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      /  Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
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elwood 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 26-Jun-2012 17:56:00
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 3428
From: Lyon, France

@number6

Many thanks for that. I didn't know it and I expect a lot of us didn't know either.
So overlay is obsolete. Cool

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itix 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 26-Jun-2012 19:17:59
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@number6

Quote:

Is it necessary for data to be in YUV form to facilitate "on the fly" changes to brightness, contrast, tint, saturation, etc. to an A/V file?


It can be done to RGB data.

Quote:

Does one method have an advantage over another?


With YUV you can encode more pixels in less bytes so if you are using CPU to process data YUV can be faster. On the other hand Amiga gfx system (and many other gfx systems neither) dont understand YUV at all. There RGB is an only option.

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olegil 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 26-Jun-2012 19:26:58
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@itix

not sure if I agree that YUV would be faster to process by CPU, that entirely depends on which operation you're doing to it.

But due to it storing less information than RGB it sure is smaller.

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number6 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 26-Jun-2012 19:26:59
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@itix

Thanks. I was curious about speed difference and you made it clear.

@Olegil

Which method would a non-linear editor likely use?

#6

Last edited by number6 on 26-Jun-2012 at 07:29 PM.

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Crumb 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 26-Jun-2012 19:27:36
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@elwood

Quote:

So overlay is obsolete. Cool


So are OSes without memory protection that only run in single core. The current problem is that current software uses overlay and current drivers for PCIe cards don´t provide it and probably won´t for a very long time. With advanced GPUs it´s even possible to develop a video player that decodes the stream without relying much in the cpu but doesn´t mean you have that kind of player and that kind of drivers.

If Hans has need years to finish basic drivers with only 2D acceleration you can guess he´ll need many more years to implement proper 3D acceleration.

The problem is not so much HOW overlay is implemented but if it IS implemented. If there´s no form of overlay API compatibility that will only lead to poor performance on video playback.

Of course having both overlay and overlay emulation using a texture is better but saying "bah! overlay is obsolete" makes me wonder why you are still using obsolete OSes that can´t even play videos properly (and that only use one core and that lack memory protection).

PS: Just in case you have not understood it: rejecting overlay means you won´t be able to watch videos properly in your Sam460 for many years because 3d support won´t come anytime soon, and after 3d support they would have to emulate overlay and even with that emulation it would be slower than real overlay.

Last edited by Crumb on 26-Jun-2012 at 07:33 PM.
Last edited by Crumb on 26-Jun-2012 at 07:30 PM.

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nubechecorre 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 26-Jun-2012 19:35:53
#26 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Nov-2003
Posts: 895
From: San remo -Italy-

@Crumb

Yes, Hans took a long time to create these drivers but now, as far as i understood, he works full time to the project, and this explains why it was/is a big effort for A-Eon to pay Hans..

So let's see now how long does it take to "finish" the job..

Last edited by nubechecorre on 26-Jun-2012 at 07:36 PM.

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Crumb 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 26-Jun-2012 19:43:21
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@number6

Good job collecting the info.

For what it's worth, I completely support Karlos on this. Overlay looks like a cool idea until you try something as funky as playing a video while playing a video (DVD + flash open at the same time, for instance). Then it becomes a matter of "which video did I open first".


Amigans use a concept called "screens" for their apps that doesn´t seem to exist in other OSes.

All that GPU stuff looks easy until somebody has to implement drivers.

BTW, you can use OpenGL for inactive windows and for active ones/fullscreen you can use always overlay.

Let´s see current situation:
-no 3d drivers for PCIe cards, years spent on developing simple 2d drivers
-no overlay emulation using textures
-no real overlay
-no compromise nor timeframe for 3d drivers
-no compromise nor timeframe for overlay emulation using 3d drivers

so It´s very funny you talk about playing DVDs and watching flash videos when current systems are totally unable to do that. I wonder if users really use the OS or just spend the day dreaming about new features.


Quote:

Putting in man-hours to support overlay now just doesn't make sense.


Putting man hours developing 2d drivers for cards that won´t allow you to run 3d apps nor videos makes me wonder why would anyone want to buy something different than R9200/256MB.

Following the logic of those praising Hans words I wonder why you don´t shout "using cpu to play videos is obsolete, we´ll use GPU to play videos" and wait for years until some linux player is released.

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Tomas 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 26-Jun-2012 20:48:56
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

I am no developer or expert, but no overlay will afaik result in no vsync in videos as well. So I would say that it is pretty important if that is the case.
And from experience no overlay also severely reduces video quality due to not having proper scaling.

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Franko 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 26-Jun-2012 21:36:28
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Jun-2010
Posts: 2809
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

Quote:

ChrisH wrote:
@olegil
I second thanking number6 for collecting the info. Not everyone has time to follow (and posting in...) every single thread on teh internets (looks idly in Franko's direction).


And I third it and fortify it with vitamins...

Gawd... I was only saying it don't look very good when you have to nick posts every few minutes from another site just to make your own posts...

I know Number6 said himself that posting links doesn't work for the most part but what next for those who can't be bothered or are too lazy to click on a link !!! supply them with a home help to read out the posts for them...

Anywhoo, that idle look you just gave me could be down to what's called called a "lazy eye" (not sure of the proper medical term for it) but the optician can fix it for you...

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thellier 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 27-Jun-2012 8:26:27
#30 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 263
From: Paris

@AmigaBlitter
>would like to see some example for any of the mentioned features "scaling/filtering/rotating a square texture (a bitmap) is easy..."
Hello
I dont have the time to wrote a full example now
But here it is the idea:

Have a look to
Aminet/Wazp3D/Wazp3D-src/soft3d_compositing.c
(but most of the code is useless for doing something so easy....)
You will see how to set up a texture/bitmap for os4-compositing with
COMP3D_CreateTexture()
then just define 2 triangles that draw a rectangle on 4 points
then you can change the rectangle size or rotation
for(n=0;n!=4;n++)
(
rotate( &p[n]);
resize( &p[n]);
)
resize() rotate() will contain simples 2d rotation/sizing formulas (see google)
Of course rotation should be ajusted to use rectangle's center as axis


Then draw the 2 triangles with filtering enabled
error = CompositeTags(COMPOSITE_Src,
texbm,screenbm,
COMPTAG_VertexArray, P,
COMPTAG_VertexFormat,COMPVF_STW0_Present,
COMPTAG_NumTriangles,2,
COMPTAG_DestX,screenx,
COMPTAG_DestY,screeny,
COMPTAG_DestWidth ,screenlarge,
COMPTAG_DestHeight,screenhigh,
COMPTAG_Flags,COMPFLAG_HardwareOnly | COMPFLAG_SrcFilter|COMPFLAG_IgnoreDestAlpha,
TAG_DONE);

Alain Thellier






Last edited by thellier on 27-Jun-2012 at 08:33 AM.
Last edited by thellier on 27-Jun-2012 at 08:31 AM.
Last edited by thellier on 27-Jun-2012 at 08:28 AM.
Last edited by thellier on 27-Jun-2012 at 08:27 AM.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 27-Jun-2012 8:54:54
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3512
From: Unknown

@thellier

Thank you. I hope that some simple example will come with the next sdk.

PM for you

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olegil 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 27-Jun-2012 9:00:08
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Crumb

seems you missed the 3D demo Hans already showed

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Crumb 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 27-Jun-2012 9:12:21
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@olegil

I didn't. There's a huge difference between a "hello world" and the final product. And I doubt OS4 users with PCIe cards have access to both accelerated video&3d graphics in at least 2 years.

Last edited by Crumb on 27-Jun-2012 at 09:13 AM.

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cha05e90 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 27-Jun-2012 11:56:19
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1275
From: Germany

@Crumb

Quote:
you won´t be able to watch videos properly in your Sam460 for many years because 3d support won´t come anytime soon

Quote:
And I doubt OS4 users with PCIe cards have access to both accelerated video&3d graphics in at least 2 years.

Aha. And your useless conclusion is - what exactly?

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Crumb 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 27-Jun-2012 12:05:05
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@cha05e90

Quote:
Aha. And your useless conclusion is - what exactly?


It will be useless to be buy PCIe cards because R9200 offers much more (Overlay to play videos and 3d for stuff like Blender or 3d games) for at least two years. And despiting the fact that having overlay&3d right now and use your computer right now is much more interesting some fanboys will claim overlay is obsolete and will prefer to brag about having a PCIe card with no drivers that take advantage of it.

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Spectre660 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 27-Jun-2012 12:19:47
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3918
From: Unknown

@Crumb

I would bet that things will happen faster than in two years time.
In the interim even Trevor is experimenting with multiple video cards at the same time.
PCI 9250 AND Radeon HD. So it is possible to enjoy both option NOW .


Quote:

Crumb wrote:
@cha05e90

Quote:
Aha. And your useless conclusion is - what exactly?


It will be useless to be buy PCIe cards because R9200 offers much more (Overlay to play videos and 3d for stuff like Blender or 3d games) for at least two years. And despiting the fact that having overlay&3d right now and use your computer right now is much more interesting some fanboys will claim overlay is obsolete and will prefer to brag about having a PCIe card with no drivers that take advantage of it.

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nikosidis 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 27-Jun-2012 12:51:21
#37 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@Crumb

I agree with you 100%. In AROS world I been fighting for years to get overlay supported without luck. Like you said I don't either care if it is obsolette or what it is called, since we don't have anything else to scale or boost video performance. Maybe blabla Gallium 3D could do something about that, but I seen nothing yet!!

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KimmoK 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 27-Jun-2012 12:56:38
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Crumb

>If Hans has need years to finish basic drivers with only 2D acceleration you can guess he´ll need many more years to implement proper 3D acceleration.

To my understanding 2D means that you have to do everything from scratch, while for 3D it's more about porting Gallium and Mesa to AOS4.

And IIRC, Hans does not do the 3D part. Gallium + Mesa is being handled by Hyperion.

> Just in case you have not understood it: rejecting overlay means you won´t be able to watch videos properly in your Sam460 for many years because 3d support won´t come anytime soon, and after 3d support they would have to emulate overlay and even with that emulation it would be slower than real overlay.

Anyway I rather see the texture based solution in the future than old overlay mode in the future. (and I doubt overlay would give any big boost on my tiny SAM440, for HD video I need to use another HW and my next AmigaHW will have PCIe slots & more modern GPU than the M9 caliber that Amigans so far had)

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cha05e90 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 27-Jun-2012 13:48:45
#39 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1275
From: Germany

@Crumb

Quote:
It will be useless to be buy PCIe cards because R9200 offers much more

Ok, for the current situation you're IMHO right. Because of this I never understood why everyone's so in hurry.

Quote:
some fanboys will claim overlay is obsolete and will prefer to brag about having a PCIe card with no drivers that take advantage of it

Really? Maybe I misunderstood some of that postings - but *now* overlay isn't obsolete at all. Nevertheless it might be (or will) be obsolete when full 3D hw acceleration is implemented. I can't find anything wrong about this statement yet (i.e. Windows systems use this for video as well, so why not under an AmigaOS regime?)

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nikosidis 
Re: Overlay - Facts and corrections about misconceptions
Posted on 27-Jun-2012 13:55:52
#40 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@cha05e90

You have one problem. Windows use real GFX drivers from the vendors . Gallium 3D is far behind in both support and performance. I read somewhere that they are working on hardware video accelleration, but as far as I know it is not working as it supposed to yet.

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