@KimmoK

Quote:

Gallium3D on AOS4.2 is designed to "Support multi-threading and multiple CPU’s", I wonder if that gives any clues of multicore implementation. Multithreading sounds little bit towards SMP kind of multiprocessing support. (IMO)

Well with out dual core, there is "almost" no point in multi-threading a application because threads will need to scheduled on the same core (you don't get any speed up). What this means is simply that Gallium3D is multi-threaded.

Well that's how I understand it.

Well there are some benefits to multi-threading a program on single core CPU.

1. It makes it easier to do things in the background, with out being forced to wait for some other thing to get finish first.
2. It simplify the event loop's.
3. It can remove some code complexity by not having to try to schedule thing your self in your own code, let the OS do it for you.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Aug-2014 at 03:40 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Aug-2014 at 03:39 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Aug-2014 at 03:29 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Was talking about 4,1 newest OS with Odyssey and all. That made a Guru meditation and crashed a few times in a site. IBrowse worked somehow to see the important info. That's why. PC was working with a viruscheck but now is quite fine so have to use it.

The Best would be as everybody knows a virus free Amiga with a working browser.

I just thought that One could "multitask" the other prosessor core and use it in another program. Maybe it's comming but I leave it here as don't understand the programming. Used to have 030 A4000, then 040 turbo, now 060 PIV Tower A1200 and an XE and 10 A1200:s and a few A500:s with a lot of hw so some experience.

Just a Firefox (newest) port or Chrome is too hard?

@PR

You're behind the times, dude. Odyssey is a modern browser supporting everything up till HTML5 (on AOS4, mainly HTML5 apps only though). Haven't had any problems with Odyssey ever, it's IMHO (nearly) the best browser of all OS's I've ever used or still use besides AOS4 (Win, OSX, Linux, ChromeOS and Haiku) and I "only" have an AONE500 (which is not nearly as powerful as an X1000) so that says a lot.

Last edited by Vistaus on 08-Aug-2014 at 11:07 AM.
Last edited by Vistaus on 08-Aug-2014 at 11:06 AM.

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@PR

Quote:

That made a Guru meditation and crashed a few times in a site. IBrowse worked somehow to see the important info.

I quit using Ibrowse 2.3/2.4 because of it was unstable,“Guru meditation” I have not seen that in few years, it might be because try to keep away for software that is buggy.

Quote:

The Best would be as everybody knows a virus free Amiga

where do you get your software from, I have not seen a virus last time was when I was using a Amiga 500

Quote:

I just thought that One could "multitask" the other prosessor core and use it in another program.

This is what they call AMP, (a simple for of multicore support), this is how WarpOS/PowerUP works, program not knowing about 2en cores can't use it, and so system can't take full advantage of the CPU cores most of the time.

Quote:

“XE” and “ of hw so some experience.“

I think you did have bad experience with your XE, so you think that every one have crashes and problems,

My experience with XE is that picky about RAM, there where number of design problems on the PCB, that made IRQ signals a big problem, PSU provided with board was poor quality It broke, the vcore volt regulators was set wrong from Eyetech, Eyetech was using G3 and G4 with different P/N numbers some high voltage and some low voltage versions, if remember correct some even got a beta chip from Freescale that should never have been sold to end users. The USB D+ and D- did not have pull up resistors, so input signals where floating. so the USB did problems detecting thins being plugged in and out. there was also problems with DMA thanks to crappy north-bridge chip. Oh yes and CPU fan also sucked so 933Mhz CPU'S was clocked at 800Mhz, and the backup battery discharged over time.

So if your computer was crashing a lot, I can understand that, but its not AmigaOS4.x fault that Eyetech & MiaLogic sucked at making hardware.
It might also appropriate to blame hardware re-sellers for building computers with bad PSU, and CPU fan.

Actually my XE is pretty stable now.

This is what I have done to it:

* Added pull down resistors to USB D+,D- (13KOhm)
* Replaced PSU.
* Did the IRQ fix for AGP to fix the IRQ conflict.
* Replaced RAM.
* Adjusted Vcore settings.
* Reattached yellow capacitor on CPU module as it came lose.
* Experimented with what PCI card worked in what PCI slot, with freezes and crashes.
* Sent the CPU module to repair to Acube-System after the CPU brunt up, replaced the CPU.
* The backup battery problem has just disappeared like magic.
* I don't run software the I know to be buggy like Ibrowse.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Aug-2014 at 06:22 AM.
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Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Aug-2014 at 04:44 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Aug-2014 at 04:01 PM.

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@KimmoK

Quote:

Have you ever studied work arounds for porting threaded apps to Amiga?

Not much. It isn't made clear what they mean by SPS either.

@salass00

Quote:

AmigaOS already supports threads, they are just called tasks and processes in the API.

I'm not thinking of the idea of Exec being one big master process and all Amiga programs being its threads living in Sharesville.

I'm thinking of each program being independant and having subordinate threads.

But in any case, if each program is seperate and has its own data, how can they all be joint threads for one process?

Quote:

What AmigaOS doesn't support (and likely won't any time soon) is proper processes with own memory spaces

Programs can allocate data for private use. As well as specifying it as shared. And each program has their own virtual address.

@Belxjander

Quote:

Aren't ALL Amiga tasks equivalent to your threads and AmigaDOS expanded processes equivalent to a full application in this context?

This is a common idea in the modern age since they all run in a shared address space, so this has kind of become ana Amiga joke. But my thread idea differs as it brings threads closer to home and removes seperation.

All programs at their heart are tasks on the Amiga. A process is a task with an ability to call DOS functions, it has a process structure. A process has a task embedded at first.

Last edited by Hypex on 09-Aug-2014 at 10:06 AM.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

A child process can be started by the main process, this is what I call this treading, this is how pthreads works on AmigaOS, it builds on processes.

It's still a seperate process. Which makes it hard to share variables.

For example a main process should be able to open a library and then call a function from a thread. But that can't be done if a library base won't share to a chlid process.

Quote:

A task is not a thread, because it too simple, it can't do file io operations for example, you need a process if you like to do file IO operations and so on.

A thread should be simple. But even with a process (same thing as task to Exec) it's still seperate entity to the parent.

Quote:

Anyway if you want to get some understanding about some issues you might want to look up Mutex / Shampore and Spinlocks

Yes I've looked those up. Used a semaphore myself. Haven't heard of a shampore.

Quote:

If you have threading on the same process, then you will prevent threads to be scheduled on different cores by Exec.

Exec could split processes across cores in any case.

Quote:

That's whats called a "fork" many operating systems do not support that, its a Linux thing, you don't need support for "fork" to support threading, please look up pthreads.

I see that type of thing a lot. Maybe in Linux but other OS would have the same sort of function. I recall some problems porting Linux code because of this.

But if PThreads can allow a thread to share variables with a parent it is doing something fancy.

Last edited by Hypex on 08-Aug-2014 at 06:06 PM.

-excuse me, wrong post-

Last edited by Vistaus on 08-Aug-2014 at 06:31 PM.

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@Hypex

If there is no semaphore protection (or mutex) of the heap, it is unsafe for globals and static variables to be shared eg. via fork. That's why PThreads makes fork obsolete (though still commonly used on Linux).

@Hypex

Quote:

But if PThreads can allow a thread to share variables with a parent it is doing something fancy.

its not fancy, its pretty simple.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14588767/where-in-memory-are-my-variables-stored-in-c

Global variables are stored as data, they are not stored on stack, this makes it possible for a treads (child process) to share global variables with the main program (main process).

Pthreads and CreateNewProc()/Dos.library taks address to function as argument, this entry becomes the thread (child process).

http://amiga.sourceforge.net/amigadevhelp/phpwebdev.php?keyword=CreateNewProc&funcgroup=AmigaOS&action=Search

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@Samurai_Crow

Umh, I have never done software development on Linux but doesnt fork() create new copy of global and static variables?

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@itix

It's a bit complicated, some things like file descriptors are shared and other things like file locks are not.

And so it becomes really complicated before you know it, a real can of worms it seams.

http://www.linuxprogrammingblog.com/threads-and-fork-think-twice-before-using-them

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Aug-2014 at 04:32 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Aug-2014 at 11:30 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

I dont think it is more complicated than any other form of multithreading. When multithreading you must understand how used threading model works and plan ahead.

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@itix

The problem is that fork() have no good definition. The semantics also vary between systems, even those that are "true Unix" - derived from the original Unix sources. Yes the simple things "works" but for more complicated stuff... Well, it either don't or have to be done in system specific ways.

Fork simply isn't a good match for modern programming practices.

IMHO, YMMV.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @PR ... * I don't run software the I know to be buggy like Ibrowse.

Hmm - I use IBrowse 2.4 (on OS 3.9/WarpOS) since a decade or so and never noticed a bug.

What do you do with IBrowse that it runs so unstable on your HW?

Or are the crashes due to your buggy HW?
Or is there an incompatibility between IBrowse and OS 4.x ( I assume you are using OS 4.x)?

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Dandy
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@Dandy

Quote:

Hmm - I use IBrowse 2.4 (on OS 3.9/WarpOS) since a decade or so and never noticed a bug.

AmigaOS4.1 has some bult in memory protection, AmigaOS3.x does not have that but it there is a lot tools that can be run in the background that will patch the AmigaOS3.x and add some thing like what AmigaOS4.x has.

http://aminet.net/dev/debug

you might detect bugs easier if you run “Enforcer” or “MemGuard” or any tool like that.

And because this bug is network related I guess you should install roadshow, as this is the network stack AmigaOS4 use.

Quote:

What do you do with IBrowse that it runs so unstable on your HW?

Go to web page with lots images, often triggers the bug.

Quote:

Or are the crashes due to your buggy HW?

No, thats unlikely, Aweb and other programs works fine.

Quote:

Or is there an incompatibility between IBrowse and OS 4.x ( I assume you are using OS 4.x)?

It was in network process in Ibrowse. It can crash after 30min or after hours of use, Its not possible for me point out the exact cause of this.

All I know is that IBrowse network process does not crash if I do not use IBrowse

I think this crash can be because by Lack of Semaphore protection this typical or running out of stack.

Well its just guessing, don't have the source code.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 12-Aug-2014 at 01:19 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 12-Aug-2014 at 01:17 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 12-Aug-2014 at 01:15 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @Dandy Quote: Hmm - I use IBrowse 2.4 (on OS 3.9/WarpOS) since a decade or so and never noticed a bug. AmigaOS4.1 has some bult in memory protection, AmigaOS3.x does not have that but it there is a lot tools that can be run in the background that will patch the AmigaOS3.x and add some thing like what AmigaOS4.x has. http://aminet.net/dev/debug

Do you think its fair to call IBrowse 'buggy', just because it has problems with OS 4.x, for which it was never designed?

From your explanation I would rather think the cause of the problem is OS 4.x, which is apparently not able to run all OS 3.x software properly (assuming you use the 68k version with OS 4.x).

With OS 3.9/WarpOS (BBs I & II) IBrowse runs flawlessly here since a decade or so.

As it was designed for OS 3.x, I'd say it is a stable program, as long as you use it in that way the devs had in mind during its development. If you take a look at the 'system requirements' for IB 68k, you will see that you need at least Kickstart 3.0 (and Workbench or OS, of course).

Maybe I got something wrong - but I seem to remember that at one point during the OS 4 development there was talk about integrating something like a 'sandbox' in OS 4, where OS 3.x soft could run like in an OS 3.x emulator, without the risk of jeopardising the OS 4 side? Perhaps this implementation is faulty...

Unfortunately I never got to the point where I could test OS 3.x software on my OS 4.0 classic installation, as OS 4.x classic doesn't support my hardware to a degree where it is usable for me on my HW config (poor Mediator support resulting in being limited to 10 mBit network transfer rates, poor USB support resulting in being limited to USB 1.1, and so on...).
I was hoping that later versions of OS 4.x classic would fix that, but I became disappointed.

So the OS 4.0 classic installation on my A4k PPC remained "experimental" up to now...

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: ... It was in network process in Ibrowse. It can crash after 30min or after hours of use, Its not possible for me point out the exact cause of this. All I know is that IBrowse network process does not crash if I do not use IBrowse ...

Not really sure about what you mean with 'network process'...

But wasn't there also a limited OEM version of IBrowse included with AmigaOS 4.x? How does THAT work with OS 4?
Does it also have the probs you mentioned?
Or did I get you completely wrong and you were talking about this OS4 version of IB all the time?

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Dandy
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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Quote:

From your explanation I would rather think the cause of the problem is OS 4.x, which is apparently not able to run all OS 3.x software properly (assuming you use the 68k version with OS 4.x).

IB is very stable on OS4, I use it for 99% of my browsing, and Odysee for the few sites which just won't function properly with IB.

I used to get that network subtask crash too but it went away once I blacklisted IB from the Petunia 68k JIT emulation.

With the JIT something would go wrong and occasionally one or more of those parallel network connections subprocesses would end up crashing but not systematically either.

As it never happens without the JIT and only started happening after some update to Petunia, obviously something broke there, but there has been several Petunia updates since then so it might have been fixed in the meantime, I don't know, I didn't try whitelisting IB as it still performs just fine without JIT.

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@AlexC

I don't understand what ibrowse offers over odyssey that you would use it 99% of the time.