the future of amiga is its past. very likely there will be still genuine amiga machines in working condition, some sort of replicas, be it fpga and available emulators when the so called ng solutions are long forgotten. slight chance that aros or mos will somehow make it to endure that long, aros because its open, mos because they suprisingly still have something going on. but what concerns os4 i can hardly imagine a less rewarding hobby to invest into. one really needs to be desperate i guess.

edit: typo

Last edited by wawa on 24-Sep-2014 at 08:49 AM.

@hotrod

"Commodore saw it"

From Petro's speech last weekend:
-Amiga sales was ok when commodore losses with PCs made the company bankrupt
-Amiga was also profitable when Escom PC business made the company bankrupt
-Amiga was also profitable when Gateway got message from Gates to pull the Amiga plug

Other than that. Amiga has hope to live as nice niche. Anything bigger is very hard. Better live with the reality and try to improve things here and there AND TO HAVE FUN with what we have.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

i cant help it, but this petro sounds pretty like spreading myths, people like to hear..

Commodores demise was due to their venture in the PC market.
Commodore went for HP PA-RISC for the new amigas, as I recal the AAA was supposed to use HP PA-RISC.
The Phase5 PPC cards were ment as a stepping stone for future PPC motherboards, this was decided before Phase5 made the PPC cards, unfortunatly only Phase5 could deliver.

It's good that x86 made it to 64 bit some years ago, but the 604 ppc was 64 bit from the beginning, so in that sense, some amigas was 64 bit in 1997.

So the decision to go RISC was made when Commodore was still around.

Besides PPC is not dead, contrary to "common" beliefs

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@Wawa

when Commodore got in trouble the first step was to drop the PC development and production so Amiga propably was profitable. As far as I know the C64 was the cash cow in the company and saved them more than one time. Unfortunately they paid lots of money to useless managers but had no real idea how to survive and what to do and sell in future.

@topic
If I remember right was VGA the "killer" for amiga because it offered more colors than amiga (even though it needed some time to become widespread). I just read that it was introduced 1987 so Commodore should have been warned but at that time they only saw Atari as competition and underestimated the development on the PC market. Regarding PPC, in the mid 90s it could be seen as a sensible choice, 8 years later it was not the case anymore. Despite of this both Hyperion and MorphOS team concentrated everything 100% on it, Apple did not. So they obviously have set on the wrong horse and lost. Now we have 2014 and the question is where to go. 68k can survive as a niche in form of either emulation or fast FPGA based hardware. MorphOS might manage to change ISA even though I think they have not decided yet (if I interpret the comments correctly) and it could be that they stay on PPC. AmigaOS is in the worst position, they have to pay for development and are in a downward spiral because the shrinking user base means shrinking income and shrinking income means even less money for development. And it is known that parts of the OS are licensed. I do not know the contracts but I would guess that many components are only licensed for PPC, making a ISA change would mean licensing it for the new ISA or reprogramming it (both costs additional money). And that Trevor invests in new PPC hardware (a costly and longterm project). He would certainly not do that if there would be only the slightest discussion about ISA change. Also many of the AmigaOS contributors are hardcore PPC fans.

So in short: AmigaOS ("Amiga" how it is called and seen by some) will stay on expensive PPC hardware (exception of classic on WinUAE now). People should accept that or use one of the existing alternatives that are all progressing very fast.

@Yssing

which desktops use PPC? Which notebooks use PPC? Tablet/Smartphones are mostly ARM nowadays. As far as I know it is used (still) in some game consoles (even though the trend goes to Intel there too). It is used in the embedded market and for power-hungry servers (IBM). The problem is the first are not good enough, the second are too expensive.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 24-Sep-2014 at 09:34 AM.

@Yssing

Some clitches:
-"AAA was supposed to use HP PA-RISC" I think it was Hombre that was going to use dual PA-RISC.
-"604 ppc was 64 bit from the beginning" PPC architecture might have been designed to be 64bit since the beginning, but 604 is 32bit chip. (620 was the designed 64bit version of that time)

@OlafS25

We "only" need someone to implement cheap board for PPC market.

Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Sep-2014 at 09:36 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@pavlor

I know, I have it running (but lacks memory)

@KimmoK

Good luck with the search :)

You have Trevor as the investor, if there would be a chance he would have certainly already started it. I think I read somewhere that they dropped any plans because any solution would have been expensive and underpowered. The perfect Amiga hardware

BTW that would always be the case when you develop custom hardware in small numbers. The only chance would be to support mass produced standard hardware but there is none in the PPC market. At least not for desktops (only for embedded solutions).

Last edited by OlafS25 on 24-Sep-2014 at 09:45 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 24-Sep-2014 at 09:43 AM.

@KimmoK

I have done some benchmarks so as long as you only use one core both G5 and X1000 are still competitive (even though the latter is a little expensive :) ).

As I already wrote I do not think that the hardware (or drivers) are the main problem now. The main problem in my view is how far behind is the platform in software development, we lack extensive online help, professional tools, RAD, class libraries that make it easier for outsiders to start development. At the moment you need a lot of knowledge to start on it, that might make it interesting for some but for most developer outside it is a showstopper.

That is the reason why I want to take part in the Free Pascal development. There is now even a 68k version, there are several developers now active there and the goal is to support crossplatform development (at least for 68k, AROS X86 and MorphOS). I am myself using Pascal already for development so this is a interesting project to me. I hope I can manage to develop some kind of class library on it.

Also it would be great to have Lazarus as RAD tool on Amiga (Opensource and based on Free Pascal).

Last edited by OlafS25 on 24-Sep-2014 at 10:06 AM.

I think that the sole decision to stick to PPC is what ruined Amiga's future. If we had Amiga OS4.1 for x86 today running natively (not WinUae) it would mean:

1. A cheap option for using Amiga OS
2. All of a sudden way more people can run Amiga OS on their machines
3. CHEAP
4. A lot of open source software available ready to be ported
5. Many more developers because they don't have to buy an expensive machine

I think that money invested in the X1000 should have gone towards:

1. Porting Amiga OS 4 to x86, and buying a license to do so if needed
2. Commission new, Amiga specific software (why do we need an Amiga if most new software is Linux ports?)

I wish the Amiga a nice future, in fact that I am keeping an eye on Acube's Sam460CR board (will buy it if it is "cheaper" enough). I have been following Amiga boards for more than 10 years and it seems that interest in Amiga OS4 is dwindling to a halt. In fact, there is much more interested in Amiga 500 and A1200 machines (because (a) way cheaper and (b) games). A very sad situation that I think it is only a matter of a couple of years before all is over.

I hope that MorphOS does get an x86 release.

Last edited by Everblue on 24-Sep-2014 at 10:12 AM.

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@hotrod

AOS in any flavour is doomed by virtue of the fact that both the hardware and software are so dated, the hardware is not powerful enough to entice developers to port or create software in order to make using an Amiga productive by todays standards.

I can not foresee myself bothering to read my emails in AmigaOS or MorphOS on my Pegasos 2, I can't do video editing, simultaneous multitrack audio creation, use a modern office suite, or modern web browsing at a decent speed and some websites just can't be view as they were intended.

I for one wish that the AmigaOS website would cease advertising that AmigaOS has Timberwolf for "full internet browsing" and using terms like "modern" it is simply not true. Even Odyssey on all flavours of Amiga, although in comparison destroys Timberwolf still struggles to deliver a modern "it just works" experience as you enjoy on your PC.

You have to approach Amiga whatever the "flavour" as a retro experience not an alternative to what you can do with the latest hardware and software technology.

I tend to wonder why Hyperion bothered all those years ago to fight in court to win ownership of an IP like AmigaOS only to let it stagnate to the place it is today, I also wonder why they continue to, and I use the term loosely, "develop" it even today and to what end?

I use to be excited about all things AmigaOS but now I just can't see myself buying new hardware to run an operating system I can't be productive with. It seems my Pegasos 2 is becoming so dated now because it can't use one of the new GFX boards and the latest AmigaOS software for AmigaOS 4.1 leverages these boards so a time will come where turning the Pegasos 2 on to run Amiupdate will be pointless.

Your question how can they survive? Well I don't foresee there ability to survive because if Hyperion and A-eon can not provide a system and OS that enables the end user to be productive by modern standards then there is no justifiable reason for any person to spend so much money other than simple desire or the joy of a expensive retro experience.

Amiga in any flavour now to me is boring after ten minutes because there is nothing I can do with it once my retro itch has been scratched, and if this is the case how hard would it be to evangelise anyone else to the platform so what future could Amiga possibly have?

So on a positive note there allegedly is a surprise install for us to be released at Amiwest this year, what could it be I wonder? Hopefully it is the cure all for the tales of woe I have just written about.

_________________
Amiga A1200T - TF1260 - R9200 - Indivision AGA MK3
Amiga A500 - PiStorm EMU68
Pegasos 2 G4 - AmigaOS 4.1 FE / MorphOS 3.16

@Everblue

well, yes. if you look at genuine amiga and hardware related sites, these are which remain lively. eab, a1k.. in comparison with aw.net and a.org where daily only a handful threads is being posted into, over there at eab it is still constantly one and a half page. telling, isnt it?

@Everblue

>I think that the sole decision to stick to PPC is what ruined Amiga's future. If we had Amiga OS4.1 for x86 today running natively (not WinUae) it would mean:
>1. A cheap option for using Amiga OS

Only if the supported x86 HW would be a cheap model.

>2. All of a sudden way more people can run Amiga OS on their machines

AROS, Linux, Haiku etc. fail to run on some (or most) of my x86 HW. Why would "AmigaOS" be better?

>3. CHEAP

If produced in high volume.

>4. A lot of open source software available ready to be ported

Wrong. Most often the porting difficulties are not related to ISA/CPu differences.

>I hope that MorphOS does get an x86 release.

If we do not get affordable PPC HW, then they should try to use some x86 product.
(one 100% supported ax86 board is better than 1000 boards half supported (linux way))

@thread
Latest T10xx chips coming from freescale would fit perfectly in low end 200eur HW, like in PPCEfika#2.

Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Sep-2014 at 11:17 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Sep-2014 at 11:02 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@Yogi27

Quote:

I am a bit frustrated with the current situation though. Myself and Graffias have been programming for AmigaOs 4 and needless to say, the documentation and examples is lacking. I had to teach myself from an Amiga C book published in 1986. I have gotten some help from the people here and I am thankful, but we should be making development easier for a new programmer. I feel we need a complete guide (like the Amiga C book from 1986) for the current system, with chapter by chapter explaining everything. As a side note, I would find an new example of something, but it was changed in the SDK and then I have to figure out what the change was (crazy), but I got good looking at library header files.

Now about 2 years ago I was in in the middle of the process to convert about all RKRM-supplied code examples. A tedious process as quite a lot of coding styles are applied. My aim was, and to a degree still is, to convert them to uniformly coded examples, following the current state of the OS.
Some examples are in 68k ASM and have to be converted to C as well as following the current OS's standard. Awkward.
Some examples are obsolete and need not be converted. Instead they have to be fully replaced by brandnew examples, again following current state of the OS. Awkward again.
Some examples even contain an error (or two...) or apply questionable and dubious practices: yikes! They have to be replaced by proper ones following the current state of the OS after figuring out what the heck they are about and whether they are suitable for conversion or should be discarded because of obsoletism.
After conversion and checking for style consistency they need to be tested, documentation upgraded, etc., etc.

The same I tried to do for various other packages of examples and courses (Amiga University?) I encountered on the internet, in the mean time writing my own little pile of Amiga programs.

Why did I stop? Well, ehm, my micro broke down...

When I'm back on an Amiga, I'll surely continue this endeavour. Just stay tuned, but don't hold your breath.

OldFart

_________________
More then three levels of indigestion and you're scroomed!

>>1. A cheap option for using Amiga OS
>Only if the supported x86 HW would be a cheap model.

I am sure it would be substantially cheaper than an X1000

>>2. All of a sudden way more people can run Amiga OS on their machines
>AROS, Linux, Haiku etc. fail to run on some (or most) of my x86 HW. Why would "AmigaOS" be better?

That's true, depends on drivers supported I guess.

>>I hope that MorphOS does get an x86 release.
>If we do not get affordable PPC HW, then they should try to use some x86 product.
(one 100% supported ax86 board is better than 1000 boards half supported (linux way))

I agree, but either MOS developers are doing something they are not telling us, or they are just not interested in x86 development.

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@Everblue

Quote:

I think that money invested in the X1000 should have gone towards: 1. Porting Amiga OS 4 to x86, and buying a license to do so if needed

x86 Has NO appeal to me. Had Amiga been converted to x86, I'd not be writing this (but then again, this post or even thread would not have existed...). Maybe I'd been dabblin a bit with Linux, but it has darn little attraction to me.

Quote:

2. Commission new, Amiga specific software (why do we need an Amiga if most new software is Linux ports?)

You can still commission new, Amiga specific software. This is regardless of the underlying architecture. However, don't expect it to materialise before X-mass of whatever year.
Linux ports have brought us many good packages, but I agree with you that they are not developed with Amiga in mind. Often the sheer filesize of the archive is an indicator.

Quote:

I hope that MorphOS does get an x86 release.

Why? what would that bring us? An Amiga-awareness of the masses? I'm sorry to say and by no means is this meant to belittle the Morphos endeavour, but has Morphos made exceptional inroads into the crowds now that it supports a variety of PPC-based Apple computers?
x86 Works no miracles here. I dare say the landscape of x86 looks very different over 5 years. ARM will work its way up from a very low end just like the x86 PC did 30 years ago. If anything a transition or parallel developement to ARM I could justify as the architecture comes very cheap nowadays and is relatively new in the non mobile phone realm.

OldFart

_________________
More then three levels of indigestion and you're scroomed!

@OldFart

Why are you caring about the ISA so much? If all your software would work on it where is the problem? Back in the days I was a fanatic X86 hater too but that is now a long time ago. I use Computer every day and I do not care what hardware it uses. ARM is certainly nice and has future but nobody can say what will be in 5 years. If I have to decide for one platform I would bet on the platforms with the most money on it and that is still X86/X64. I never understood why many in the community still have problems with X86.

Assuming that AmigaOS would be ported to X64 what would be different for you?

One thing that would be always different of course after ISA change (be it X86/X64 or ARM) would be 68k integration.

"x86 Has NO appeal to me"

Explain that because I really do not understand it

I heared that from others too, Aros did not attract the masses even though it runs on X86 so AmigaOS or MorphOS on X86 would fail too. I do not share this view. Aros has failed to attract the amiga crowd because of certain reasons (not hardware related) and it was not good enough to attract many new users from outside because of missing features (but again not hardware related)

Urgently needed is better software development support.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 24-Sep-2014 at 12:11 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 24-Sep-2014 at 12:10 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 24-Sep-2014 at 12:05 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 24-Sep-2014 at 12:04 PM.

"x86 Has NO appeal to me. Had Amiga been converted to x86, I'd not be writing this (but then again, this post or even thread would not have existed...). Maybe I'd been dabblin a bit with Linux, but it has darn little attraction to me."

I don't understand why the chipset should make a difference to the end user? I don't care about what kind of CPU I have, but rather, if it is able to run Amiga OS4.1

"You can still commission new, Amiga specific software. This is regardless of the underlying architecture. However, don't expect it to materialise before X-mass of whatever year. "

I guess you get what you pay for. Increasing the potential user base = more software sales = more money.

"Why? what would that bring us? An Amiga-awareness of the masses? I'm sorry to say and by no means is this meant to belittle the Morphos endeavour, but has Morphos made exceptional inroads into the crowds now that it supports a variety of PPC-based Apple computers?"

No, because PPC based Apple computers are ancient. On the other hand many people got MorphOS machines because it is affordable when compared to a Sam460 or X1000. I have no problem if MorphOS do what the Amiga 4.1 folks don't. Obviously, the "if" carries a lot of weight in this context.

"x86 Works no miracles here. I dare say the landscape of x86 looks very different over 5 years. ARM will work its way up from a very low end just like the x86 PC did 30 years ago. If anything a transition or parallel developement to ARM I could justify as the architecture comes very cheap nowadays and is relatively new in the non mobile phone realm."

Again, the CPU doesn't really make a difference as long as it is powerful and cheap. If they can do it for ARM, well, I am not going to try and stop them for sure.

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@OlafS25
Quote:

Urgently needed is better software development support.

Exactly.

By the way, honest question.... How well do these Ares Computers I see for sale all the time sell? I never read someone talking about them, unless I am looking in the wrong places.

Last edited by Everblue on 24-Sep-2014 at 12:25 PM.

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