eventually given, so why was the law changed? It was changed because it was discriminatory Incidentally the Daily Telegraph led the campaign against votes for women, referring to Emmeline Pankhurst as a 'sincere, but sadly misguided, believer in herself and the cause of womens suffrage.

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it's marriage that is under attack

Would you care to explain without resorting to lies exactly how my marriage is threatened by the proposed legislation. My marriage has so far remained unaffected by Franko not having the correct permits from either church or state, just as it will remain unaffected if the state gives that piece of paper to two other people who just happen to be the same gender. Once again let me explain

The new legislation will make same gender marriage legal. It will not make it compulsory.

Quote:

the majority of Britons believe that the appeasment of those who would attempt to subvert cherished institutions such as marriage has gone far enough.

Actually the majority of Britons questioned in independent polls carried out by reputable polling organisations, are in favour of the change. The fact that the daily Telegraph cited a poll carried out by, and on behalf of the Catholic Advertiser, does not mean that there are two polls in support of the catholic church's prejudice, nor does it remove the prejudice from the one poorly conducted poll. Nor does your continual citing of that poll increase its (non exixtent) validity
The only thing that is under attack here is the power that has been enjoyed by a minority group for too long. That power started to fade as soon as the move to universal literacy got under way. If you want to hold religious beliefs, thats fine, nobody wants to interfere with your right to have an opinion. We just do not intend to tolerate your interference with other peoples right to hold a differing opinion, or lead a different lifestyle. The only proviso is that their (and your) lifestyle must not interfere with the rights of others.
And that is the bit that you find intolerable, not being allowed to impose your opinions on others. You keep calling me a liberal, and in comparison to you I suppose I am, but then again so were Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, and even Tamerlane

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@ Twisty

Can you please stop using the term "practising homosexuals" - it simply isn't a choice. For the very same reason that you are not a practising heterosexual (although that is debatable...), unless of course you consciously decide to find women attractive.

I for one don't recall ever making a conscious choice to be heterosexual. So, are you saying that you did? Or are you going to suggest that feelings for the opposite sex are "natural" and feelings for the same sex are "un-natural", and therefore being heterosexual does not necessitate the choice in the first place?

Clearly, the majority of people are heterosexual, but for the minority that are homosexual, we must build a tolerant society that utterly rejects discrimination on these grounds.

We must also build a society that seeks to educate misguided individuals such as yourself in the tenets of modern, enlightened civilisation.

Still, we'd have to accept some to be beyond all help...

AndyC

@BigD

Quote:

Also, practising homosexuals are no more a persecuted minority group than are train spotters. They both choose that lifestyle and suffer minor stigma due to that choice.

I don't remember anyone beeing teased, tormented or beaten up in school because it was suspected that they might be a train spotter.

@Rob

Nor bombs planted in a London train spotter pub killing 2 and injuring 81...


Yeah Billsey, no more a persecuted minority group than train spotters.

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@BigD

Quote:

This is not an equality issue however much you shout it. This is abhorrent anti-marriage posturing and liberal bias at work.

. Liberal isn't a bad thing. In fact Jesus as presented in the Gospels is basically all about love, acceptance, and care of the downtrodden. Read your Bible and you should be able to figure this out. Early Christian societies were Communistic of shared resources, shared responsibility, and shared care. Jeseus was a liberal.

@SpaceDruid

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BigD, there is not one person reading your views on this website that agrees with them, not one. You are entirely alone with your views here. Tpod (the person that started this thread), quickly distanced them self from your views hundreds of posts ago.

TPod did not distance himself from me but felt there was nothing else to add. See the quote below.

TPod quote:
Quote:

@all Anyone who has formed the view that I'm some how prejudice because I oppose this change have come to the wrong conclusion. My two gay friends & the other gay people I know accept me for who I am as I do them. I think this discussion has reached a natural end. Probably most UK amigaworld users who would be at all interested, have already taken a look by now. The ones that haven't can read through all the posts & will probably find their views already echoed. Last edited by Tpod on 02-Apr-2012 at 07:25 PM. Last edited by Tpod on 01-Apr-2012 at 12:44 PM. Last edited by Tpod on 01-Apr-2012 at 12:27 PM.

There have been further news updates that I have considered worthy of discussion over the last few months and of the course the colossal amount of responses in favour of marriage as we know and cherish it both on the C4M Petition and the SNP's Consultation itself, but I am beginning to tire of the 'New Atheist' mindset and it's failure to have constructive debate were it deems people of faith are involved. You really should re-engage with sensible debate and discussion with Christians as we have a history of tolerance, social care, providing education for the masses and protecting freedoms for all. We have a part to play in this debate and the sooner you accept that the better for all of us.

I'm sorry too that Neil Armstrong is no longer with us and believe he did a lot of good inspiring the next generation of scientist, astronomers, engineers, pilots and explorers. I believe in the same way marriage inspires us to be more than ourselves, to act in a selfless way and put our spouse first. There are of lot us and seemingly the majority, who believe that marriage is worth fighting for and are not willing to see it undermined, rewritten and demoted from its rightful special position as the foundation stone of society.

_________________
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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Rose

Quote:

Maybe because?

Hmmm... I would be a bit concerned about the salute that the Doctor

is giving in the image you posted.

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@SpaceDruid

Yeah I know you warned us all before and I know I said I'm outa here BUT...

Twisty wrote...
Quote:

with Christians as we have a history of tolerance, social care, providing education for the masses and protecting freedoms for all.

So I just had to say...

Jeebus freekin christy Twisty, do you realise what you just said !!!

So where are you doing your bit to protect the freedoms for homosexuals who fall into the "ALL" category ???

What hypocrite and even sadder than that what a LIAR...

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@BigD

Quote:

You really should re-engage with sensible debate and discussion with Christians as we have a history of tolerance, social care, providing education for the masses and protecting freedoms for all.

Did you actually bother to read my post about the true history of the christian religion. Are you seriously trying to deny that the events I referred to happened, or do you consider them to be "educational experiences" for the masses. Also, whose freedoms did the church protect in Granada when the terms of the treaty of Granada were abrogated and replaced by the Alhambra decree.

The information that I listed in that post is not an atheistic tirade, it is a simple list of historical facts that directly contradict the false image that you are attempting to portray. The simple fact remains that actions speak louder than words

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I believe in the same way marriage inspires us to be more than ourselves

This is one of the few statements that you have made that I wholeheartedly support. I am so pro marriage that I hope that Cameron stops pussyfooting around and spreads its benefits wider, to a group of people who have until now been denied the privilege. What you have failed to do in any of your comments is demonstrate any way in which your accusation holds water. The fact that two other people can change their status from co-habiting to married will not be detrimental to the value of my marriage regardless of the genders of that other couple.

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There are of lot us and seemingly the majority, who believe that marriage is worth fighting for

If you have any evidence that my marriage is under threat, that does not involve blind prejudice, lies, and hate, please feel free to share it. Until then kindly refrain from claiming to speak for me, as the strength of my marriage come from my feelings of affection toward my wife, not feelings of homophobia against total strangers.

_________________
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@Thread

I know it`s annoying when people do this but...I simply cannot believe that this pointless, circular and frankly offensive thread is still going.

Of course I`m not forced to read it but it`s like a hollow tooth - I just can`t resist poking at it!

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Fraggle

- insert profound text here -

@BigD

Sorry, whats that D? I wasn't listening. You started making noises that sounded exactly like the noises you've been making since the beginning of the thread.

/me reads previous post.

Yep, you've linked to that petition again, talked about the rest of the world having problems grasping the concept of debate, then proved yet again it's you with the problem by claiming you're speaking for the majority and then called me a "New Atheist" in an attempt to discredit me to all of your supporters who are obviously just being very quiet so you can talk clearly and without interruption...

It's nice that you went through the archives to fetch TPod's last post. That means you've been paying attention. So why have you not answered the literally hundreds (we're over 850 posts) of questions asked, not just by myself, but by the others in this thread?

To clarify things, TPod complained when a couple of us started using both your arguments against you by applying the same conditions to your own minority faiths, when we pointed this out to him he quickly changed the subject then invented reasons why he couldn't continue to have a debate.

Then you posted, essentially the same thing as you've been posting for some 40 pages, first of all by shouting at us, then endless repetition (as you are still doing). He briefly rejoined to say he didn't have a problem with gay people (which you clearly did - hence my saying he was distancing himself from you) and left.

If you can't figure this out for yourself, then it isn't much of a surprise because you've not been able to figure out pretty much anything that contradicts your nonsensical views. The important thing is he hasn't been involved with the thread since page 6. This is now page 43. And when he was last involved with this thread, he went out of his way to state he has gay friends and his problems weren't about prejudice, they were about cost.

You've not mentioned cost since about post 19 when the case was pretty much dismissed by all in the thread, since then you've tried to convince us that the issue is about democracy, the protection of human values, preventing the NAZI's from taking over, the end of civilisation, the threat to all marriages, rights to paedophiles being given if we open the floodgates, the creation myth, why all science is wrong, the importance of your God, why homosexuality is a choice, why the bisexual man that married was heterosexual because of the power of prayer and now the threat of "New Atheist".

As for tiring of this 'New Atheist' mindset you've recently discovered mentioned on a website somewhere and adopted it as your new slogan, there's nothing new about it. It's called factual debate, reasoned argument, evidence based theory. Basically what everyone other than you have been doing in this thread.

You clearly tire of it because it's very hard to find webpages that support your claims without sounding like they come from a mental patient because all the fact based stuff contradicts you. If you had, you wouldn't keep regurgitating the same stuff that has been discredited numerous times already.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 26-Aug-2012 at 09:10 PM.

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Stuck this in it's own post as it was a bit buried in the last one

@BigotD/Twisty/Billsey

Oh and just to add a little bit more perspective to your petition, the West Coast (railway) Mainline franchise was taken away from Virgin and given to a new company. Somebody made a petition on the government website to give it back to Virgin. In a week, it has (at the time of writing) 131,252 signatures.

At it current rate, it will surpass your petition in a couple of weeks. Yours has been heavily campaigned for months now has the backing of a number of religious organisations and is less important to the general public than a private companies ownership of a regional rail network in a country that has largely given up on trains. That's how important your views are to the majority of the people in this country.

But they all must be "New Atheists" as well, so you should probably just do what you do and ignore them.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 26-Aug-2012 at 09:20 PM.
Last edited by SpaceDruid on 26-Aug-2012 at 09:15 PM.

_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

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