i am thinking that now when wee are closing in on jit suport. i think we could benefit from a hole new uae. uptodate code. if there was put up an bounty, would you suport it then ?

@retro

I am a bit naive on "JIT". Please explain how it would benefit UAE?

What does it mean for the speed and execution of the OS and Classic software. Thanks...

Q!

"I am home"

@QuBe

as i understand it,its not just the jit thing that makes things speed op.a clean code should could optimize things. but i am not surei cant code but.

@QuBe

Quote:

I am a bit naive on "JIT". Please explain how it would benefit UAE?

JIT makes CPU emulation faster (10 times in case of JIT in WinUAE, current PowerPC JIT in E-UAE is slower).


However, there is still space for improvements. Eg. old UAE for DOS works good even on Pentium I class hardware (OCS/ECS emulation only).

@pavlor

Quote:

(OCS/ECS emulation only).

So it's not doing anywhere near as much work. So it's faster. The detailed and more accurate the emulation, the slower the virtual machine will be. A "new port" (of what WinUAE?) may well be more accurate, but there little reason to believe it will significantly faster.

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BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

@broadblues

Quote:

So it's not doing anywhere near as much work. So it's faster.

Well, full A500 emulation with synchronised sound is great work for 100 MHz Pentium. Try the same with current E-UAE on higher clocked 603e...

Considering the current shortage of Amiga programmers, I'd rather see programmers writing or porting useful modern software than wasting time on a system to run a bunch of low resolution and/or outdated software.

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X1000 with 2GB memory & OS4.1FE

@Xenic

Quote:

bunch of low resolution and/or outdated software.

Some classic Amiga games are best in their genre - eg. Chaos Engine, Lionheart, Turrican, UFO, Populous or Ambermoon.

Sure, new UAE is not needed. However, small improvement like video scaling (via compositing or overlay) would please many users.

@retro
Quote:

as i understand it,its not just the jit thing that makes things speed op.a clean code should could optimize things. but i am not surei cant code but.

A lot of speed is eaten up by chip set emulation, and if it's not chip set emulation than it is scaling from Amiga resolution to current used GFX.

You will always find a reason for sacrificing emulation speed for emulation quality.


@pavlor
Quote:

JIT makes CPU emulation faster (10 times in case of JIT in WinUAE, current PowerPC JIT in E-UAE is slower).

Some years ago I had a discussion about JIT with UAE users, they made the same test without JIT and it was not much slower than with JIT. Maybe you can find code that really benefits from JIT, other code might not benefit from using it.

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AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

can the current version suport warp3d very well.. what abaut opengl when that comes availbe to os 4.1/2.and thar was that overlay thing allso

@retro

Define "new" and "clean".

Where does this fork from?

What updates are we missing from wherever?

I would support some new movement on UAE, I'd just like to see something well-defined rather than a very vague general idea.

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All glory to the Hypnotoad!

@Arko

Quote:

Some years ago I had a discussion about JIT with UAE users, they made the same test without JIT and it was not much slower than with JIT.

Try it yourself.

SysSpeed 2.6 (WinUAE)
CPU MIPS
JIT: 2436.05
Interpretive: 66.60

@pavlor

It is a shame there are so few Classic Amigas out there working that we need new ways to emulate them.

@retro / pavlor

Thank you guys for your information. Much appreciated.

Must say though that going by some of the comments, it may be better to steer resources towards getting more modern packages onto Amigaos machines, this will keep their longevity for another... say, 25 years :)

On the other hand I think tinkering with emulators is fun, and for some folk necessary should they not want to own/service classic hardware on an ongoing basis. So a good, stable and efficient UAE is always helpful to have.

Q!

"i am home"

@pavlor
Quote:

Try it yourself.

I think what the people arko talked with originally meant was that non-JIT is nowadays fast enough for old games (A500: 2-3 MIPS, right?).

@ara

Iirc, a500 is 0.7 mips computer.

So, jit is irrelevant for a500 games.

UPDATE:
If classic emulation is going to be updated, I think a new A1200+020/030 emulator should be made.
Perhaps so that some parts of AGA emulation could be done directly on RadeonHD GPU.

(I wonder if WinUAE uses SIMD to boost chipset emulation...)

And every Amigan should be able to upgrade affordably to 1Ghz+ CPU. (perhaps to T10xx series from freescale)

Last edited by KimmoK on 16-Apr-2014 at 08:48 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 16-Apr-2014 at 08:44 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 16-Apr-2014 at 08:36 AM.

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@retro

I voted "no" because if it were derived from the original UAE code, it would still be under the GPL and would find its way back to Windows and friends via the open-source viral license.

If Petunia on OS 4 and/or Trance on MorphOS had access to an FPGA-based OCS/ECS emulator such as a similar one in the MiniMig+ or Replay board and could be expanded to something better, I might change my mind. (By the way, the MiniMig core is still GPL so I'd still lean in favor of something relicensed or under a different license.)

@retro

As far as I can tell there is plenty of room for improvement regarding the chipset emulation in E-UAE. You can experience major slowdowns in the emulation when certain chipset features are uses by the emulated program.

However, probably it would be better to (back)port a regularly maintained version of UAE, like WinUAE rather than trying to improve the complete mess called E-UAE. It is possible to merge the PPC JIT implementation to a different version of UAE.

I don't think that starting the chipset emulation from scratch would be a viable option. It would take years to build it up the chipset emulation to be able to emulate the OCS features alone and AGA is even more complicated. Just to get rid of the license: not worth the effort.

Using a hardware chipset implementation sounds an interesting option, but do we have enough maintainable supply from the hardware? Because spending a year on this just to make 50 users happy: frankly this is not appealing too much...

Anyway, if you would consider setting up a bounty then you have to list the exact goals what you want to achieve. For example: this and that games must run on constant 25 FPS on a specified hardware. Otherwise how could you decide whether the development for the bounty satisfies your needs?

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Álmos Rajnai

@Rachy

Quote:

I don't think that starting the chipset emulation from scratch would be a viable option. It would take years to build it up the chipset emulation to be able to emulate the OCS features alone and AGA is even more complicated. Just to get rid of the license: not worth the effort.

No, not starting from scratch.

Remember you vaguely promised me that you will try to jit..ize the chipset too (or thinking about to) as soon as the main jit will be finished

Quote:

Using a hardware chipset implementation sounds an interesting option, but do we have enough maintainable supply from the hardware? Because spending a year on this just to make 50 users happy: frankly this is not appealing too much...

An hardware chipset implementation? This is really cool!

Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 16-Apr-2014 at 04:10 PM.

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retired

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

Remember you vaguely promised me that you will try to jit..ize the chipset too (or thinking about to) as soon as the main jit will be finished

Vaguely? ;)
I don't recall any promise I made regarding improving E-UAE apart from the PPC JIT.

It might be possible probably, but I don't know enough about the Amiga chipsets to be able to do this anyway.

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Álmos Rajnai