@Britelite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFrSLTxFK-k

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFrSLTxFK-k

Still 3D-accelerated...

Last edited by Britelite on 23-Apr-2014 at 04:30 PM.

@Britelite

Yes, but is so hard to find one that is not

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Yes, but is so hard to find one that is not

Wonder why...

@Britelite

Well most of benchmarks are about best performance and overlocked systems, they are the ones people want to brag about.

While 640x480 is not some thing people brag about, it should be possible.
Most graphic cards on Amiga have hardware acceleration, only really old graphic cards do not.

The Cybervison came in two versions 64 and 64/3D, and unluckily I have not come a cross anyone demoing the 060 whit 640x480 on plain old 64.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Apr-2014 at 05:03 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

While 640x480 is not some thing people brag about, it should be possible.

Sure, if you want stuff to run at 5fps.

I'll hit you with some simple maths. Let's be generous and say that 060 demos run at 16 fps on AGA (assuming PAL @ 50hz). Which means each screen takes 3 frames to render, with the c2p taking a frame. So, let's say blitting 640x480 to an RTG card only takes one frame, you still have to calculate and render the screen, which means if it takes 2 frames at 320x200, it will take four times the amount at 640x400. So, one screen will take around 9 frames to calculate, which means we're down to a framerate of 5-6fps @ 50hz.

Last edited by Britelite on 23-Apr-2014 at 05:17 PM.

@NutsAboutAmiga
Quote:

While 640x480 is not some thing people brag about, it should be possible.

Actually it's pretty easy to find out. It all comes down to simple math. If you have a 320x240 framebuffer in 256 colors, and want to do 30fps, you need 320x240x30 bytes to copy per second to the RTG card, which is 2304000 bytes, so 2.3MB/sec.

If you want to do it in 15 bit high color, that's 4.6MB/sec, and that's what a Zorro II RTG card already cannot do (at least my PicassoIV in my A2000/060 tops around 4MB/sec)...

If you want to use 640x480 and 256 colors thats *4 times the data, so to sustain 30fps animation, you would need ~9.2MB/sec of bandwidth, which is already well in Z3 range... And that is just the CPU pushing bytes to the RTG card, not doing any kind of rendering or calculation of the effects. Of course, you might be slightly better with PCI busboards (G-Rex, mainly) and CVision/BVision, but if you don't have the bus as the bottleneck you're going to hit the CPU's limit very quickly.

CPU wise, since the Amiga 060 cards doesn't sport an L2 cache, the 8K L1 cache is already a bottleneck when rendering to 320x240 frames, because if you process full frames, you end up trashing your whole cache many times per frame, and introduces massive slowdowns. The larger the screen, the more. So anything which manages to do high speed rendering on Amiga RTG in high resolution doesn't really move data *THROUGH* the bus or render large bitmaps from CPU, just shuffles around data which is already in the local memory of the videocard. (Same with 3D actually, guess why you need to upload all the textures first... )

End of story. If you want to prove me wrong, go ahead and make a 640x480 demo on 060.

Edit: And Britelite was faster...

Last edited by Chain-Q on 23-Apr-2014 at 05:35 PM.

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@Overflow

Are this amiga OS4 demo?

SDL, MiniGL?

Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 23-Apr-2014 at 06:31 PM.

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@Chain-Q

If 4Mb is the limit then It will work whit about 13 FPS, thats not too bad.
I don't think you need 30fps to make it look ok, I think 25fps should be ok, but maybe its hoping too much.

Quote:

CPU wise, since the Amiga 060 cards doesn't sport an L2 cache, the 8K L1 cache is already a bottleneck when rendering to 320x240 frames,

But it can be moved by Fat/Super Buster DMA, at lest Buster Rev 11 is not broken, I don't know what the best transfer speed is but, it should be way better then doing it by the CPU.

I guess the Amiga 1200 does not have that, but Amiga 4000T does, so maybe the best Amiga hardware can do better then what you say, or experiences.

Your Amiga 2000 does not have any DMA support at all, A3000/A4000 can be upgraded to Rev 11.

Also don't forget the Amiga 2000 uses Zorro II specifications basically a mirror Amiga 500 Zorro slot, the data bus is only 16 bit at 4Mb/s you say.

So if you did have computer whit out buster that did have full 32 bit data-bus, then you should be able to do at lest 8 Mb/s (Amiga 3000/Amiga 1200), theoretically around 27 FPS (not doing anything else, assuming the CPU can do it)

http://www.l8r.net/technical/t-zorro.shtml

http://www.amiga.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-25658.html

If you read the Zorro III specifications, the real transfer speed should be around 13.5 Mb/s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Zorro_III

Whit 13.5 Mb/s you can do about 46 fps that's not bad at all, and if the Buster is doing the job, the CPU is free do push out more nice effects.

Not saying its easy, but there is more that can be done I believe, and 320x240 should not be the upper limit.

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@Britelite

Quote:

Show PC demomakers that OS4 can't do anything as good as a modern PC? Just face it, the PC's have better CPU's and GPU's, so they will run circles around anything OS4-related.

tell demomakers you are not using any 3D, the hardware runs at 1 GHz or so, with only one core. It should produce a small wow effect, IMO.
If it's more than a few shadebobs of course

As long as nobody tries, nobody can know the result.

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@elwood

X1000 is 1.8 Ghz

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Apr-2014 at 09:02 PM.

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@Chain-Q

I 've tried running "Shake of the dust" by Elude from cli (in order to add the -double parameter and get fullscreen mode) but I get the following error:

Quote:

[Box:bboxCalculate: 44]BBox: -1230.000000,-1288.000000,-1095.000000 - 1257.000000,1223.000000,1015.000000 Object file lwobj/fx02_glow.lobj not found Assertion (mem!=NULL) failed in file grd_object.c at line 1068 Abnormal program termination

Actually the error output is bigger but I post just the last lines of it.
If I double click the executable however, the demo runs just fine.
Can you pls check it as well?

edit: The above is on MorphOS 3.5
edit2: Serenity works from cli with -double option. Also I think that -ahi parameter isn't needed since it seems to automatically detect AHI. Am I correct?

Last edited by Cool_amigaN on 23-Apr-2014 at 09:55 PM.
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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Whit 13.5 Mb/s you can do about 46 fps that's not bad at all, and if the Buster is doing the job, the CPU is free do push out more nice effects.

I'm sorry but that would require a ZorroIII DMA card that took data from fastram and the only ones that could do that theorically are probably CVisionPPC/BVisionPPC (it's unimplemented, that's for sure) and G-Rex. But AFAIK no DMA gfx driver exists for that. All amiga ZorroII/III gfx cards require that the cpu pushes all the bytes into the gfx card ram.

So Charlie was absolutely right, that 13.5MB/s would be only moving data, if you perform calculations you won't be able to write as fast.

Last edited by Crumb on 23-Apr-2014 at 10:02 PM.

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@Britelite

Quote:

I'll hit you with some simple maths. Let's be generous and say that 060 demos run at 16 fps on AGA (assuming PAL @ 50hz). Which means each screen takes 3 frames to render, with the c2p taking a frame. So, let's say blitting 640x480 to an RTG card only takes one frame,

Lets assume its free copied if its done by buster rev 11.

Quote:

you still have to calculate and render the screen, which means if it takes 2 frames at 320x200, it will take four times the amount at 640x400. So, one screen will take around 9 frames to calculate,

You say 2*4 (reader) +1 (move it to video mem) = 9.
so lets assume its only 8, as Buster is moving it to video mem.

Quote:

which means we're down to a framerate of 5-6fps @ 50hz.

I lost you me you say max is 16fps then you subtract 9 fps and get 5 or 6fps? Should be 7 by my math.
So lets say we are using Buster, so its 8fps.

So now lets do the same math on AGA demo.

You have 16fps max and you subtract 2 fps ro render, and 1 to copy you have 13fps on your AGA demo, so thats not correct.

So we need assume that your math is wrong to begin whit, we most assume theoretically best fps is 16+2+1 = 19fps.
And thats 320*200 = 64000 bytes *19 = 1Mb/s

I'm pretty shore 68060 @ 50 Mhz is faster then that.

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@Britelite

Let do the math again based on real numbers.

http://amiga.resource.cx/perf/sysspeed.html

CyberStorm III (060/50, 3.1, Infinitiv Z3i
Seagate Medalist 1270SL (ST51270A), FFS, 512)

say's it can do write speed at 23.38Mb/s (ideal speed).

That translate to a best frame rate of 23.28Mb/s /(320x200) = 381fps
now lets subtract your numbers, 2 frames to render 1 to copy, we have 378fps :-p

so this boils down to the fact that the demos your are referring to are using way more time to render then what you assume.

And I do expect the p2c is costing you way more then 1 frame to do.

If we do the same calculation whit chipmem.

0.9Mb/s / (320x200) = 14,74 fps.

So I guess that what this shows is that your numbers are based on chipmem bottleneck. So the numbers you use for AGA is incorrect for RTG, the bottleneck for RTG is the bus speed.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Apr-2014 at 10:40 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Apr-2014 at 10:40 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Apr-2014 at 10:29 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga
Quote:

Lets assume its free copied if its done by buster rev 11.

Heh? The Buster is a Bus Arbiter (hence it's name), not a DMA circuitry, it won't copy a single byte for you. The device, which claims master status on the bus (eg. a video card) would have to do the copying, but no Zorro III video card in existence supports DMA. Long story short: you still need to copy with the CPU. Therefore all your calculations based on fast memory speed has nothing to do with reality.

But won't continue this pointless argument. It was stated a few times already, please just go ahead and make a 640x480 effect and see for yourself instead of coming up with random numbers based on imaginary scenarios.

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As someone who's had a little bit of experience playing with C2P on AGA I can tell you that 640x480 (8 bit) kills AGA stone dead. It comes down to bandwidth (I point my finger at the slow CHIPRAM).

I'm talking about full screen updates which you need to do if you want smooth animation (double buffering), obviously if you're just doing dirty updates the performance in 640x480 AGA isn't too bad.

I've found that you need to go as low as 320x200 (PAL) to get really smooth full screen updates on even the most basic 3D scenes (for the retro scene we'll say that 15 FPS is really smooth). You can just about get away with 320x240 and even 320x256 if you have a very fast 060 and your system is configured properly (patches!). But as soon as you swap up to 640x480 (PAL....which is really 640x512) then the whole thing grinds to a halt :)

Interesting, if you are using using RTG as a 'dumb frame-buffer' the performance difference from drawing a 320x200 chunky screen compared to doing AGA C2P is negligible. You don't really see much of a difference compared to AGA C2P until you start bumping up the resolution above 320x256 at which point RTG can be significantly quicker than AGA. I say 'can be quicker' because it depends on lots of factors like the graphics card, the drivers and the bus it is using.

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You guys do know who "Britelite" is right? I think you should listen to his reason..

@realize

Quote:

realize wrote: You guys do know who "Britelite" is right? I think you should listen to his reason..

No I don't know, enlighten me please

@NovaCoder
He's one of the most active Amiga demoscene coders in the past years (decade?), on anything from '000/OCS to '060/AGA and beyond (some of his 060 stuff even works on OS4 and MorphOS). Last weekend he won the Oldschool 4K intro compo with his OCS intro on Revision 2014, which is the largest demoscene event in the world.

Previously he coded Boogietown, Metropolice and Kioea, among others... And he's also active on a bunch of other platforms beside Amiga...

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