@vox

Linux is free and has memory protection, SMP and 3D support, and has good network connectivity.

There is simply no way for AmigaOS to compete whit it, nor do I see any government being interested in AmigaOS.

Again it falls back on the geek market or and possibly the luxury item market if we can get quality up, we can't compete on price.

Linux sucks as desktop, but someone can build an easy to use desktop on the kernel can do so, just like what happened to Android.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Linux is free and has memory protection, SMP and 3D support, and has good network connectivity.

Quote:

There is simply no way for AmigaOS to compete whit it, nor do I see any government being interested in AmigaOS. Again it falls back on the geek market or and possibly the luxury item market if we can get quality up, we can't compete on price.

In current form, completely agree. But these steps are at least closer now, then they were ever before. With proper funding and development team, could be fixed.

A decent OS with proper office and low price could be a good solution for education
and government, and that is a place where Linux falls nicely.

Even it would mean move to sandboxing current apps in their own small virtual machines

As far as I do remember, SMP and 3D support at least were not Linux features in beginning.

Point is - China, India and several countries have resources for IT development now,
but need some cheap and widespread OS for population. That is great opportunity.

Last edited by vox on 03-Sep-2013 at 05:27 PM.

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@vox

I noticed they were using Ubuntu in the Czech Republic to display the billboards.
(One of displays some information about updating Ubuntu), this just the please where we are going to see more

You need to ask yourself why companies use MS windows.

Here are some reasons out of my head:

* Push deployment of company software through Active Directory.
* Configuration based on Computer group or user name pushed out to client PC's
* Network file shearing, access to documents, access right that filter who has access and who has not.
* Microsoft Office support is also good reason for Microsoft Windows.
* Printer servers and printer driver support, easy to setup manage and deploy to clients.
* They have backup utilities like Backup Exec.
* Lync VOIP software for everything from support and the receptionist, calls can be filtered; group call can be made easy.
* Easy manageable by Remote Desktop, VLC, and programs like that.
* Proxy servers that can filter traffic based on user and groups and computers.
* Firewall.
* Antivirus software.
* Security patches and updates.
* SQL servers.
* Web servers.

Yes there are other software solutions out there, but MS has programs that work for everything that business needs and it all links into Active Directory, so you can manage who has access and who has not.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2013 at 06:40 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2013 at 06:37 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2013 at 06:36 PM.

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@vox

This is way MS is marked leader in the first place, because they were focused on business applications from the start, people wanted to have home office, or company gave away laptops and computers for their employs to use when they were home or travelled. Soon the PC found its way into every ones homes even in the homes of most windows heaters

Apple has been less focused on business applications but more on the OS, and multimedia, my impression is that they where open and friendly to other companies that wanted to support their platform, unlike MS, QT (QuickTime) I think was really important early on, it demonstrated the power of Mac computers over Amiga/Atari computers or chunky over planar graphics if you will.

Linux kind grow out of the need of having a Unix like OS at home, it grow quickly thanks to GNU and academic circles that depended on a Unix like systems, and it started to be popular due to being rock stable compared to Windows98, also developers and people who need to work whit scripts just loves it, geek OS.

So where is AmigaOS, it was created be home OS, for the home computer user, not really business oriented at all, it did have high focus on multimedia, lots of graphics and sound utilities, but beyond this it lacked networking this was really important for any company, Windows3.11 has at least some network support.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2013 at 08:27 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2013 at 07:25 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2013 at 07:03 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Sep-2013 at 07:01 PM.

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@vox

Quote:

Microsoft could easily employ the same strategy easier, but they are simply stupid not to. If XP and Office 2003 costed 5-10$ they could secure their future.

To my understanding that is exacly what they are doing in India. I dont know what the price in India is, but I sort of recall there was once some sort of incident that people bought windows from India since it was much cheaper, and then MS refused to give support to customers who were using Indian version elsewhere in world, since the idea was to offer Windows forthat price only in India and similar countries, for those countries to have equal chance of using Windows.

Thats at least how i recall, but dont really know if that is so anymore, or if i even recall it all wrong.

@vox

Quote:

Point is - China, India and several countries have resources for IT development now, but need some cheap and widespread OS for population.

I case you have not noticed. OS4 isn't cheap or widespread.

@Rose

Quote:

I case you have not noticed. OS4 isn't cheap or widespread.

I ve been discussing the idea of it getting cheap and widespread, if possible.
Surely, it would first need to get advanced at least to OS 4.2 level, localized,
and with at least decent browser, printing, networking and office
but China and India do have a nice IT trust of minds, just overall population
is poor in Western terms.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @vox ... but MS has programs that work for everything that business needs ...

But nevertheless they still have seious issues:

E.g. Outlook.
You can create "distribution lists", e.g. if you want to write a mail to your entire department.

But everyone has to create those lists for themselves - it is (to my best knowlkedge) not possible, that e.g. the administrative assistant sets up an "office directory" and keeps it up-to-date, that everyone of this office can access and use as their "office distribution list".

Or if one part of the office is e.g. located in Cologne and the other part in Dunton. While I can see in the Cologne office (where I work) when someone retires and someone new comes, it is hard to follow the personnel development in the other part of the office.

So it happens quite frequently that eighter some people are missing on the distribution list or you send mails to no-longer existing persons - just because M$ is not willing or not able to fix this for their business customers. Maybe it does not affect small companies, but worldwide operating companies like VW, Ford or Daimler are certainly affected - and they buy hundreds of thousands of Windows lincenses....
I'm waiting for this fix since 1998...

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @vox ... Soon the PC found its way into every ones homes even in the homes of most windows heaters

Although there really are some beasts out there that would easily qualify as heaters and although there are things like this http://www.peterpop.com/solar-homemade.html I guess you meant "windows haters"...

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: ... So where is AmigaOS, it was created be home OS, for the home computer user, not really business oriented at all,

The Amiga OS definitely has its roots in Unix. From 1989 - 1992 I made my CAD Analyst studies and at school we had Unix Cad systems (Medusa & CADDS4x) and so I had to learn Unix.
The Amiga DOS basically was the same as a "Unix light" - it had a very similar syntax (the abbrevations for the Amiga DOS commands was the same as the Unix command - e.g. "copy", abbreviated cp - and th3e Unix command is also "cp" - syntax is the same as on the Amiga. Also many commands had the same options as they had in AmigaDOS.
So I somehow have my doubts regarding the statement "it was created to be a home OS" - why would anyone base a "home OS" on Unix?

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: it did have high focus on multimedia, lots of graphics and sound utilities, but beyond this it lacked networking this was really important for any company, Windows3.11 has at least some network support.

Yeah - but Windows3.1 was first sold during March 1992, while AmigaOS was already on sale in 1985.

And I can still very well remember the bad networking support in MS-DOS up to v5.0 ...

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@Dandy

Quote:

The Amiga OS definitely has its roots in Unix. From 1989 - 1992 I made my CAD Analyst studies and at school we had Unix Cad systems (Medusa & CADDS4x) and so I had to learn Unix. The Amiga DOS basically was the same as a "Unix light" - it had a very similar syntax (the abbrevations for the Amiga DOS commands was the same as the Unix command - e.g. "copy", abbreviated cp - and th3e Unix command is also "cp" - syntax is the same as on the Amiga. Also many commands had the same options as they had in AmigaDOS. So I somehow have my doubts regarding the statement "it was created to be a home OS" - why would anyone base a "home OS" on Unix?

Similar syntax in shell is your argument that AmigaOS is based on Unix?

It isn't, though... it could have been closer to UNIX and probably much more advanced and in a better state today if Commodore chose to finish CAOS on the A1000... But instead they opted for a fast port of TripOS to get on the market sooner. And in 85', AmigaOS was pretty good, but by the early 90s it was slowly falling behind.

_________________

I started this thread as I didn't want to hijack another thread:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37990&forum=33&36 (postings #7 & #8).
Vox and ferrels were "dreaming" of a Chinese involvement in the Amiga platform and I wanted to discuss that topic more in depth with them.

Vox asked me in a PM to bring up the arguments from our PM in this dicussion - here they are:

Their initial statements were:
Quote:

ferrels wrote: It would be interesting if maybe the Chinese picked up on this and developed some PPC driven systems.

Quote:

vox wrote: ... Man, that AmigaOS 4.3 should have better Chinese locale and $5 price tag if we are to win together with Chinese

I replied in a PM to vox:
Quote:

Dandy wrote: Well, a colleague and friend of mine in Australia is Chinese. He is interested in Amiga and already got AmigaForever. He also provided a Chinese catalogue for Xabier Payet's "SnapShoter". Don't know if Xabier already compiled the Chinese version. At one point he mentioned that he is working on a sort of successor of "SnapShoter" (better and more functions) and that this version would get Chinese localisation. But perhaps HaiPing could be persuaded to work on the Chinese localisation of AmigaOS 4.x? It might be a good idea to create a Chinese localisation not just for AmigaOS 4.x, but also for AmigaOS 3.x. Reason is that while China has wealthy people, the majority is not wealthy. So if we want to introduce the Amiga to the (Chinese) masses, I'd say the chances are better with the classic OS. Here they can have free emulators (UAE) or relatively cheap AmigaForever. Also the software base for the classic OS is much wider than for OS4. This way they could become familiar with the classic Amiga concept and so might also develop interest for the next gen Amiga system. I'm afraid the average Chinese won't have the money to buy current Amiga next gen systems. But if they would show growing interest in NextGen Amigas based on their experience with the classic system, the chances that someone in China starts to develop and produce Amiga Next Gen hardware are better. I'm afraid that by starting with advertising expensive Amiga next generation systems in China we would not generate enough momentum to get things really going. What do you think?

And vox answered:
Quote:

vox wrote: Problem is OS 3.x doesnt offer much but gaming, even OS4 is a small arena (in terms of today browsing and productivity) Anything would be nice. Back in 90s China and India were less developed then today.

Now I countered:
Quote:

Dandy wrote: Hmmm - I dare to differ. Please have a look at the software list that is just being compiled on Amiga.org: http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=33816&page=3 (posting #37) From my POV that is a quite impressive list of productive things you could and still can do with an Amiga OS 3.x system aside from gaming - and this list is far from being complete... I never saw the Amiga as a mere gaming system - I approached it from the scientific side...and there was A LOT of scientific and educational software for the classic Amiga platform.

Vox replied:
Quote:

vox wrote: Agreed, I wasn`t clear enough - I ment from modern point of views, some few OS4 apps like Blender or GIMP are surely way more usable then ADPro, Real 3D and DeLuxe Paint, even those were really great packages at the time. Other problem is most of OS 3.x apps (serious ones, not PD titles) are no longer availiable to purchase. 99% of them.

Then I wrote:
Quote:

Dandy wrote: That's exactly the reason why I think we cannot drop OS 3.x when it comes to the question of a Chinese localisation. OS 4.x currently doesn't have enough to offer to create enough interest for enough "common" Chinese people to buy into expensive Amiga NG technique, I believe. Therefore I think it is inevitable to give them access to the classic Amiga system as well, as there was/is enough productivity software to get one interested. Then there's "just" the language barrier... Admittedly the software is a bit "rusty" - but that does not mean it doesn't work anymore. You can still use e.g. a CAD program from the early ninetees today to make a precise drawing. Also the CNC Tool I have still works and can still make executable CNC programs from my 3D-drawings that I can use to produce the designed parts on a suitable CNC machine. Not everything old is bad! Don't under-estimate the classic Amiga system and what you can do with it - even today! (Even NASA used it!) The point I'm trying to make is that while the OS 3.x software may be a bit rusty and mostly not up-to-date, a lot of it is still usable and should be still good enough to spark interest for the Amiga platform. I'm quite confident that once there IS interest, it will also be stretched to the NG Amiga. And THEN it might happen that demand for NG Amiga HW & SW rises on the Chinese market...more and more HW and SW developer might jump on board...more and more HW and SW hit the market...and slowly attract even more users... Who knows. I think it's at least worth to discuss it...

And Vox replied:
Quote:

vox wrote: Arguments are valid, but it would need preinstalled package box, something like AresOne. Please do present the same arguments in the discussion. However, proper path for the future would be: a) Cheap PPC mobo made with Chinese b) Localized OS4 latest version c) Localized OS4 and best OS3 software that can work natively Sticking JUST to OS 3.x software is problematic beacuse of IP of software and localization ... sadly

Last edited by Dandy on 04-Sep-2013 at 01:46 PM.

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Quote:

A decent OS with proper office and low price could be a good solution for education and government, and that is a place where Linux falls nicely.

How is Linux failing to meet these requirements ?
It's not even low price, it's free. You want them to consider using something that's been dead for 15 years, doesn't support natively UTF8, has no modern app. And not only you want them to pay for it, but also to found its development ?

Seriously... There's not a single reason anyone would chose it over Linux.

PS: did I mention Linux (and all its apps) was already running on x86/64 and ARM (in addition to PPC) while Amiga does not ?

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@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote: Quote: A decent OS with proper office and low price could be a good solution for education and government, and that is a place where Linux falls nicely. How is Linux failing to meet these requirements ? It's not even low price, it's free. You want them to consider using something that's been dead for 15 years, doesn't support natively UTF8, has no modern app. And not only you want them to pay for it, but also to found its development ? Seriously... There's not a single reason anyone would chose it over Linux. PS: did I mention Linux (and all its apps) was already running on x86/64 and ARM (in addition to PPC) while Amiga does not ?

Leo - we're perfectly aware of that.
But what is so bad about having ideas/dreams/fantasies/visions/... ?
This is one of those "What if"-discussions...don't take it too serious...most likely it all will stay a nice dream anyway...

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@Belxjander
Quote:

Japanese has the additional complication of *3* different character sets in active usage. Kanji - inherited Chinese Glyphs, Hiragana (original Japanese Script for Women currently used by everyone and learned first, Katakana (originally Japanese "mens" writing form but currently used for import words)

Some very off-topic footnotes on a very informed piece of writing (but happens to be in my own area of expertise):
Not all kanji are inherited from Chinese. Some are Japanese inventions, and have even been "inherited" from Japanese by Chinese.

I'm guessing that the "complication" is that if you type "a" for example you have to go to the extra step of specifying that you want kanji or katakana instead of hiragana?
Quote:

The only "composition" character set I am aware of is the phonetic Korean "Hangul" script, every symbol in Korean is composed from 3 elements to make each sound. so you are typing 3 english qwerty letters to produce a singular Hangul glyph.

The Korean symbols run from one to at least five elements each. All except the one-unit guy (say-sios) represent syllables.
Quote:

Chinese and Japanese "Hanzi/Kanji" come from pictoral representation so are regarded as "pictographic" glyphs, where Korean is a "phonetic" or composite sound glyph arrangement.

That "pictograph" business is a bit of a myth. How do you draw a picture for "ordinary"? How much ink would it take to draw a picture for the character for 1,000?

Last edited by kilaueabart on 13-Sep-2013 at 01:33 AM.

>Agreement with Chineese and Indian gouverments to fund localization of OS

For India, a country file should be all that is required, I could probably make a suitable one in an hour or two. Being an English-speaking country, there is no need for string translation.

@vox

Quote:

- Agreement with Chineese and Indian gouverments to fund localization of OS and several free apps

I highly doubt the Chinese government would give money to a western company, being it a giant like Microsoft/Apple or a small team like Hyperion or anyone else ...especially if they can't control the sources and what happens under the hood.
In fact IIRC i've read somewhere that there are a couple of government endorsed *nix distros.

Last edited by Nibunnoichi on 13-Sep-2013 at 07:53 AM.

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@thread

I've enjoyed a very interesting and informed read, respect!

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@Nibunnoichi

Quote:

Nibunnoichi wrote: @vox Quote: - Agreement with Chineese and Indian gouverments to fund localization of OS and several free apps I highly doubt the Chinese government would give money to a western company, being it a giant like Microsoft/Apple or a small team like Hyperion or anyone else ...especially if they can't control the sources and what happens under the hood. In fact IIRC i've read somewhere that there are a couple of government endorsed *nix distros.

Red Flag Linux has been around over 10 years. Ministry of Information Industry is major share holder. Few years back there were lot of articles how they pushed it to be mandatory on internet cafes if you are not running legit copies of commerical OS...

@kilaueabart

The "pictograph" business is related to the "Learning Japanese as a Second Language" usage of the "Remembering the Kanji" series for initial Kanji memorization as a techique.
Not all of the Kanji/Hanzi can be pictoral but what is a common "symbolic item" that can be drawn for the given idea?... that seems to be the working concept here.

Maybe a better term is "Ideograph" ? or just refer to everything as the font term "Glyph" ?

This is your area of expertise? ... I am still feeling "ill informed" about the subject mostly having picked up random details without any consistency.

Yes the "complication" is the "select your script and which Kanji in multiple-options case.
( the "Romaji" of Kanji being one of 14 selections presented for that one word alone IIRC )

Thank you for correcting me about the 1-5 symbols with regards Korean, I was only aware of three parts to symbols and may have mis-understood that to being 3 keyboard taps to select the parts which then provides a composite key for the result Hangul glyph.

When is your schedule open for discussing AmigaOS IME options as I have a couple of ideas for binding to the OS but would prefer to work on proper accuracy first.

How much for your time to answer some questions? Do you have time in your schedule?
Would you be willing to discuss the finer points of an IME design with me as I am somewhat looking at a basic "brute force" concept right now and feel I am missing something.

Thank you for the footnotes and corrections.

@Belxjander

I think the way to go here is to make Exchange commodity that can intercept the input.device, it can then take the input and translate it, before sending it off to Window, UserPort.

http://wiki.amigaos.net/index.php/Commodities_Exchange_Library

So the problem here is really the applications that expects ASCII, keycode events, what application needs is extended keycode event, I have not checked the details , if the UserPort / struct Message its already 32bit compliant or if its 8bit.

(It can also be sorted by adding a new massage class.).

Next the keycode has to be supported by rest of the system.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 16-Sep-2013 at 02:21 AM.
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Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Sep-2013 at 03:50 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Sep-2013 at 03:48 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Sep-2013 at 03:45 PM.

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