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      /  Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
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QuBe 
Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 3:54:05
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Dec-2006
Posts: 1062
From: Dunes of Uridia

Dear Amigans,

Many times have there been discussions regarding what Amiga could have been if its "life" had not been so unceremoniously curtailed by bad corporate decision making.

We all saw it thrive in areas of multi-media thanks to its powerful custom chipset design and lite multi-tasking OS - what a joy... and still today it thrives as a very niche computer hobby, with enthusiast injecting its body with every greater doses of morphine to keep it alive.

We can agree - one of the areas where Amiga thrived was in the video and multi-media space, a "must have" system in all video and television production studios.

Many people made the decision to purchase it based on its "raw" multi-media power and what it could do (at the time). It was reliable and it produced the results as required. Even NASA used Amiga's to control Shuttle launch sequences. Incredible achievement.

Looking around, and thinking about where "next gen" Amiga's could maybe play a role in this new world of ours, I came across the "Bitcoin" revolution that is quietly happening around us.

"Litecoin" has also recently joined the fray, and apparently easier to mine than Bitcoin. In-fact, a Litecoin client could feasibly mine Litecoin blocks from an Amiga X1000 if it existed, as its hardware requirements are lower to get results.

For those who are new to crypto currencies, here are some resources...

http://bitcoin.org/en/
https://litecoin.org/
https://blockchain.info/
https://coinfloor.co.uk/
https://www.mtgox.com/

Is it worth considering this as a community.

What if a robust application set of mining clients for Bitcoin and Litecoin were produced for Amiga computers.

Next generation Amiga's may be easier to rig for high computational mathematics with the addition of accelerated graphics cards or a dedicated X1000 Xena card specifically produced for crypto currency mining.

It would be the next wave... instead of having a Toaster plugged into an Amiga, we have a BitToaster plugged in, optimised for mining crypto currencies.

The Amiga computer could be marketed as a computer or a crypto currency miner etc, or both. It suddenly gives the world an alternative box if one should exist.

What would be great to see is;

* Bitcoin / Litecoin clients for Amiga computers (Bounty Anyone?)
* Amiga retailers accepting Bitcoins (including Amiga Apps store)
* Dedicated Bitcoin mining hardware - in the form of a card using the Xena slot (if possible)

Just some thoughts on what Amiga could be famous for again, if not for Video Toaster, than maybe Bittoaster

Am I dream'n...

Q!

"i am home"

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fishy_fis 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 4:05:25
#2 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1732
From: Australia

@QuBe

As is often the case while trying to find a niche the problem is that it can be done cheaper, and better on more mainstream systems / hardware.

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Hondo 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 5:12:09
#3 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1340
From: Denmark

@QuBe

I think it's a really good idea which is well worth exploring. Especially if Xena can come in and play a role here.

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Rob 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 6:14:16
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5577
From: S.Wales

@QuBe

Sounds like pyramid scheme and you'd using an awful lot of CPU power to rip off the poor suckers who put their real money into Bitcoin or similar pyramids.

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Rose 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 6:34:38
#5 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 525
From: Unknown

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote:
@QuBe

Sounds like pyramid scheme and you'd using an awful lot of CPU power to rip off the poor suckers who put their real money into Bitcoin or similar pyramids.


This. Checked numbers for Litecoin... If you run 2 x AMD HD7970's 24/7 dedicated to mine litecoin you will get whopping $2/day... And it's been over year or so when you could break even for electricity bill with GPU mining. CPU mining haven't been worth of mention for ages...

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billt 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 7:10:24
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3023
From: Maryland, USA

@QuBe

Tonight I read about some guy who bought about US$27 worth of bitcoin a few years ago and now that has turned into 3/4 of a million$. Cool. But I think that kind of growth in bitcoin is probably over. And for those that are running bitcoin searcher programs to make money are doing it on very specialized ASIC (it bitcoin custom chip) hardware now.

But I'm all for fun things to run in the background. I used to run dnetc, and at some point my PC ran a protein folder for cancer people somewhere. I wish I'd been more curious a few years ago, when I did get curious I set up a wallet but never did a searcher tool, so I'm empty and not actually trying...

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QuBe 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 8:42:54
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Dec-2006
Posts: 1062
From: Dunes of Uridia

@fishy_fis

That is true, but it depends if the Amiga package brings any additional value add. Maybe its simply the case that for anything to do with number crunching one would just automatically look at x86.

Maybe it has to be marketed in a way that captures the public's imagination. One could always look at it from multiple angles and think about the possibilities.

I think porting across a Bitcoin or Litecoin client for the Amiga would be a great step in giving the machine additional relevance amongst the myriad of computing solutions out there.

Now that I come to think about it, you can hire server computational power in the cloud if you want to mine Bitcoin, I just found one such service whilst browsing which means you would not need to necessary purchase a specialised Amiga with a Bittoaster plugged in.

I guess it depends on the potential users and what would suit best.

Q!

"i am home"

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QuBe 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 8:51:17
#8 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Dec-2006
Posts: 1062
From: Dunes of Uridia

@billt

I honestly believe Bitcoin and Litecoin will grow. I heard last night the first serious hedge fund may be moving into Bitcoin soon, and this could catapult the value to about $1000 dollars per Bitcoin.

You have a situation whereby the US Anglo financial world we live is being severely challenged, especially after the financial crisis which proves to me that "legal" fraud is a cancer permeating across all our lives. We have no control over the future of the FIAT currencies we have in our packet, how much value they are losing and the fact that the US FED can dictate to everyone whether your quality of life and overall wealth will be gradually crushed, as has been the case now for most of the "middle classes"

With "assets" like Bitcoin, whereby the currency cannot be printed out of existence and is limited in quantity like Gold, I believe the sky is the limit if its integrity is not breached.

China and Russia are supportive of Bitcoin. Kenya is moving to connect Bitcoin transactions to their traditional payment systems serving the public, and lastly, a Canadian company has begun shipping their Bitcoin ATM's (can't remember the name of the company at the moment).

I fear for the money I have in my account, how it is being devalued on a daily basis, and when a bank in crisis, may simply seize the account and hold the deposits to save its ass...

With Bitcoin or Litecoin - none of this would occur...

Q!

"i am home"

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Frags 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 10:35:00
#9 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2004
Posts: 971
From: East-Midlands (Nottingham) UK

It`s pointless, even quad-sli rigs or EC2 instances are useless for mining now

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QuBe 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 13:05:21
#10 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Dec-2006
Posts: 1062
From: Dunes of Uridia

@Frags

Don't know, when viewing blocks being processed on Blockchain it seems someone is coining it, pun intended... If these people are using a super computer than I guess yes, but I think with a modest mining box you can get some decent results, surely?

Q!

"i am home"

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Frags 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 13:25:44
#11 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2004
Posts: 971
From: East-Midlands (Nottingham) UK

@QuBe

Not really, since the ASICs appeared making money is basically a who-can-get-hold-of-one-first affair. Last time I checked GPU rigs were barely breaking even and that was ages ago unfortunately

Probably better to wait for the next crash and buy some then wait for the rebound.

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Rose 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 13:38:39
#12 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 525
From: Unknown

@Frags

Quote:

Frags wrote:
@QuBe

Not really, since the ASICs appeared making money is basically a who-can-get-hold-of-one-first affair. Last time I checked GPU rigs were barely breaking even and that was ages ago unfortunately

Probably better to wait for the next crash and buy some then wait for the rebound.


You can't get even close to break even with GPU's anymore. Example calculation of 2 x HD7970 rig with average US electricity price.

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Crumb 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 13:51:28
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2208
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@QuBe

bad idea as cpu mining is dead. gpu mining is not so dead but it's not possible without good drivers for the latest gpus. FPGA mining is the way to go. Xena will probably be useless

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Belxjander 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 14:27:42
#14 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

@QuBe

BitCoin-QT the base reference client is currently dependent on a newer boost libs than on os4depot.net (aminet.net? others?) and also requires at least QT libs 4.7 along with a couple of other "missing" dependency libraries.

Alternate clients are "WebWallet"s using various "Exchange" sites...

MtGox, BitStamp, BTC-E, Kraken, CoinBase ... and the list continues...

Most of these actually require a "google authenticator" two-factor authenticator application as well (I have set this up for my own accounts using the above and other exchanges)

I also currently have some BitCoin of my own (on my own smartphone)

The reference client above will require "autotools" or a pre-autotool-ed build tree setup to complete the port with some sections actually compiling on AOS4 "out of the box" (I found the boost dependency is somewhat of a buzzkill).

I lack enough comprehension of C++ beyond the C basics to really do anything with that codebase myself (and I am currently dealing with other projects so won't take that on as well)

As for "mining" BitCoin and LiteCoin ...

For "BTC"(XBT on www.xe.com for currency comparison) there is no point in CPU or GPU mining...
the sam440, sam460 and X1000 have potential to perform mining if a SHA256() function can be added to the FPGA/Xena chips onboard to take a random block of memory and write the result into a string buffer either on-chip or as a given memory location.

LiteCoin *may* be more open and accessible for the AmigaOS family in general.

AROS is the one member of the family where the code would not need LE/BE conversion due to running directly on x86 hardware.

The BitCoin protocol is written with Little-Endian numbers through and through.

I also currently leave the #BitCoin, #BitCoin-Dev, #BitCoin-PriceTalk and a couple of other channels open when I am on IRC as well.

One thing I have considered is re-use of the older "Aweb" source tree for reading/writing HTML GET/POST requests to the various Exchanges and having a local "wallet"(RIPEMD160 + SHA256 along with ECDSA are a minimum set of Crypto-Functions needed that I am aware of)

An additional consideration is the current (30th October 2013) blockchain where transactions are recorded and shared through the network is at least a minimum of 12GigaBytes... or 3x 4GB DVDs in sequential data...if you wish to have a complete reference copy of this.

I think that consideration alone would require breaking it up or a 100% custom "BlockChainFileSystem" implimentation on the 68K "Classic" AmigaOS family membership.

AmigaOSv4, MorphOS and AROS would be the only 3 member branches of the family that I am aware of even potentially capable of dealing with that amount of data...

A major point of note is that the Blockchain is 12GB *currently* and that is for a complete download... over the lifetime of the blockchain existing...it may be that we need to set aside a 500GB or 1TB drive as a single partition just for that if you really want to get serious about it.

If any developer IS willing to take this on...I'd be willing to "test" the client software with my own money... the only consideration would be that any "new" client would be as open and available as source as any of the others (currently all of the clients I am aware of are open sourced so this would be a dealbreaker for any of the closed source OS distributions to include it... it would be mandatory as 3rd party additional)

There is a whole lot more detail here and how far into wonderland will we follow the white rabbit down the hole?

it is also possible for us to generate our own client and blockchain but that would be limited to only those interested in it...

I'm also willing to put up 0.1BTC of my own towards a bounty for the developer who gets this done...

P.S. I have discussed with the official bitcoin-qt devs how feasible an AmigaOS client would be...
They hve tried to deal with the "endianness" issues but the work was never completed...
Currently NONE of the bitcoin-qt reference variations available work on BE hardware.

and the only BE capable library I am aware of runs entirely in Java for Android ...

Please see the bitcoin and litecoin wikis for the details...

Belxjander

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Frags 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 14:33:41
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2004
Posts: 971
From: East-Midlands (Nottingham) UK

Of course, another option is to write a trading platform app for performing fast arbitrage and the like; I think the exchanges have APIs you can use for trading.

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Fraggle

- insert profound text here -

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A1200 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 15:21:06
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 2875
From: Westhall, UK

Can't see any Amiga making a dent in CPU intensive things like this. All you will do is lower the lifespan of this very expensive HW running at 100% all the time. I would think there would be a better niche for the Amiga, but in the absence of a better idea, any thought is a start.

_________________
Amiga A1200, 3.1 ROMs, Blizzard 1220/4 with FPU and 8MB RAM, 4GB KingSpec DoM SSD, Workbench 3.1

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Belxjander 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 15:54:04
#17 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

@A1200

Which is specifically why any "CPU intensive" routines would need to be performed by the FPGA or Xena chips instead (the X1000 is in the unique position of being able to dedicate the 2nd core to a fixed resources process outside the normal exec scope...)

That also brings up an odd situation... all the machines with *multiple* processors...

Use the faster processor for the OS and the slower processor for dedicated tasks with pre-allocated resources?

Would that even work ?

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ferrels 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 16:13:49
#18 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 686
From: Arizona

@Belxjander

There is absolutely nothing in the world of Amigas that makes them (old or new) suitable to mine Bitcoins. Crypto-currencies such as bitcoins require CPU and GPU resources that aren't available on NG Amigas and certainly not in an FPGA as you're advocating. The most successful bitcoin miners use high-end nVidia GPUs and the latest Intel processors. And even with these resources it can take them days or even weeks to generate a single coin because the math is so complex. And in most cases the profits are offset by the cost of the electricity that was "wasted" in creating the coin in the first place.

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Fransexy 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 16:53:50
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2316
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@ferrels

Quote:
The most successful bitcoin miners use high-end nVidia GPUs


Simply not true. Radeon cards are much more powerful than Nvidia ones for mining.
You can check it here

Anyway nowadays ASIC chips are the only profitable way of mining

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Make Amiga Great Again

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Belxjander 
Re: Amiga and the Bitcoin Revolution?
Posted on 30-Oct-2013 16:58:11
#20 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

@ferrels

Then my understanding of hearing gpu mining becoming extremely marginalized by FPGA and ASIC devices (please refer to the VHDL code sections of bfg-miner...)

Luke-Jr (author: bfg-miner) was part of the conversation in #bitcoin-tech (prior to that channel dissolving) and in the #bitcoin & #bitcoin-dev channels on freenode along with gmaxwell (one of many authors: bitcoin-qt) jgarzik (bitcoin-qt, picocoin, Bitcoin Foundation)

I'm only advocating my own opinion...and that the NG Amiga systems with FPGA and Xena processors have a *potential* chance of being usable for that...

As for "other systems" the "high end ATI RadeonHD" chips are more recommended than the High end nVidia/Intel combination you present (please refer the bitcoin wiki for more information and details on exactly why this is...)

@All

Hans de Ruiter can possibly comment without going into detail with regards ATI Radeon Shaders and how many parallel operations that they can perform compared to a higher clock and lower number of shader cores in the nvidia chips.

For bitcoin mining the more blocks you can parallel process the better your chances...
it does not matter how fast the machine itself is if the hardware subsystem dedicated to bitcoin processing can perform more operations in parallel it has a higher chance of succesfully "mining" any given bitcoin "block" to be appended to the blockchain than a faster faster system with less channels for throughput...

the information is public, how many shaders is the question...
more shaders == win for this application.

and ATI cards provide the higher number of shaders (ATI RadeoHD 7970 CrossFire Quad setups exist and are used for this)

as for the CPU choices... CPU based mining has been dead a long time so that has become a moot point. the "everyone uses CPU X" fight is wasting effort after everyone has packed up and left already as an already proven falsehood. (ARM is also being used, re: "BitFury" and family mining hardware [USB dongle for mining...])
Some miners are attaching ASIC devices to Raspberry Pi's (comparable to the sam440, no?)
do I need to ask for a quote to that effect?

Go to freenode IRC #bitcoin and read the wiki ... yes Intel/nVidia as a combination is fast...
but the AMD/ATI combination or Intel/ATI whee ATI brand radeon's (AMD owning ATI...)have the higher shader count... see above.

[BTC price, MtGox = $212.65 USD or 20388.55 Yen, 01:40am Japanese Time ]
0.1 BTC is now approximately $21.26USD...

I'm still willing to put that towards a generic Crypto-Currencies "Wallet" Application that is developed open source... trading and mining can and are run seperately so no argument if they are missing or developed later...

Anyone going to bounty this up?... first target would be blockchain retrieval & storage, second target would be wallet generation and management, third target being transactions (send/recv) and blockchain validation.

Gettuing a working wallet is a definite first application, mining and trading applications have thier own quirks...

Who knows cryptography algorithms well enough to try?

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