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      /  AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
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PosterThread
Yssing 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 23-Jul-2013 12:08:48
#21 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 919
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

Well those 2 years havent passed yet, besides he never made any promises, he said "I'm willing to take a bet that it won't take 2 years ;)"

That is not the same as promising it. Just to be clear!

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ssolie 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 23-Jul-2013 15:50:18
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2692
From: Alberta, Canada

@cgutjahr
Quote:

cgutjahr wrote:
@ssolie
Quote:

First, I never liked calling the feature "SMP"

If that's true, why did you repeatedly refer to it as "SMP" yourself?

Because effective communication involves understanding your audience.

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Zylesea 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 0:33:57
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2023
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@ssolie

Quote:
.

Quote:

First, I never liked calling the feature "SMP"

If that's true, why did you repeatedly refer to it as "SMP" yourself?

>Because effective communication involves understanding your audience.


No. Effective communcation means the correct usage of a well defined terminology. The whole issue many folks here (me included) about that claim OS4 will get "SMP" w/o braeking compability was that *SMP* is just not applyable to AOS w/o breaking compability. ASMP of course is (and one ASMP method was for example teh PowerUp library). And while ASMP is definitely not wothless it is quite another class than SMP because existing applications will not benefit directly.

Last edited by Zylesea on 24-Jul-2013 at 09:14 AM.
Last edited by Zylesea on 24-Jul-2013 at 12:37 AM.
Last edited by Zylesea on 24-Jul-2013 at 12:36 AM.
Last edited by Zylesea on 24-Jul-2013 at 12:35 AM.

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agami 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 8:40:21
#24 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 484
From: Melbourne, Australia

@thread

In "The Hobbyist's Guide to the AmigaOne Galaxy" it clearly states "The answer to the Amiga question of multiprocessing, 3D support, and everything is OS 4.2".

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Smurfen 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 9:25:25
#25 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 160
From: Unknown

@Zylesea

Quote:
No. Effective communcation means the correct usage of a well defined terminology. The whole issue many folks here (me included) about that claim OS4 will get "SMP" w/o braeking compability was that *SMP* is just not applyable to AOS w/o breaking compability. ASMP of course is (and one ASMP method was for example teh PowerUp library). And while ASMP is definitely not wothless it is quite another class than SMP because existing applications will not benefit directly.


Imho, existing m68k applications, are not really the applications I will use primarily for ever and ever, and therefore I would not mind if the new SMP/ASMP/xyzMP/whateverthenameisMP does not benefit them. If the OS utilises the new HW I will be happy!

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blizz1220 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 9:58:28
#26 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@Smurfen

Quote:
Imho, existing m68k applications, are not really the applications I will use primarily for ever and ever, and therefore I would not mind if the new SMP/ASMP/xyzMP/whateverthenameisMP does not benefit them. If the OS utilises the new HW I will be happy!


It would break compatibility with existing AmigaOS 4 software ...

Ironically you could still use 68k software in an emulator which
would probably run even faster then now if optimized ...

Difference between true SMP and AMP are mostly in the amount
of speed that would be gained and also in the fact that if SMP
was possible you wouldn't need to rewrite the existing software
while using AMP you would need to rewrite existing software ...

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Signal 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 11:10:01
#27 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 509
From: USA

@Smurfen

Quote:

Smurfen wrote:
If the OS utilises the new HW I will be happy!

DITTO!

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ssolie 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 16:11:41
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2692
From: Alberta, Canada

@Smurfen
Quote:

Imho, existing m68k applications, are not really the applications I will use primarily for ever and ever, and therefore I would not mind if the new SMP/ASMP/xyzMP/whateverthenameisMP does not benefit them. If the OS utilises the new HW I will be happy!

That is kind of the point I was trying to make. So if we do tie 68K apps to a single core does that mean it is still SMP? More importantly, does anybody really care? (rhetorical questions)

Now, I could just call it "SMP" even though it may (but not necessarily) be delivered as a hybrid but then you always and forever will have some egghead that just must absolutely positively correct you or die of internal bleeding due to the strain caused by holding it in.

The goal is and still remains to be true SMP but, like Smurfen is pointing out, I think most people don't really care as long as the hardware is being utilized.

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Signal 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 16:37:42
#29 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 509
From: USA

@ssolie

Quote:

I think most people don't really care as long as the hardware is being utilized.


And not just SMP, or AMP, or BMP. The HARDWARE!

Hm,.... now I'm hungry for a BLT.

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cgutjahr 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 17:05:29
#30 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 807
From: Unknown

@ssolie

Quote:

The goal is and still remains to be true SMP

So you're back to referring to SMP as SMP? For somebody who doesn't like the term, you're using it a lot.

Let me get this straight: The OS4 team is trying to implement "true" SMP. If it works out, the system will be referred to as "SMP". If not, something else will be implemented and it will be called something else. Is that correct?

Wouldn't it have been a lot easier if you had just said so, instead of making up alleged "eggheads" that force you to invent new technical terms?

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Overflow 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 17:26:42
#31 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1388
From: Norway

@cgutjahr

From what ive read over the years here people love to dissect every sentance and theorycraft
up and down, back and forth, no matter what you say.

Trevor seems to be tackling it with a more open approach, ignoring the noise.

Hyperion doesnt release information until they are "done".

Cant really blame them. If they spend all their time on forums to explain why the comma was
in this or that position in a sentance Id wager the AOS development time would take even more time.
(yes, im being somewhat facetious to make a point).

Last edited by Overflow on 24-Jul-2013 at 05:32 PM.
Last edited by Overflow on 24-Jul-2013 at 05:30 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 17:43:25
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10691
From: Norway

@cgutjahr

I guess what Solie is trying to say is that it's going to be HMP or Hyperion Multi Processing. Aka do whatever it takes to make it work whit AmigaOS, it might not be a text book definition of Multi Processing.

As for AMP, I don't think this approach will be taken; because it has so many limitations, and requires developers to write code specifically take advantage of second core.

The attempts to reduce the amount of forbids, is going in the direction SMP like approach.

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wawa 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 17:44:35
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5714
From: Unknown

@ssolie

Quote:
Now, I could just call it "SMP" even though it may (but not necessarily) be delivered as a hybrid

is this a hint at that you may end up either wit a "hybrid smp" (but not necessarily) but rather there is a possibility to have two independent systems, one to run legacy apps for single core and the second being smp for multiple cores, yet the applications for that need to be developed first (or rather ported)?

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vox 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 17:51:28
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@wawa

I`m not a tech boy, but as far as I do understand, SMP to be trully used,
needs "multithreaded" apps, so its long to go.

Lets see what will OS 4.2 offer

Its too early to speculate, and any progress is better to none.

Idea that SMP is impossible, as far as I have seen comes from MorphOS
camp and even those guys are well versed in old AmigaOS 3, they are
not the ones that do develop AmigaOS 4, as well as it seems they have
abandoned Qbox approach (promised SMP for MorphOS) even they
do have a target platform (G5 Mac).

We`ll see how OS 4.2 will do, but it really could be a major milestone
in AmigaOS development - Gallium, SMP, beyond 2GB barrier and maybe
few little candies and I will be willing to say it deserves way higher OS version
number

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blizz1220 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 18:10:18
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@vox

Quote:
Idea that SMP is impossible, as far as I have seen comes from MorphOS camp and even those guys are well versed in old AmigaOS 3, they are not the ones that do develop AmigaOS 4,


The idea that SMP is indeed absolutely impossible comes
from anyone who knows what he's talking about not from
Morphos or Aros camp ...

Just stop calling it SMP ...

Last edited by blizz1220 on 24-Jul-2013 at 06:10 PM.
Last edited by blizz1220 on 24-Jul-2013 at 06:10 PM.

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vox 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 18:25:55
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@blizz1220

Quote:
The idea that SMP is indeed absolutely impossible comes from anyone who knows what he's talking about not from Morphos or Aros camp ... Just stop calling it SMP ...


Any kind of dual core support. I don`t see it in AROS plans, or MorphOS plans.
So if Hyperion does any kind of implementation, will it become feature
advanced than those? Well, its just one feature, but set by a path
of hardware (X1000 and beyond).

Now, come back and think. If it was impossible why A-EONs plan would
be to have dual core and more machines only, when it would be cheaper
to stay with any single core PPC CPU?

Last edited by vox on 24-Jul-2013 at 06:26 PM.

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wawa 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 18:35:54
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5714
From: Unknown

@vox

Quote:
Could you do some version that can be fast and hosted inside MorphOS/AmigaOS 4 68k emulation?


what aros plans were you looking into actually? btw would not be surprised if smp was perfectly possible on aros, aros has already some implemented infrastructure for that afaik, but then they dont need to care about backwards compatibility anyway except for 68k. so it may not be fair to compare with os4.

Quote:
I`m not a tech boy, but as far as I do understand, SMP to be trully used, needs "multithreaded" apps, so its long to go

no, you will have already an advantage running multiple single threaded apps in multitasking. i dont know if and how the os4 implementation will deal with this. to me what ssolie says sounds like you may have to reboot the system to switch between legacy and multicore mode.

Last edited by wawa on 24-Jul-2013 at 06:40 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 24-Jul-2013 at 06:39 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 24-Jul-2013 at 06:39 PM.

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Signal 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 18:40:14
#38 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 509
From: USA

Wait... I got one!

CMP. Cooperative Multi Processing.

A little of this, a little that, put it in a pot and cook it till it's hot.
Pour it in a pan, fast as you can.
Does not matter what it is, makes no difference what it's not.
Get it going, so we can have fun. Now back to work, and "Gitter done".


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blizz1220 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 18:47:34
#39 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@vox

Quote:
Now, come back and think. If it was impossible why A-EONs plan would be to have dual core and more machines only, when it would be cheaper to stay with any single core PPC CPU?


Because single core PPC that could be used in AmigaOne
x1000 simply doesn't exist , it would be another Sam460
then ... Maybe just a little faster ...

It was dual core or nothing and Linux can use it ...

If you all listened to those people that knew what
they were talking about they would also tell you
there is no need for SMP either ...

It's fast enough on a single core for the needs
of a hobby market ...

Last edited by blizz1220 on 24-Jul-2013 at 06:52 PM.

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Boot_WB 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 19:01:46
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@vox

Quote:
Now, come back and think. If it was impossible why A-EONs plan would
be to have dual core and more machines only, when it would be cheaper
to stay with any single core PPC CPU?


You're seem to be inferring Hyperions's future plans from A-Eon's past and current actions.

A-Eon has successfully created and sold a dual-core AmigaOne system, and appears to be in the process of creating another.

It's now up to Hyperion to make AmigaOS multicore to fully utilise it*.

* On the back of "More than 200, less than 2000" OEM AmigaOS 4.1 sales (which is why a low-cost 'cashcow' machine bringing higher unit sales of AmigaOS4.1 would seem a more logical choice to pay for/accelerate such development, even if no money was made on the hardware itself).

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