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BigD
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 6-Oct-2014 22:27:34
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Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Aug-2005 Posts: 7307
From: UK | | |
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| @Signal
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I think we should make the jump to ARM today. Of course, since there are no ARM desktop motherboards, there will be no need to port anything to one, a real time and manpower saving. |
It would be a sound insurance policy at this juncture nothing more. That doesn't mean its not worth considering._________________ "Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art." John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios |
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A1200
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 6-Oct-2014 23:24:57
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Elite Member |
Joined: 5-May-2003 Posts: 3087
From: Westhall, UK | | |
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| Who cares about any of this? Amiga died years ago. _________________ Amiga A1200, 3.1 ROMs, Blizzard 1230 MKIV 64MB & FPU, 4GB DoM SSD, Workbench 3.1 |
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BigD
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 6-Oct-2014 23:59:52
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Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Aug-2005 Posts: 7307
From: UK | | |
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| @A1200
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Who cares about any of this? Amiga died years ago. |
You've lost the faith brother? While machines and software is still being shipped the Amiga(One) is still alive. While we're still here talking about it and while we still prefer using the machines to other computers, it's not dead._________________ "Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art." John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios |
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Manu
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 7-Oct-2014 6:37:18
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Super Member |
Joined: 4-Feb-2004 Posts: 1561
From: Unknown | | |
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| @A1200
Sadly you're right. Long ago you could joke about it, but today ... it's much worse so it isn't much of a joke anymore. It's just sad it got to this stage so fast. _________________ AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current, hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie |
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utri007
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 7-Oct-2014 7:09:08
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Super Member |
Joined: 12-Aug-2003 Posts: 1074
From: United States of Europe | | |
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| @Manu
I do not understand this kind of statements, there are people how have NG Amiga and some faith to it, so why to pop up to tell those who are interested that Amiga is dead?
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OlafS25
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 7-Oct-2014 8:04:22
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Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6321
From: Unknown | | |
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wawa
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 7-Oct-2014 8:06:48
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Elite Member |
Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @BigD
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You've lost the faith brother? |
its not a question of faith. |
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KimmoK
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 7-Oct-2014 10:55:33
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Elite Member |
Joined: 14-Mar-2003 Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland | | |
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| @A1200
I anyway prefer the current state over years ago state. There's more HW and SW available than early 2000, I think.
But yes, Amiga looks more dead than in y1993.
Other things that are better: -latest AmigaOS is free from legacy HW ties -alternative AmigaLikeOSs also exist and run also on other CPUs than PPC
So we are not as tied to the dead horse as before. Last edited by KimmoK on 07-Oct-2014 at 10:58 AM.
_________________ - KimmoK // For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA // // Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer? |
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NutsAboutAmiga
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 7-Oct-2014 12:26:04
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Elite Member |
Joined: 9-Jun-2004 Posts: 12795
From: Norway | | |
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| @KimmoK
More of AmigaOS4.1 is mostly C/C++ code and might be ported if this will be only way to move forward, we are not there yet, Freescale and IBM have not quited Power/PowerPC, and its not end of life just yet.
Who knows maybe fewer company’s will help increased production volumes at remaining PowerPC producers (IBM/Freescale). Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Oct-2014 at 09:28 PM. Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Oct-2014 at 09:27 PM.
_________________ http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/ Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS |
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Chuckt
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 7-Oct-2014 19:50:58
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Regular Member |
Joined: 22-Feb-2008 Posts: 445
From: Unknown | | |
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| @BigD
Quote:
BigD wrote: @Signal
Quote:
I think we should make the jump to ARM today. Of course, since there are no ARM desktop motherboards, there will be no need to port anything to one, a real time and manpower saving. |
It would be a sound insurance policy at this juncture nothing more. That doesn't mean its not worth considering. |
Who is going to build it? No one really has the rights.
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Barana
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 8-Oct-2014 11:52:42
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Cult Member |
Joined: 1-Sep-2003 Posts: 843
From: Straya! | | |
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Be good if a reference board could be chosen. |
In no way is this meant s aabuse against the author,
Havent we learnt yet from the teron mistake that dev boards have often nests of bugs in them? or, thiking again even our production boarda have some bugs too.........barana's voice fades to black as he realises he just blunted his sharp point.. :) _________________ Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
I serve King Jesus. What/who do you serve? |
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Hypex
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 8-Oct-2014 13:02:35
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Elite Member |
Joined: 6-May-2007 Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia | | |
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| @WolfToTheMoon
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So that is not a problem. |
Then that just leaves one particular board that can be customised in small quantities to which OS4 needs to be ported. So, a cheap ARM board will probably need UBoot firmware, drivers for on board hardware and be reproducible months after it goes on the market. By the time OS4 is ported to it, it will be obsolete and not reproducible anymore, but it will most likely still be cheaper and more powerful than anything before it!
So, it's not exactly x86 or x64, but it still poses the same problems.
And this is without looking into the hardware companies producung hardware for the Amiga market.Last edited by Hypex on 09-Oct-2014 at 01:04 PM.
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Hypex
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 8-Oct-2014 13:07:59
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Elite Member |
Joined: 6-May-2007 Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia | | |
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| @Barana
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Havent we learnt yet from the teron mistake that dev boards have often nests of bugs in them? |
Well all the boards we have are produced for us. So we can't exactly escape that. But I was talking about boards that are stable, without major bugs, that are prooven. There's also a beta testing program that should help.
Off the shelf hardware still has its problems as per my last post. |
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Rob
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 8-Oct-2014 13:59:48
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Elite Member |
Joined: 20-Mar-2003 Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales | | |
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| @Hypex
The x86 obsolescence argument is invalid. You simply choose to port to an extended lifecycle board instead of a mainstream one.
Jetway do a good range extended life cycle boards.
You can have an i7 mini itx board with everything you'd need for a desktop system with planned lifecycle until Q4 2018.
http://www.jetwaycomputer.com/NF9J.html
While higher priced than mainstream boards it is still only a fraction of the price of an X1000 at €205.64 including VAT in single quantities.
http://www.logicsupply.eu/motherboards/intel-core/nf9j-q87/ |
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Hypex
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 9-Oct-2014 13:09:55
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Joined: 6-May-2007 Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia | | |
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| @Rob
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The x86 obsolescence argument is invalid. |
Well actually I was tallking about an ARM board as the per the discussion.
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Jetway do a good range extended life cycle boards. |
Do they have some where an ARM CPU can be plugged into?
The extended life cycle is an interesting idea but it doesn't seem to match the fast moving PC market.
For our market if we moved to ARM for instance, I think we'd need a customised board with UBoot or the like and an ARM big endian CPU on board. |
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cdimauro
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 9-Oct-2014 21:38:33
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Elite Member |
Joined: 29-Oct-2012 Posts: 3621
From: Germany | | |
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| Quote:
BigD wrote: @Hypex
It's just one supplier so it's not the end of PPC yet but once multi core SMP is finished for AmigaOS |
There'll be no SMP support for AmigaOS(4).
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CodeSmith wrote: @BigD
This is why I think AROS is extremely important to the long term survival of the Amiga. In a few years the only way to run PPC software will be on expensive workstation class machines like the X1000, and that will mean only a very small group of people will write new amiga software - imagine if back in 1990 CBM cancelled the A500 when they launched the A3000 and said that's the only model we'll be selling from now on. AROS has the potential to prevent that; when (not if) PPC stops being a viable home computer platform, we will have at least 68K, ARM and x86 to choose from for the future. |
I fully agree.
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BigD wrote: @A1200
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Who cares about any of this? Amiga died years ago. |
You've lost the faith brother? While machines and software is still being shipped the Amiga(One) is still alive. While we're still here talking about it and while we still prefer using the machines to other computers, it's not dead. |
He's correct: Amiga died, and RIP.
What's still here is only the o.s., both with legitimate and not legitimate successors.
BTW: having faith is questionable. Having faith on hardware and/or software doesn't make any sense.
Quote:
utri007 wrote: @Manu
I do not understand this kind of statements, there are people how have NG Amiga and some faith to it, so why to pop up to tell those who are interested that Amiga is dead?
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Maybe because it's the crude reality? Amiga IS dead. And having people thinking that it's not doesn't change what is a FACT.
What's now is something different. Even absolutely, completely different from an hardware point-of-view. The heritage is represented by the o.s. only.
Last but not least, another fact is that the PowerPC family is died for the desktop market. YEARS ago. It survived in the embedded / router market, and it's getting worse and worse, being supplanted by ARM and have x86. There are no (concrete) NEW PowerPC (micro-)architectures scheduled even by Freescale, which is the ultimate PowerPC vendor.
This is the reality, either you like or not. |
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OlafS25
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 9-Oct-2014 22:04:32
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Elite Member |
Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6321
From: Unknown | | |
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| @cdimauro
I have a (slightly) different view. If you say "Amiga is dead" what do you mean? Amiga in classic sense (68k) is dead? Or Amiga "NG" based on PPC is dead? I personal would say the try to move the old code base to modern hardware has failed because both MorphOS and AmigaOS (and AROS) were too late to keep most developers on board. When I searched for interesting 68k software it was obvious that there was a lot of activity even after the bankruptcy of Commodore till about 1998 and then it slowed down condsiderably so I would say many developers left the platform at that time. When MorphOS and AmigaOS became reality years later it was already too late. "NG" tried to move OS and the software base to new hardware but that does not work without the developers. Today we have the chance to do the opposite, move the software base to new hardware, not by emulation but by real hardware based on FPGA. So I would not sign "Amiga is dead" but "the concept of NG has failed" instead we should change strategy. I am not strictly against modernizing but what would we get if we have f.e. a new AmigaOS based on 64bit, SMP, MP but no software running. Software defines what people can do, OS and hardware are only the base. Even a hypermodern AmigaOS (or AROS/MorphOS) would not be better than Linux or Windows but without a comparable software base. In my view is the future the past, the huge software base that many other platforms not have and I do not talk about some old games or graphic applications but (from the sight of a developer) about high optimized libraries, tons of compilers/languages and many applications where we still have source codes. If we all have to give that up just to get memory protection I say we would do a big mistake. |
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cdimauro
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 9-Oct-2014 22:17:36
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Elite Member |
Joined: 29-Oct-2012 Posts: 3621
From: Germany | | |
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| @OlafS25: there was no Amiga NG and not even "Classic" Amigas. I don't know you, but I had an Amiga 2000 and an Amiga 1200: no "Classic"! What came after Commodore bankrupt is some post-Amiga stuff, and that's the correct label to use IMO.
The PowerPC binary was a mistake even when they decided to port the Amiga o.s. to this architecture. So, you can imaging what I think about the current situation...
Currently the post-Amiga community lacks three things: a good and cheap hardware, an o.s. with modern features, and software. Do you think that it have any chance to improvements in any of these 3 areas? I don't.
As you know, I really like the 68K, and I see as a good thing the current 68K projects. I think they'll give the possibility to improve the Amiga experience without spending so much. Because, as you already stated, the old 68K software base is HUGE, and there's still A LOT of people that like and use it.
But it'll not change the whole picture: the post-Amiga market is a niche which has not chance to get concrete expansion.
Sad but true, if you think at the glorious Commodore days... |
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OlafS25
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 9-Oct-2014 22:28:52
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Elite Member |
Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6321
From: Unknown | | |
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| @cdimauro
I only used "classic" because it is often used in discussions
"Modern features" what do you mean by that exactly? I think even if we would be on the same level as Windows or Linux or Mac we would still not be able to compete. So we should go the "Raspberry" route, have a nice fun platform that will certainly not become mainstream again but could attract new users and developers again. I am not as pessimistic as you there but of course nobody knows. But at least the chance is higher.
We should forget the "glorious past", that is history instead we should try to reverse the trend of a ageing and shrinking community. I see a chance there. |
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cdimauro
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Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC Posted on 9-Oct-2014 22:35:05
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Elite Member |
Joined: 29-Oct-2012 Posts: 3621
From: Germany | | |
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| @OlafS25: I mean SMP, memory protection, resource tracking, and 64-bit support.
I know that I was too much pessimistic, but honestly I don't see anything better.
P.S. I know that "classic" is used often, but it's an invention and an historically false creation of the post-Amiga community. FOr this reason, it's better to don't use it, and call the thing with their real names or labels. |
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