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/  Forum Index
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      /  Deluxe Paint V - 256 Colour Palette & Screenmode Issues
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BigD 
Re: Deluxe Paint V - 256 Colour Palette & Screenmode Issues
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 23:51:34
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3764
From: UK

@broadblues

The S-VHS conversion quality is good enough and doesn't lose much compared to the old VHS video cassettes I've been converting previously. I have the kit to make the animation in the way I've already described and won't be buying Personal Paint unless I'm convinced it is as good at animation as Deluxe Paint (light panel etc). I don't have a modern movie editor other than iMovie and although stringing the exported .PNG files is possible syncing the animation with the music will be more of a nightmare than at present. I think if anything your way of doing it will lead to the purchase of at least two new programs in order to make it happen your way Might not be worth it for what will be a a local talent show.

Is it really worth buying Personal Paint as a glorified RTG ANIM player?

Last edited by BigD on 13-Sep-2015 at 11:57 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 13-Sep-2015 at 11:53 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Deluxe Paint V - 256 Colour Palette & Screenmode Issues
Posted on 14-Sep-2015 0:02:38
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3764
From: UK

@Thread

Thanks for everyone's advice and by the sounds of it I'm doing a lot of things the hard way, not including attempting to use a classic Amiga in the first place However, if I could solve the Vsync problem with my Picasso IV outputing the ANIM I think I'd be happy or do you all think that Personal Paint would play it more smoothly using a 8-bit B/G/R 640 x 480 P96 screen mode?

Last edited by BigD on 14-Sep-2015 at 12:02 AM.

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broadblues 
Re: Deluxe Paint V - 256 Colour Palette & Screenmode Issues
Posted on 14-Sep-2015 0:50:35
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4106
From: Portsmouth England

@BigD

I'm not advertising PPaint or ImageFX, you can get both em for free, if you don't want to buy the latest versions, I'm just pointing out that there a better and easier way to do what you want.
with out loss of quality and struggling with P96 syncing issues and stuff you could do it the "right way" instead.

Ppaint can even output it as animgif which can keep any variable frame times you may be using. Not sure if iMovie import animgif or not but it's more likely than anim5

So no need to roll eyes at me






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BigD 
Re: Deluxe Paint V 'Set Frame Palette': How do you use this 'New' Feature?
Posted on 11-Jan-2017 2:01:18
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3764
From: UK

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote:
@Hypex

Quote:
I'd suggest that that you may need to remap the images so the palettes can match.


That's exactly why you use a fixed/locked palette.

#6


How do you do this in Deluxe Paint V? Even using the Collectors v.3.5 256 colour palette it looks awful!!

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BigD 
Re: Deluxe Paint V 'Set Frame Palette': How do you use this 'New' Feature?
Posted on 11-Jan-2017 2:13:14
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3764
From: UK

@Thread

I'm beginning to think animating in 256 colours is too restrictive! Maybe I need a Vampire2 to animate with the 24-bit backing store checked on permanently?

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Amigo1 
Re: Deluxe Paint V 'Set Frame Palette': How do you use this 'New' Feature?
Posted on 11-Jan-2017 5:53:57
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1367
From: Cork Ireland

@BigD

Maybe you need an Apollo. Or maybe a NG Amiga with Ppaint 7 (which is included in the new AmigaOne)

Or the cheapest way may be to buy PC, 'couple of years old (20) with Win XP (kind of free), just install some free animation software or AmigaForever (49 I think), disconnect it from the internet, don't install any new software and you might be ok without the system becoming slow for some time.
Bad then you want have color restriction on the Xp animation software or a very fast Amiga Classic within AmigaForever.

I'd go for the NG Amiga! ;)

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BigD 
Re: Deluxe Paint V 'Set Frame Palette': How do you use this 'New' Feature?
Posted on 11-Jan-2017 12:19:27
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3764
From: UK

@Amigo1

Thanks for the suggestion about buying new hardware but I've had a brainwave! I think the issue is my workflow in Deluxe Paint. I think the idea with locking the brush palettes with the picture palette should work as follows:

Load picture which if detailed should contain ALL the colours you plan to animate with (including MOST of the brush colours you'll be using. This is especially important for brushes with a transparent background that you will be rotating, moving resizing etc. If the most used/transparent section brushes look rubbish, enable the 24-but backing store in screen format, stamp the brush on an unseen part of the picture (I try and animate on backgrounds bigger than the screen). Then once stamped, untick the backing store option in Screen Format and save the new converted 256 colour image.

Then, in the Menus select:

Colour > Palette > Save - thereby saving the colour palette of the picture

Load each brush in turn. Load the 256 colour picture palette you saved and then save the brush with the 'corrected' or 'locked' palette.

Is this what I should be doing? It came to me this morning. I'll test it shortly.

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BigD 
Re: Deluxe Paint V 'Set Frame Palette': How do you use this 'New' Feature?
Posted on 11-Jan-2017 13:25:33
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3764
From: UK

@Thread

I'm also guessing the Colour>Palette>Brush>REMAP feature is part of the solution too!

Yes, it is!!! That is what I needed!!! My detailed brushes look great now!



Problem solved! Shame it took me over a year to figure out but hey

Last edited by BigD on 11-Jan-2017 at 01:26 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Deluxe Paint V 'Set Frame Palette': How do you use this 'New' Feature?
Posted on 11-Jan-2017 15:15:24
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3764
From: UK

@Hypex

Quote:
I'd suggest that that you may need to remap the images so the palettes can match.


So Hypex was on the ball back in October 2014!!!

Shame I couldn't work out the workflow from that comment. It seems so obvious now

It hasn't stopped me animating in that time but it looks like me messing around with the 24-bit backing store option was a red herring

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BigD 
Re: Deluxe Paint V 'Set Frame Palette': How do you use this 'New' Feature?
Posted on 11-Jan-2017 15:23:03
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3764
From: UK

@Hypex

Quote:
Anuway I see two ways around keeping your palettes. You can load your palette in and load up your brush and select to remap it.


Wow, you even tried to spoon feed me a year on in Sep 2015! I'm so sorry that I didn't really get the whole saving/loading palette thing or REMAPPING

You tried to help me and for that I'm greatlful but I guess it's all the more satisfying figuring it out for yourself

It's definitely something that I'll never forget now

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BigD 
Re: Deluxe Paint V - 256 Colour Palette & Screenmode Issues
Posted on 11-Jan-2017 15:27:48
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3764
From: UK

@_Steve_

Quote:

_Steve_ wrote:
@BigD

Usually you just remap the animation frames to the same palette (likewise a brush can have its colours remapped to a fixed palette).

Using a palette as shown by #6, you should be able to remap both the frames of animation and brush to that fixed palette without compromising the look of everything.

I've used the remapping before to fix frames of an animation to a fixed palette as by default each frame had its own colour palette which creates havoc when being used with other things whose palettes are not the same.


Now that I have a better understanding of this, do you mean I should 'REMAP' both the background AND the brush to the Collector V3.5 256 colour palette and hence keep everything standardised? Surely a different palette for each animation would result in better results?

I just thinking that different photo sourced backgrounds will use a vastly different 256 colour ranges once converted to 8bit. If one distinct Anim5 file only uses one distinct background then a custom palette would be better wouldn't it? I suppose once you start threading similar Anim5 files together in Scala/iMovie you might start to hit problems?

Last edited by BigD on 11-Jan-2017 at 03:31 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Deluxe Paint V 'Set Frame Palette': How do you use this 'New' Feature?
Posted on 11-Jan-2017 15:36:22
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8413
From: Greensborough, Australia

@BigD

Quote:
I'm also guessing the Colour>Palette>Brush>REMAP feature is part of the solution too!


LOL. Yes that's what I meant.

I've got the manual. Do you have one? Yes reading paper is funny thing to do when working on a computer.

How many colours is your background? That may be throwing it off.

I do agree per frame palettes should make it better but in any case a matching palette is needeed.

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BigD 
Re: Deluxe Paint V 'Set Frame Palette': How do you use this 'New' Feature?
Posted on 11-Jan-2017 16:10:41
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3764
From: UK

@Hypex

Quote:
I've got the manual. Do you have one? Yes reading paper is funny thing to do when working on a computer.


Yeah, I've got a DP IV and DP V manual but for whatever reason this didn't make sense to me

Thanks for your advice even so.

Quote:
How many colours is your background? That may be throwing it off.


A lot as it's converted from a digital photo! I'm also combining it with a lot of brushes. I am attempting to do a tribute to the light show projected onto the stage background of the gig at the end of the Jack Black film 'The School of Rock'. It's only a small bit of the 4 minute animation but it is important that all the palettes match up as there are so many brushes involved!

The end product should be fun though

Last edited by BigD on 11-Jan-2017 at 04:13 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 11-Jan-2017 at 04:12 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Deluxe Paint V 'Set Frame Palette': How do you use this 'New' Feature?
Posted on 12-Jan-2017 14:34:27
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8413
From: Greensborough, Australia

@BigD

Usually I just look up what I need to know in the index and read that relevant section or even even whole chapter.

Quote:
A lot as it's converted from a digital photo! I'm also combining it with a lot of brushes. I am attempting to do a tribute to the light show projected onto the stage background of the gig at the end of the Jack Black film 'The School of Rock'. It's only a small bit of the 4 minute animation but it is important that all the palettes match up as there are so many brushes involved!


Sounds cool! :-8

That would pressure the palette needing to downsize from 24-bit colour and match your brushes as well. Are the brushes complex or have simpler palette?

I wonder if HAM8 mode would better for you? Sure it reduces colour depth to 18-bit and introduces fringing. But it also has a 64 colour 24-bit base palette to work with and more headroom for colours. Speed may be a factor if DPaint struggles to render the palette.

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BigD 
Re: Deluxe Paint V 'Set Frame Palette': How do you use this 'New' Feature?
Posted on 12-Jan-2017 15:05:42
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3764
From: UK

@Hypex

Quote:
That would pressure the palette needing to downsize from 24-bit colour and match your brushes as well. Are the brushes complex or have simpler palette?


The palette is showing some evidence of stress following the conversion from 24-bit. The most noticeable artifacts were a weird shade of purple used instead of what should have been a green before. Using some 'pick up brush' techniques I was able to pick up a similar texture that was already on the picture of the same object but just more brightly lit and then went back and retouched the shadows picking up a brush off the artifacted version of the picture but only picking up the shadowed (greeny) area. It now looks fine again and with the same multiple brush friendly palette. I've got a feeling that I'm on the edge of what's possible with 256 colours, a photo realistic background and using some fairly complex and colourful brushes. Saying that the program still moves at a fair speed again now as I'm able to REMAP my bushes and work in 256 colours again no problem! Thanks for talking it through with me

I'll now be able to hold off a Vampire2 purchase until an AGA version is available

Last edited by BigD on 12-Jan-2017 at 03:08 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Deluxe Paint V 'Set Frame Palette': How do you use this 'New' Feature?
Posted on 12-Jan-2017 15:44:24
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3764
From: UK

@Hypex

Quote:
Speed may be a factor if DPaint struggles to render the palette.


Yeah, I'm inclined to steer clear of HAM as it slows things down for animation though it would be fine for a still pictures. The only feature I haven't made use of that probably would help is the 'dithering' option when converting a picture from 24-bit. This would probably reduce the artifacts considerably. However, due to my manual workflow that I've got used to I've been stamping down key brushes on white rectangular hidden areas of the background before conversion and then picking up the brushes again post 24-bit to 256 colour conversion! Dithering would have messed this up! Because I was re-picking up the brushes off the converted picture I didn't want it dithered as I needed the brushes backgrounds to be pure white (no random dots of nearly white) to allow the creation of a transparent edge!

It was a complex way of doing it but was in fact a good way of remapping both the brush and background palettes to a common previously unspecified palette! Now that I understand the built in REMAP feature I'd probably be too lazy to do that again. Ironically though it has given me a pretty good background picture while keeping the brushes true to their original forms. This sounds like such a faff in retrospect but it allowed me to continue animating in the last couple of years despite this gaping whole in my DP knowledge!

Last edited by BigD on 12-Jan-2017 at 03:49 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 12-Jan-2017 at 03:48 PM.

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