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OlafS25 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 17:51:55
#321 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@michalsc

thanx

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EDanaII 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 17:56:02
#322 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Dec-2011
Posts: 87
From: Unknown

Quote:
More CPUs are used internally by ARIX, the API is not provided yet. It's not an SMP design, rather similar to AMP. Currently, IO disk operations are scheduled over all CPUs available. The design is still subject of change.


And here I'm guessing the API is simply AROS, with (probably) some minor modifications. I'm also guessing that it's subject to change when there's more confidence as to which direction it can be pushed. I definitely like the implications of this. :)

Ed.

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michalsc 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 18:00:42
#323 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 377
From: Germany

@EDanaII

Quote:
And here I'm guessing the API is simply AROS, with (probably) some minor modifications.


Yes, the API is AROS. You can in principle run all AROS software on ARIX.

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OlafS25 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 18:01:30
#324 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@michalsc

how are you progressing with "silly SMP"? Are these the first results?

Last edited by OlafS25 on 19-Nov-2013 at 06:02 PM.

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michalsc 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 18:04:50
#325 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 377
From: Germany

@OlafS25

Quote:
how are you progressing with "silly SMP"? Are these the first results?


I can't tell anything new. Last months my work at the university is eating nearly all the time I have. So, no progress with silly SMP on my side.

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EDanaII 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 18:10:35
#326 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Dec-2011
Posts: 87
From: Unknown

Quote:
Yes, the API is AROS. You can in principle run all AROS software on ARIX.


So, this is pretty much what I suggested it would be when I first entered this thread: a proof of concept. I.e. Let's get AROS running on the Linux kernel.

That said, I don't think this is a bad thing. Quite the contrary, I welcome it because I do thing it will push AROS in the direction I think it needs to go. Congrats, Michal (and everyone else involved). I can't wait to see how well it performs when it's ready for testing.

Ed.

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OlafS25 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 18:10:49
#327 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@michalsc

thanx for infos. From the technical side I think I understand it a little better now. There are others questions open like how will be the commercial model, how will be the relation to AROS (Opensource) and so on.

One question I still have, the new "double" kernel is closed source and/or can be used by all other distributions like Icaros Desktop or AspireOS and so on. Or is it exclusiv for Arix OS?

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OlafS25 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 18:12:33
#328 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@EDanaII

+1

Using Linux for driver support is indeed a big step in the right direction We are now almost in 2013

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pavlor 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 18:28:17
#329 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
Using Linux for driver support is indeed a big step in the right direction


Exactly, but It may be too much Linux for some people. Most important is not to splinter AROS community.

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 18:33:21
#330 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1770
From: Unknown

@Michal
Ehmm who will solve this bug in AROS hosted ?

https://sourceforge.net/p/aros/bugs/463/

And to stay topic, first question is on topic too... ehh what happens with AROS in general if all AAA-developers are working on ARIX? Are you allowed to work on other non-/commercial AROS distros too or will you and others involved focus only on ARIX foundation? Or even worse are forced to reject working for other similar projects...

EDIT:
I welcome the initiative absolutely but i am a tiny bit concerned.

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 19-Nov-2013 at 06:36 PM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 19-Nov-2013 at 06:35 PM.

_________________
AROS Broadway - AEROS - Aminux - AmiCloud - indieGO! Appstore - AmiWallet - VAN lossless video codec - AMC Amiga media Center -KrypUnite - LibertyNet - MinX - amigaNX

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EDanaII 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 18:34:33
#331 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Dec-2011
Posts: 87
From: Unknown

@ OlafS25

Quote:
One question I still have, the new "double" kernel is closed source and/or can be used by all other distributions like Icaros Desktop or AspireOS and so on. Or is it exclusiv for Arix OS?


Yet another SWAG on my part but... in order for any commercial venture to be successful, they must provide something that their customers cannot get on their own. As it's this double-kernel that brings us both a wider range of drivers yet allows us to keep Amiga-like behaviors, this is the keystone of their "value add." So, my guess would be: no. This will remain proprietary.


@ pavlor

AROS, first and foremost is a _research_ OS and having largely achieved that goal, is effectively stagnant/dead. If Arix is succesfull, it should for all intents and purposes make AROS moot. Again, I don't think this is a bad thing, unless some just like being stuck in the past. :)

Two cents.

Ed.

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Mazze 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 19:40:15
#332 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 3-Aug-2013
Posts: 42
From: Unknown

@michalsc

Quote:

michalsc wrote:
@EDanaII

Quote:
And here I'm guessing the API is simply AROS, with (probably) some minor modifications.


Yes, the API is AROS. You can in principle run all AROS software on ARIX.


Without recompiling?

_________________
AROS - Make code not war

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michalsc 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 19:46:35
#333 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 377
From: Germany

@Mazze

Quote:
Without recompiling?


Yes, without recompiling.

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Arko 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 20:22:27
#334 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@michalsc

Please fill out this form:

The API is compatible to this type of AROS

[_] x86 ABI_v0
[_] x86 ABI_V1
[_] x86_64 (ABI_V?)

Graphic subsystem provides an interface to:

[_] 3D via GPU
[_] 3D via software using AMP
[_] 3D is currently panned but not included
[_] 3D will be planned for a future release

[_] 2D acceleration on GUI via GPU
[_] 2D acceleration via software using AMP
[_] 2D is currently panned but not included
[_] 2D will be planned for a future release

[_] video acceleration via overlay or via shader of the GPU
[_] video acceleration via software using AMP
[_] video acceleration panned but not included
[_] video acceleration will be planned for a future release

Will the ARIX system include some kind of x68 emulation / compatibility?

[_] No, but users are free to use UAE JUAE with AOS3.9 or AROS 68k
[_] There is a version of JUAE with AROS 68k included.
[_] We are working on a next generation super 68k JIT using secret technologies that will make Rosetta look like a millstone

Is there something special about the license for ARIX

[_] Binary will be free
[_] Binary commercial
[_] Free demo version
[_] Open Source
[_] not decided yet.

Some special software goodies in the first ARIX version like:

- 3D Shooter, with 3D monitor support
- Video player with encoder, decoder and video editing software
- 3D Renderer that will make Blender look like MS-Paint
- advanced port of MS-Office 2015
- .............................................


---------------------

Every answer is welcome.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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EDanaII 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 20:22:33
#335 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Dec-2011
Posts: 87
From: Unknown

Hmmm.... apparently, Bernd Meyers -- I'm assuming it's him and not someone spoofing him -- on Moobunny describes the above diagram as typical of an Amithlon system. This suggests possible m68k compatibility. Another possible "value add" if true. Once again, watching with interest to see what finally comes of this.

Last edited by EDanaII on 19-Nov-2013 at 08:24 PM.

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Mazze 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 21:09:57
#336 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 3-Aug-2013
Posts: 42
From: Unknown

@Arko
Quote:


Some special software goodies in the first ARIX version like:

- 3D Shooter, with 3D monitor support
- Video player with encoder, decoder and video editing software
- 3D Renderer that will make Blender look like MS-Paint
- advanced port of MS-Office 2015


Two more weeks. Spammy has already bought the book "C for Dammies"

_________________
AROS - Make code not war

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NomadOfNorad 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 21:27:47
#337 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Jun-2003
Posts: 746
From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA, Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy

Well, there was a thing I saw in a video about Aeros, that the j-uae on it had a function where you could change one checkbox and.... all the emulated 68k Amiga stuff would launch on the regular desktop like any other program, uncheck that box and it would go back to having UAE on its own dedicated screen. Will that work out of the box on Arix, too? That's one of the main features I want.

_________________
"I love peacenicks, they're so easy to conquer." --Ivan J Ironfist, the Dictator

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Aslak3 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 21:31:57
#338 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2012
Posts: 268
From: Southampton, UK

@CritAnime's diagram....

So, deciphering the diagram of fun....

ARIX kernel is a Linux userland "shim" which exposes (or provides if you prefer) the AROS/Amiga API and is implemented as a Linux shared library and/or process which talks, presumably through the Linux C library, through to Linux device drivers, memory allocation routines, etc. Presumably this process, which is the host for the Amiga process runs with root privs.

Device drivers including:

Linux block devices. Something in the "Arix kernel" implements an Amiga-Ish filesystem and translates the calls into Linux block device IO. Actually this bit is quite simple since native AROS has to do this, it just implements the lower level (SATA, IDE etc) as well which ARIX no longer needs.

Network. Presumably another translation layer which the Amiga socket API (the non BSD bits) into some equivalent getsockopt() etc calls. Or is the AROS TCP/IP stack still used and the Linux kernel driver relegated to dealing with raw frames?

USB stack. From the diagram we can assume that you are wrapping an Amiga API into libusb calls. Though being only vaguely famililar with both this is a blantant guess. ;) In anycase, wouldn't it make sense to at least use Linux for the mass-storage side of USB, since you are already exposing block devices through to ARIX?

Audio. Presumably a AHI frontend with an ALSA-lib backend.

Graphics. This could be interesting. graphics.library->Linux FB converter? Not that I know much about modern graphics subsystems on any OS.

Native drivers.... This is unexpected. If ARIX doesn't include any Linux kernel components (I suspect it does not), then I'm not sure what this means. With uid=0 of course your ARIX kernel (word used somewhat reluctantly) can do anything, albeit inefficiently, so I guess you could bang on the hardware if you had to.

I'm probably quite far off in all of this, but it's fun figuring it out anyway.

In any case, it sounds fun. A shame my biggest reason to move away for "AmigaOS" (memory protection) cannot be addressed here, but I wish the project well. I look forward to trying it out and learning more about the implementation.

_________________
Blog

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cdimauro 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 22:06:29
#339 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

Quote:

Arko wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

There's no difference, in fact.



This makes me think about intelligence in a fresh loaf of bread again.

In my experience who starts to talk about the intelligence in a discussion either lack it and/or is unable to sustain his thesis.

Quote:
Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

A Linux distro is an o.s. which uses Linux as the kernel.

The userland and/or the window manager has no relevance in this.



Wikipedia says:

Quote:

A Linux distribution (often called distro for short) is an operating system built on top of the Linux kernel and often around a package management system. A Linux distribution is synonymous with GNU/Linux,

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_distribution

Wikipedia is not a reliable source of knowledge. Anyway, what I said before is still perfectly valid even taking Wikipedia as a reference.

"A Linux distribution (often called distro for short) is an operating system built on top of the Linux kernel"

That was what I said in my previous message.

" and often around a package management system."

"often" doesn't mean always.

"A Linux distribution is synonymous with GNU/Linux,"

That's totally unrelated to the Linux distribution definition. We know that Linus added the GNU toolchain to his kernel in order to obtain a usable o.s., but that doesn't mean that a Linux-based o.s. is synonymous of GNU/Linux.

In fact, taking a look at this: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/what-is-linux you have an explanation of all the terms: from the kernel to the distribution.

The Linux kernel doesn't need any explanation.

For the Linux o.s.: "Like the kernel, the Linux operating system is also modular. Developers can pick and choose the operating tools to provide users and developers with a new flavor of Linux designed to meet specific tasks.".

For the Linux distro: "This is the highest layer of the Linux operating system: the container for all of the aforementioned layers. A distribution's makers have decided which kernel, operating system tools, environments, and applications to include and ship to users."

Quote:
So this "Linux Kernel -> AROaS" is not a Linux distro

By definition, it is. See above.

Quote:
Otherwise this "ExecSG -> AmigaOS" should never be called AmigaOS

It doesn't matter. Linux as o.s. and distro is defined as above. Other o.s.es follow their own definitions.

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michalsc 
Re: Arix Foundation?
Posted on 19-Nov-2013 22:13:12
#340 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 377
From: Germany

@Aslak3

Quote:
So, deciphering the diagram of fun....


Hey, not bad!

Quote:
ARIX kernel is a Linux userland "shim" which exposes (or provides if you prefer) the AROS/Amiga API and is implemented as a Linux shared library and/or process


A process, yes :)

Quote:
talks, presumably through the Linux C library


Indeed, the libc is one of very few linux components available on the tiny ramdisk (invisible and unaccessible for ARIX anyway). Actually, due to the size of libc and small amount of functions used by ARIX I was going to replace it with a smaller library which provides an interface to kernel syscalls. See it as a CPU-agnostic interface to the old "int $0x80" or its equivalent.

Quote:
Linux device drivers,


Yes, where necessary.

Quote:
memory allocation routines


Indeed. The TLSF allocator used in ARIX requests blocks of memory from linux kernel and adds them to the pool. All other memory management is done on ARIX side. I haven't noticed any significant performance loss due to this "auto growth" feature.

Quote:
Presumably this process, which is the host for the Amiga process runs with root privs.


very correct.

Quote:
Linux block devices. Something in the "Arix kernel" implements an Amiga-Ish filesystem and translates the calls into Linux block device IO.


Pretty correct. This gives us universal IO layer - some of you who tried native AROS surely noticed how vendor-fragile the IDE/SATA drivers are. This is due to all the vendor-specific (and sometimes product specific) "quirks" in the driver code which linux kernel implements already and native AROS doesn't. Plus, we can use the caching mechanism of linux's IO layer. But don't worry, the caches are flushed automatically after certain period of IO inactivity.


Quote:
Network. Presumably another translation layer which the Amiga socket API (the non BSD bits) into some equivalent getsockopt() etc calls. Or is the AROS TCP/IP stack still used and the Linux kernel driver relegated to dealing with raw frames?


Work in Progress - sorry for disappointment...

Quote:
USB stack. From the diagram we can assume that you are wrapping an Amiga API into libusb calls. Though being only vaguely famililar with both this is a blantant guess. ;) In anycase, wouldn't it make sense to at least use Linux for the mass-storage side of USB, since you are already exposing block devices through to ARIX?


Input devices are used that way already, block devices can be used the same way. Rest is still Work in Progress - so again sorry for disappointment...

Quote:
Audio. Presumably a AHI frontend with an ALSA-lib backend.


Yep.

Quote:
Graphics. This could be interesting. graphics.library->Linux FB converter?


Indeed. This is a part which needs to be worked on in nearest future. Indeed Linux FB is used right now. In future 3D will be provided (still without X11 - even if we would like to use X11, but we don't, there is no place for it on the initrd image).



Quote:
Native drivers.... This is unexpected. If ARIX doesn't include any Linux kernel components (I suspect it does not), then I'm not sure what this means.


ARIX PCI driver (AKA pci.hidd known from AROS) allows you to enumerate PCI devices and map their resources (memory or MMIO) to ARIX address space. The only missing things to implement a HW driver running entirely on ARIX side is to route IRQs from kernel to ARIX kernel. This is being worked on and I see at least two ways of doing that.

Other side is of course ARIX memory - you need to translate virtual addresses to physical address, if the pointer is to be given to the PCI device. This can be done using the well known CachePreDMA and CachePostDMA calls from exec.library.

I hope I didn't disappoint you with my answers... ;)

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