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      /  Amiga's future, or lack of
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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 10:05:38
#221 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

I think ARIX is (what I know up to now) the potential most modern OS we have. But still even the best OS is nothing without the software and that software does not magically appear.

Look at Haiku. It is much more modern than what we have right now (till ARIX is there of course ).

here is a link to the user forum:
http://haiku-os.org/forum

there is less activity than on any of our forums (from what I see). And on the software side I would bet that there is not much except ports. Amiga was mainstream and we have much more software, most important compilers. So I do not agree there.

68k is part of the revival or no revival.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Jul-2014 at 10:08 AM.

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KimmoK 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 10:11:36
#222 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@WolfToTheMoon

@ 60$ ... 100$ Windows 8.1 tablet ...

http://liliputing.com/2014/06/emdoor-miso-one-first-7-inch-windows-8-1-tablets.html
http://liliputing.com/2014/06/emdoor-em-i8080-100-windows-8-tablet.html

Interesting.
x86 tablets are becoming cheaper than ARM ones.... and one can use normal windows apps like WinUAE with JIT & bells & whistless ...
Let's see when it's really out.

(+I wonder how 3D for AROS on intel SoC is progressing...)

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
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BigGun 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 10:19:35
#223 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

@pavlor

Quote:
Sure, dnetc is not ideal benchmark, but you can see performance gap between NG hardware and best classic CPU.


You are right dnetc is a silly benchmark.
Pick whatever benchmark you want and you can proove whatever you want.

Another example:
All AMIGA people know bitplanes and convertions like C2P from to them.
Phoenix has C2P assembly instruction and can do this conversion very fast.
If someone wanted he/she could now benchmakr the 68K in this and could show
that the 68K can easily outperform AMIGA PowerPC systems even with ALTIVEC code.


Now some people might think this is an "old-technique" and not needed in today?
Its true that Planar is uncomon in other platfroms GFX formats now, but
planar like data-storage is very common in some high end databases
and the needed conversions are absolutely time critical in some very expensive database systems.
Because this is so important IBM does provide ALTIVEC libaries to do this for POWER.
And to improve performance in this the new POWER8 CPU actually does add a C2P instruction just like the one in the 68K core.

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BigGun 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 10:20:00
#224 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

@pavlor

If you want to compare systems you need a reasonable benchmark.
Do you have a P6 system?

If yes would you like to run this test please?
http://www.apollo-core.com/sortbench/index.htm?page=downloads

Last edited by BigGun on 25-Jul-2014 at 10:22 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 10:20:24
#225 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

for companies tablets with windows are much more interesting than android tablets and smartphones. If they really become competitive regarding price they will certainly sell

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 10:24:37
#226 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@BigGun

Quote:
If yes would you like to run this test please?


Would you like to run some application benchmark?

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 10:28:43
#227 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@pavlor

you must not answer every question with a counter question?

Then I start that too

why not doing the other benchmark first?

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BigGun 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 10:40:02
#228 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

@pavlor

Quote:
Would you like to run some application benchmark?


Thats exactly my point.
Everyone has to find what application is important for him.

We are all old enough to know what we want.
I'm sure if people go buy a car they do not just look for the most horse power, but for a reasonable car which fullfills their needs.

If for you a crypto Altivec routine is most important then this is your personal benchmark.

For me other things are important.
I like to have a system which has:

a) Workbench is fast
b) MP3 decoding is no problem
c) The system is fast enough to fluently play this type fo games:
http://www.greyhound-data.com/gunnar/robinhood/index.htm?page=screenshots

I have a system which can do this and I'm happy with it.




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pavlor 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 11:29:19
#229 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@BigGun

Quote:
Everyone has to find what application is important for him.


Exactly.


What about video/movies: Is 360p or 480p feasible for your core (I mean classic videos like on youtube)?
Basic 3D games: Quake in 640x480 or even 800x600?
Internet: Useable for basic browsing with few tabs in internet browser?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 11:41:46
#230 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@BigGun

Quote:
a) Workbench is fast


I be really disappointed if it was not. Workbench is simple desktop application.

Quote:
b) MP3 decoding is no problem


Can it play 1080p videos or not is my benchmark, and then there is 4K videos and 8K videos.
Its all about CPU power and hardware acceleration, if we want to stay modern.

Besides games on x86 and Tablets and Phones and Game consols are going to be even more demanding next year and the year after.

Quote:
Now some people might think this is an "old-technique" and not needed in today?
Its true that Planar is uncommon in other platforms GFX formats now


Planar graphics is uselessly lowres and its limited to 256 colors or some kind of HAM8 mode, if you want better picture quality then True color makes more sense. Even Super-AGA adapts True color graphics, so even on your FPGA machines, planar graphic is going to be second choice.

Modern days planar graphics like yv12 or yuv420p has nothing to with bitplans like we used, this modes are organized in bytes, so nothing like the stuff we used 25 years a go.

Quote:
c) The system is fast enough to fluently play this type fo games:
http://www.greyhound-data.com/gunnar/robinhood/index.htm?page=screenshots


This games like that where popular in the late 90's, anyone with old PII or PIII computer can play this and they work parity well in DosBOX and other emulators as well.

if people run the games and programs you have in mind in a emulator on there existing computer way should they invest in it?

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-Jul-2014 at 11:49 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-Jul-2014 at 11:46 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-Jul-2014 at 11:45 AM.

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BigGun 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 15:06:25
#231 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

Quote:
Planar graphics is uselessly


Ha ha
You did not understand the whole discussion.

The whole discussion tries to explain to thinks

1)
By picking the benchmakr you can manipulate the result.
You can pick a benchmark in such a way that a 68030 is faster than a 68060.
Or that a 600MHz G3 is faster than a 2 GHz PA6.

2)
The second point is let people be happy with "WHAT THEY WANT".
Only you care about what you want - the rest of the world cares shit about your opinion.
If people are happy with the speed of the 68030 - then it does not matter to them that newest x86 is X-times faster.
If people like to use Planar GFX - than it matter not whether you like it.

Let people have their own opinion and stop telling them what YOU think they should do.

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asymetrix 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 15:31:09
#232 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 868
From: United Kingdom

@thread

Please lets not get side tracked with technological discussions.

We need 50,000 units for a market. so 50,000 over 5 years is 10,000 units per year.

We aim for NEW hardware EVERY 2 years.

Today a customer just wants to use a device, they dont need to know the technology. As long as it can do the job they will be happy.

We can use x86/arm/ppc or FPGA - The hardware does not matter aslong as ALL devices behave same way eg We can DEBUG 68k.

What I think we need is a small CONSOLE like device - WHY we want bring FUN back into the home with games.

This console is to play simple RETRO games, not compete with PS4. Also use as a computer.

Time and time again customers are NOT having fun even after buying the latest 2014 consoles - ONLY AMIGA can do this.

Customers are expecting a media interface, like PS4 so Amiga needs XMB UI with 3rd party custom theme capability.

Hardware speed and capabilities DO NOT MATTER - We will always INCREASE capability when released with updates and NEW Hardware every 2 years.

Alot of people will say negative things, but unless it is field tested we wont know for sure.
The worst thing can happen is WE BRING OLD AMIGA USERS BACK to play with our toy system. That is good I say !

Lets have FUN developing new games together, share each other code to make games faster like we used to, when the rest of the world sees our games they will want to join in the fun too !
This is what you call 'BUZZ' when everyone sees WE ARE HAPPY, not when we are always disagreeing or fighting.

Anyone tried hire one of the OUYA developers for a feasibility study for 68k version or PPC vs arm -> 68k emulation capabilities ?

Another option would be discard OCS/AGA chipset (for now) -start FRESH - create GFX mapping to a VIRTUAL 24/32 bit chipset + EFFECTS.

So in effect banging hardware the old way to a 'Virtual Graphic chipset' Super-AGA VGU 1.0 which accesses hardware via GPU commands eg OpenCL. This way we have a chipset to 'bang' but also portable across graphics architectures of the future - using a Virtual Graphics Unit.


Dont forget there are powerful SOCs out there, personal preference EG :

mali 450 amlogic am 8726 - m8 sytem on chip 6 core mali 450 gpu core @600 MHZ + 4 core mali arm cortrex A9 @ 2GHZ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gg-z85b-fo

summary

#1 Simple Console like device $50
#2 Hardware agnostic, 68000 + Super-AGA v 1.0 compatible
#3 XMB UI
#4 Games developer suite - software and web site (discussions, code fragments and source repositories)

A personal achievement for me would be that Amiga has FUN games like Super Mario 3D world .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3AmK77pvtM

Last edited by asymetrix on 25-Jul-2014 at 04:19 PM.
Last edited by asymetrix on 25-Jul-2014 at 04:05 PM.
Last edited by asymetrix on 25-Jul-2014 at 03:46 PM.
Last edited by asymetrix on 25-Jul-2014 at 03:33 PM.
Last edited by asymetrix on 25-Jul-2014 at 03:31 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 15:39:50
#233 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@BigGun

Quote:
By picking the benchmakr you can manipulate the result.


That is why I mentioned application benchmarks - video playback and 2D/3D gaming performance are something comparable between platforms and requested by many users.

Could you try OGR on Apollo core? Just to see raw performance we can expect.

Or this lame test (rules from Benchmarks time! thread):



2 - lame 3.98-2 test:

got the public mp3 file(the first I found):

http://www.maninblack.org/demos/WhereDoAllTheJunkiesComeFrom.mp3

decompessed with:

lame --decode to obtain wav file for the test.

than executed lame without args(simply "lame filename") and got:



Thanks for your time.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 15:44:51
#234 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@asymetrix

Quote:
PPC vs arm -> 68k emulation capabilities


For compatible 68k applications there is JIT in both OS4 and MorphOS (up to 1/5 in case of Petunia or even 1/3 of native performanci in case of Trance).
68k JIT for PowerPC E-UAE is still in developement - now delivers 2-4 times performance of interpretive emulation.

There is no such JIT for ARM, not yet. interpretive emulation is sloooooow.

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Nameless 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 16:13:04
#235 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Nov-2008
Posts: 315
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

I think focusing on NG Amigas as a way to reach any mass market at this point is foolish. First off, the powers that be have little interest in making cheap NG Amigas, as evidenced by their prices for the last 10 years. It makes sense from a business perspective, as they are selling to an extremely niche market. When you have a marketplace of like 1000 users, whatever you sell them better have a high markup.

The general public could care less about any NG Amiga. Even former Amiga people would at best take a glance at it, consider the price, and then consider what they'd even do with it, and pass.

A retro system, priced at the level of a console game, would be cheap enough to be considered disposable income. You get former Amiga people at that price and retro gamers. You can say it's not a way forward, but do you really think AOS/MorphOS is marching towards progress as it is? They are going at a snail's pace. AROS or even ARIX on a cheap FPGA would at least get the Amiga out there, in the 10s of thousands, perhaps many more. If it sells, then there is funding to do something with -- port AOS/Morphos to a different chipset, something. And more importantly, you have a new userbase who might actually be interested in something Amiga-related.

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Signal 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 25-Jul-2014 18:39:36
#236 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 664
From: USA

Nevermind what other people are actually doing. Quit pointing out how foolish those doers
are. Put some conviction into that stream of hot air and actually open your purse and DO something that costs more than an internet connection. Then, when you have properly saved Amiga, we will all bow to you.

Till then, whew! will somebody please turn on the AC.


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number6 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 29-Jul-2014 12:57:22
#237 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@cgutjahr

Quote:
I'm saying that the users are projecting their own motivations for still being a part of the community


quite a bit here recently about motivation

I also see some statements in the above link supporting your assertions in this thread.

I wonder if devs starting to say the same things holds more weight and could lead to a more positive discussion/resolution?

#6

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 29-Jul-2014 14:24:34
#238 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@Nameless

Quote:
I think focusing on NG Amigas as a way to reach any mass market at this point is foolish


I agree...

I wasn't talking about mass market penetration, rather about achieving a healthy, self sustaining Amiga market - which is some 20-30 000 users, maybe a bit more.

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drstrangelove 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 29-Jul-2014 15:42:26
#239 ]
Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2005
Posts: 93
From: Unknown

@All

Not sure if I should post in this thread .....
But .....

From the lab of friends of PTA:

motherboard:

- 8 GB DDR3 RAM
- 2 CHIPS (can not reveal more but may be similar to fpga ....) 2 GHz
- PCIe 3.0 x16 (x1)
- Nvidia 9800 GT
- 1 ethernet
- 6 USB 3

hardware objective:

- 3 × 68K (softcore 68k) + (NUMA instructions 68K20)
- 2 GB RAM for each 68K
- 2 GB RAM (RamDisk)
- ECS VHDL (output to Nvidia SLI)

software:

- AmigaOS 3.1 (from Cloanto Amiga Forever)
- NUMA.library
- SAS C compiler (Amiga 3.1)
- Other things ....

problems:

Amiga part works but does NOT use the full potential of the Nvidia card
Only demo programs make use of NUMA
Only ECS
Just USB, ethernet and audio output ......

Many more problems ..... but I do not remember ....

When completed, I want one

Last edited by drstrangelove on 29-Jul-2014 at 04:26 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 29-Jul-2014 15:44:28
#240 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@drstrangelove

Nice board, driver support from Amiga side is another question.

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