Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
5620 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
Home
Features
News
Forums
Classifieds
Links
Downloads
Extras
OS4 Zone
IRC Network
AmigaWorld Radio
Newsfeed
Top Members
Amiga Dealers
Information
About Us
FAQs
Advertise
Polls
Terms of Service
Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

(Uses JAVA Applet and Port 1024)
Visit the Chatroom Website

Who's Online
 91 guest(s) on-line.
 1 member(s) on-line.


 utri007

You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 utri007:  3 mins ago
 asymetrix:  7 mins ago
 tbreeden:  7 mins ago
 Drewlio77:  12 mins ago
 DFergFLA:  17 mins ago
 number6:  21 mins ago
 BigD:  21 mins ago
 AndreasM:  27 mins ago
 g01df1sh:  34 mins ago
 Hypex:  50 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4 Software
      /  AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Register To Post

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 )
PosterThread
olegil 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 21:36:33
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5886
From: Work

@blizz1220

Nothing can ever be fast enough. It can be "as fast as it can be for the time being", and even (not talking about PPC here) "the fastest there is", but even that is "not as fast as what will come".

If Hyperion can make SMP for 4.2 with single-core affinity for applications made for 4.1-and-below this would in my book cover all bases.

forbid/permit would still need to be rewritten, but that's about it for the "classicy" software.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
edponpon 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Jul-2013 22:16:28
#42 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2007
Posts: 279
From: USA, The World Police

@vox

You bring up good points, which I knew about, but still wish the old Commodore was still around. If they were we'd have the next stage to their Amiga dream, possibly all the old developers around. . . man I miss the good old days of Amiga. It's just a shame more people didn't get to live the glory days of Amiga, got to see it come through to modern times, with massive support like Mac and Win gets. Hell, I'd be happy if we had a user base as large as Linux. The point still stands though - we need big companies to somehow support Amiga. Hyperion is doing a super job helping us re-live the glory days, I just wish someone major would swoop in and take notice of what's going on with Amiga now and help out. Thanks.

Ed

_________________
Amiga 1200 - ACA 1233 68030 128MB Ram
8GB CF With tons of Classics

"That which doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger" - Someone important, but I forgot who

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
vox 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 25-Jul-2013 18:58:52
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@edponpon
Quote:
You bring up good points, which I knew about, but still wish the old Commodore was still around. If they were we'd have the next stage to their Amiga dream, possibly all the old developers around. . . man I miss the good old days of Amiga. It's just a shame more people didn't get to live the glory days of Amiga, got to see it come through to modern times, with massive support like Mac and Win gets. Hell, I'd be happy if we had a user base as large as Linux.


I am very glad I can come to common ground with past CUSA supporters

Commodore purchased Amiga 1000 system and AmigaOS from third party (Hi-Torro) and while OCS was miracle at the times, ECS and AGA were not best graphics at time, and sound chip remained untouched all the time. While Commodore engineers did a great job in Zorro bus and software section in developing AmigaOS up to OS 3.1, management was awful, scrapping A3000+ with AGA and pushing unneeded A500+ and A600 models, overspending etc. and ultimately bringing itself down ...

I will here remind people that Commodore also planed to ditch Amiga (68k, AGA, AmigaOS) completely with AAA project anyway and go for ... Windows NT if I recall it good. So death of Commodore was kind of good thing, even it meant further struggle, that has brought OS 3.5-OS 4.

So Commodores fall maybe is end of Amiga domination or world competition, but luckily to users enthusiasm and few good companies, it has survived to the day.

But I don`t believe it will ever have massive community and user base as large as Linux, unless itself also becomes open source and multi platform, which was key of survival of Linux.

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
ExiE 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 25-Jul-2013 20:29:30
#44 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-May-2004
Posts: 437
From: Czech Amiga News

@vox
Quote:
Commodore purchased Amiga 1000 system and AmigaOS from third party (Hi-Torro)
Hi-Torro was renamed to Amiga, Inc. long before Commodore and even Atari being interested in Amiga technology.

Quote:
I will here remind people that Commodore also planed to ditch Amiga (68k, AGA, AmigaOS) completely with AAA project anyway and go for ... Windows NT

huh, this statement is greatly exaggerated. There was official Unix port available for Amiga beside Amiga OS and similar situation would probably apply to Windows NT. Not to mention leave own OS would mean lost complete control over the platform and even Commodore wouldnt be so stupid but all this is merely speculation.
check this one http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/winnt.html for some more info

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
vox 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 25-Jul-2013 21:11:35
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@ExiE

.Quote:
Fortunately the AmiWindows NT relationship may not be over yet. The HP-RISC system jointly developed by Commodore promised compatibility with the Microsoft OS and the AmigaNG system is likely to include the ability to emulate an x86 processor and provide the Amiga with 100% NT compatibility at last.


AmigaNGs failed to emulate x86 that well. Who knows, maybe patched Win2000 might
after all be usable in QEMU on Linux on X1000, if I am lucky

Thanks. I ment it was supposed to be possible OS for Hombre, not A4000.

Maybe they had some other OS idea in sleeve, but it seems they were not
interested to develop AmigaOS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Hombre_chipset

So their next Amiga could probably be AmigaOS less.

In such terms, MorphOS, AmigaOS 4 and AROS saved the day.

I do understand that people do hold Commodore because of good years
from VIC to AmigaCD 32, but seems their managment was really desparate
and strange in the end days.

Haven`t yet got Raise and fall of Commodore to get all the ropes

I am not talking about AmigaOS developers or engineers. Management

Last edited by vox on 25-Jul-2013 at 09:16 PM.
Last edited by vox on 25-Jul-2013 at 09:16 PM.
Last edited by vox on 25-Jul-2013 at 09:15 PM.

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
wawa 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 25-Jul-2013 21:22:20
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5714
From: Unknown

@vox

what are you want to tell us? whatever would commodore do if it didnt went bankrupt or not, is speculation. probably they would ditch the amiga line altogether as they ditched c64 line, it was probably too late to modernize it anymore. why has that any relevance for us today? except that the only computers called "amiga" were the commodore amigas, and nothing will change that objective fact.. please get over with it..

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
vox 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 25-Jul-2013 21:28:19
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@wawa

Surely, but somehow Amiga to community means not only Commodore machines.

There were Commodore Amiga Mini`s for short period of time with brand new CommodoreOS

Quote:
If Hyperion can make SMP for 4.2 with single-core affinity for applications made for 4.1-and-below this would in my book cover all bases.


Completely agreed. But yet to come. That, 3D drivers and Libre Office would be great improvements.

Last edited by vox on 25-Jul-2013 at 09:36 PM.
Last edited by vox on 25-Jul-2013 at 09:30 PM.
Last edited by vox on 25-Jul-2013 at 09:29 PM.

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
wawa 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 25-Jul-2013 21:41:36
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5714
From: Unknown

@vox

Quote:
Surely, but somehow Amiga to community means not only Commodore machines. There were Commodore Amiga Mini`s for short period of time with brand new CommodoreOS


perhaps, if you insist. there were some photoshopped fotos, but i have never seen any, heard of any otherwise and i doubt there exists any. and if it does, it doenst fall much into relevance..

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
vox 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 25-Jul-2013 21:46:38
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@wawa

Quote:
perhaps, if you insist. there were some photoshopped fotos, but i have never seen any, heard of any otherwise and i doubt there exists any. and if it does, it doenst fall much into relevance..


Well, I can confirm just one alien system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_fuf2WS5LM

Even there were two guides how to build it on your own

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
wawa 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 26-Jul-2013 0:35:02
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5714
From: Unknown

@vox

Quote:
Even there were two guides how to build it on your own

as if i need to build amiga on my own.:)

Last edited by wawa on 26-Jul-2013 at 12:35 AM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 26-Jul-2013 0:37:19
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10691
From: Norway

@wawa

cardboard and scissors and some amiga stickers and you be there in a no time, it does not even need to boot AmigaOS
As Vox has shown you.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Apr-2014 at 07:08 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Jul-2013 at 12:39 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Jul-2013 at 12:37 AM.

_________________
Please check out my software:
Excalibur, Basilisk 2, AmigaInputAnywhere.
LiveForIt-Music
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Vistaus 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 24-Apr-2014 10:57:15
#52 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 332
From: Almere, The Netherlands

@Spirantho

You raise a valid point, although it's not corporate suicide per se in the year of 2014 because we do have Kickstarter and Indiegogo. If enough Amiga users (and maybe some potential users) donate, at least part (or half, in an optimistic case) of the budget could be bridged.

_________________
Proud user of AmigaOS 4.1 on an AmigaOne 500. This is the first Amiga I've ever had so I don't know all the ins and outs of AmigaOS yet, so I'm sorry if I'm asking noob questions and stuff.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
QuikSanz 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 25-Apr-2014 5:15:41
#53 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1066
From: Surf City - Huntington Beach, Ca.

@Signal

Quote:
by Signal on 24-Jul-2013 10:40:14 Wait... I got one! CMP. Cooperative Multi Processing. A little of this, a little that, put it in a pot and cook it till it's hot. Pour it in a pan, fast as you can. Does not matter what it is, makes no difference what it's not. Get it going, so we can have fun. Now back to work, and "Gitter done".


This could be interesting. What if they rewrite Exec/scheduler to run in 2 modes? One that just passes blocks of info to the cores for single thread apps and one for SMP apps written for it.

Chris

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
KimmoK 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 25-Apr-2014 8:18:10
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5045
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@thread

Modern CPUs can run multiple operating systems with HW assisted virtualization.
One thread (or core?) needs to be allocated to single core using OS kernell while the rest can be allocated to SMP aware kernell.

Surely it would be easy task if we had support from freescale... but doubt they bother with our niche.

The end result would not be perfect as the one thread would not be in efficient use ... untill all legacy SW is is ported to SMP aware side or software sandbox is done for legacy SW.

To my understanding, we need separate schedulers per every 8 cores, as the scaling advantage stops at 8 (too much work for one cheduler etc., as seen on codewarrior qoriq videos).
So using HW virtualization (and combination of AMP+SMP) is the only futureproof solution???


(we might need one main kernel, one legacy handling client kernel and SMP client kernels per every 8 cores. Job distribution to those SMP kernels could be done little like it was done by powerUP or by screamernet.

ok... now I got idea (brainfart) cooking for AOS5/MOS4 ...

Janus UAE on AROS demonstrates one initial way of fusing apps from different kernell spaces into one user GUI/desktop. We should study it more.... this could be some kind of killer app/solution for high performance NG Amigas..)


NG Application: ApplicationMain + MultithreadedApplicationClients. ApplicationMain splits + schedules the job at hand to Clients. There is one client per every pool of 8 cores/threads. Client then further splits the work to available cores. etc...

Perhaps this is what ssolie meant when he said he does not like the term "SMP" for AOS4.2 multiprocessing. They are combining AMP and SMP to a HybridMP! AmigaOS would be the first desktop OS capable of fully (linear scaling) utilizing 24 cores!!

Last edited by KimmoK on 25-Apr-2014 at 08:26 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 25-Apr-2014 at 08:25 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 25-Apr-2014 at 08:23 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 25-Apr-2014 at 08:22 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
megol 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 25-Apr-2014 14:26:28
#55 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 190
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:
@thread

Modern CPUs can run multiple operating systems with HW assisted virtualization.
One thread (or core?) needs to be allocated to single core using OS kernell while the rest can be allocated to SMP aware kernell.


Virtualization isn't related to multiprocessing so I don't know what you are trying to say.

Quote:

Surely it would be easy task if we had support from freescale... but doubt they bother with our niche.


What would be easy? AFAIK PPC is capable of virtualization in software since the beginning and there is no need for vendor support, just programmers.

Quote:

The end result would not be perfect as the one thread would not be in efficient use ... untill all legacy SW is is ported to SMP aware side or software sandbox is done for legacy SW.


All legacy SW can't be ported. The AOS4 team have had strong words against the sandboxing idea before so how likely is that to be used?

Sandboxing is the only way to extend an Amiga OS system in a compatible way IMHO, at least without specialized hardware support.

Quote:

To my understanding, we need separate schedulers per every 8 cores, as the scaling advantage stops at 8 (too much work for one cheduler etc., as seen on codewarrior qoriq videos).
So using HW virtualization (and combination of AMP+SMP) is the only futureproof solution???


Now I'm curious why there is a problem with > 8 cores per scheduler for Qoriq.
In general there is no problem scaling to more than 8 cores

Quote:


(we might need one main kernel, one legacy handling client kernel and SMP client kernels per every 8 cores. Job distribution to those SMP kernels could be done little like it was done by powerUP or by screamernet.

ok... now I got idea (brainfart) cooking for AOS5/MOS4 ...

Janus UAE on AROS demonstrates one initial way of fusing apps from different kernell spaces into one user GUI/desktop. We should study it more.... this could be some kind of killer app/solution for high performance NG Amigas..)


NG Application: ApplicationMain + MultithreadedApplicationClients. ApplicationMain splits + schedules the job at hand to Clients. There is one client per every pool of 8 cores/threads. Client then further splits the work to available cores. etc...


Again this magic number. I don't like magic numbers, they are a good indication the problem space isn't understood enough.

Quote:

Perhaps this is what ssolie meant when he said he does not like the term "SMP" for AOS4.2 multiprocessing. They are combining AMP and SMP to a HybridMP! AmigaOS would be the first desktop OS capable of fully (linear scaling) utilizing 24 cores!!


What makes you think this is a new idea, that this somehow can scale linearly and that this is a _good_ idea?

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 25-Apr-2014 14:39:14
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10691
From: Norway

@megol

UAE is a sandbox, no need to make a new UAE when some one already done that.

If AmigaOS4.0 software breaks in AmigaOS4.2 its not big deal, most of the developers are active and can recompile there software if it needs some small changes.

A sandbox is more work then its worth to make.

_________________
Please check out my software:
Excalibur, Basilisk 2, AmigaInputAnywhere.
LiveForIt-Music
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
megol 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 25-Apr-2014 15:30:42
#57 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 190
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

No UAE is an emulator, something quite different to normal sandboxing. It emulates the processor and chipset with enough precision to run hardware hitting timing dependent programs. Doing this is very expensive.

A sandbox however is just separating programs from the hardware. Most modern OS use memory protection - one kind of sandboxing. Some systems support jails or the equivalent that not only separates processes memory wise but also limits them to a certain set of resources. The later is a tiny bit more expensive but not by far comparable with using a system emulator, at most there have to be some indirection when looking up resources.


 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
KimmoK 
Re: AmigaOS 4 and new A-EON hardware
Posted on 25-Apr-2014 15:54:47
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5045
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@megol

>What makes you think this is a new idea, that this somehow can scale linearly and that this is a _good_ idea?

http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/multicore_scaling.jpg
http://www.numberworld.org/y-cruncher/benchmarks/v0.4.1/ushio_graph.jpg

Qoriq example.


But perhaps I'm mistaken and current desktop solutions scale liearly already.

>is a _good_ idea?

Getting 100% boost per extra core is better than no boost?

Last edited by KimmoK on 25-Apr-2014 at 03:55 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 )

[ home ][ about us ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright 2000 - 2017 Amigaworld.net.

Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle