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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Hyperion Entertainment is not bankrupt
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ne_one 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 5:57:29
#1101 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 731
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

Quote:
I'm not saying it's impossible, but try explaining that to a lawyer.


Let's be realistic: there are two parties that have material interest in the IP and Hyperion has one foot in the grave and Amiga has its head jammed up its butt.

And would any knowledge acquired through this whole debacle be of any real value?

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itix 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 7:46:28
#1102 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@cgutjahr

That is not true. Ex-OS4 developer can contribute to other projects, including other Amiga OS projects.

If Hyperion is gone NDA is void and null. Developers they can speak anything they want and work anywhere they want.

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Bugala 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 10:25:14
#1103 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2007
Posts: 561
From: Finland

@itix

Not really knowing what I am saying now, but if i have understrood right, then bankruptcy doesnt yet nullify the NDA, it depends what happens in bankruptcy if it gets nullified or not, plus of course how was the NDA written.

For Basically I guess the NDA could move to another company during bankruptcy some way. Obvious one being that someone purchases Hyperion completely from bankruptcy nest (or whatever they call that in english), and then someone could perhaps buy the rights and deals or something like that, and that way NDA might transfer too. But not sure of that.

And I did notice you used more vague term "hyperion is gone", but thought to point this out as bakruptcy anyway.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 10:54:00
#1104 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 814
From: Unknown

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote:
@Nameless

One important reason for the choice of ppc over x86 was a strong fear of piracy.


I have seen many laughable arguments from those guys over the years about why PPC and not x86, this is just one of them!

Anyway, Hyperion had nothing to do with this, it all happened way before their time. Decisions were made back at Amiga Technologies and Phase 5 days and the first step was the PowerUP CPU cards for Amiga. The by far most important reason was probably endianness, the PPC made it possible to introduce a new ISA into the existing Amiga ecosystem. And back then the future for PPC was bright and shiny and was backed by three of the largest companies in the industry. PPC was the best possible choice and thanks to the PowerUP developers could compile Amiga PPC binaries which over time resulted in a small but not insignificant PPC application base. When systems like MorphOS and OS4 much later appeared they simply followed the path the platform had already entered, the PPC was still powerful and the future still looked bright, and thanks to the endianness it was possible to simply translate Amiga 68k binaries into PPC native ones and continue to use old applications seamlessly and completely transparent without even the applications themselves knowing that they are in fact running on a PPC only system.

But had everyone known then what they know now about the life and death of the PPC for desktop, they would probably had chosen differently.

Last edited by TRIPOS on 19-Mar-2015 at 10:56 AM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 11:12:19
#1105 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 814
From: Unknown

@itix

Quote:

itix wrote:
@cgutjahr

That is not true. Ex-OS4 developer can contribute to other projects, including other Amiga OS projects.

If Hyperion is gone NDA is void and null. Developers they can speak anything they want and work anywhere they want.


Of course NDA's gets null and void if the issuer ceases to exist. But that's not the point, NDA's are not the issue here. The issue is IP infringement and IP contamination.

The OS4 source code is based on/mixed with 3.1 sources. This operating system is owned by a third party, not Hyperion, not "the OS4 developers". The problem is that everyone who has been working on OS4 has been "contaminated" by this IP, they have seen the sources, and if anyone of these would start working on a similar/competing project like AROS or MorphOS they open up for accusations and possibly legal actions from the owners of the operating system (Cloanto). Or to be more clear, it would open up for something like this, only that this time it wouldn't be bullsh!t and FUD from Ben Hermans/Hyperion, it would be true!

If I would be responsible for MorphOS or AROS I would think twice before accepting contributions from former OS4 developers for this reason.

It's of course possible that Cloanto wouldn't be as aggressive as Ben Hermans/Hyperion about this, but the potential problem is there nevertheless, and you never know how the future develops.

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Massi 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 13:19:50
#1106 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 516
From: Rome, Italy

@TRIPOS

As a developer, if ever OS4 gets discontinued, I wouldn' t join MorphOS nor AROS.

There are good alternatives at least for me.

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damocles 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 13:28:30
#1107 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Quote:
If I would be responsible for MorphOS or AROS I would think twice before accepting contributions from former OS4 developers for this reason.


Since AROS is open source, it would be easy for Cloanto to see if there was offending code and have it removed. AROS and Cloanto have enjoyed a solid positive history and I can't see that changing.

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umisef 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 14:05:50
#1108 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1655
From: Melbourne, Australia

@cgutjahr

Quote:
It would be kind of hard to argue that you're now going to work on AROS, but you'll really never use anything you learned while working on the commercial OS that AROS is a clone of.


There are a number of issues here.

Firstly, a lot of what you learn are skills. Skills are yours to keep, use and transfer.

A little more encumber-able is expertise. If you, say, spend a year evaluating factorisation algorithms, you gain expertise. That, too, is yours to keep and use; However, it is not uncommon that you may find yourself faced with a non-compete clause in your contract in which you agree not to use this expertise for a competitor. Such clauses are often unenforceable (depending on jurisdiction), even more so if they come with an unreasonable time limit.

Next is actual knowledge of value. For example, the actual algorithm used to implement bandwidth throttling in a network appliance. This can be protected by patents (not the case for anything AmigaOS), or can be considered a trade secret. Revealing trade secrets, or using them outside the context in which they were (legitimately) learned is bad indeed. However, the thing about trade secrets is that they must, indeed, be secret; If they are publicly known, or could be learned independently without having them explicitly disclosed, they pretty much lose their protection. There isn't much at this level in AmigaOS that isn't known or at least easy to discover.

Last in line is the actual code. That's the only thing covered by copyright (copyright applies to an actual embodiment of an idea; it does not apply to the idea). It shouldn't be too hard to keep oneself from being "overly inspired" by the OS4 code one has seen; And in the case of a dispute, the burden of proof is not on the developer to show that they haven't copied code (how do you prove such a negative, especially when the source for the alleged copy is secret and proprietary?), but rather on the accuser to show that it was done.

So all in all, especially in the context of AmigaOS, this whole "contamination issue" strikes me as a lot of FUD with no real meat behind it. Quite successful FUD, but FUD nonetheless.

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cgutjahr 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 14:07:01
#1109 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 807
From: Unknown

@itix

Quote:

If Hyperion is gone NDA is void and null.

Again, this isn't about NDAs. AROS is basically a reimplementation of AmigaOS. Go look up clean room reverse engineering - if you want to be on the safe side legally, this is how you reimplement other people's code. 'Hiring' somebody who worked on the actual code you're reimplementing completely destroys any chance you have of ever claiming to be a proper, 'clean room' reimplementation.

Ben Hermans might no longer be able to threaten AROS and Cloanto is actually run by decent people - but as somebody already pointed out, you never know what the future looks like - especially in the Amiga scene. It would be a very bad idea to let former OS4 developers join the AROS team, IMHO.

This is a completely theoretical question anyway. The remaining devs are still working on OS4, despite the fact it started to smell like a rotten corpse years ago - they're not going to give up that easily. And if we ever reach the point where further OS4 releases will be impossible, they're just going to walk away and get a new hobby - just like AROS or MorphOS developers would do in a similar situation.

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Massi 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 14:29:42
#1110 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 516
From: Rome, Italy

@All OS4

Never give up, never surrender!


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Boot_WB 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 15:08:17
#1111 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@umisef, cgutjahr

Thanks for expanding and illuminating the real issues there, the blurring of copyright-nda is what I was trying to get at.

@Umisef

Isn't there a generally accepted period in software engineering after which Chinese walls are considered redundant (ie specific knowledge considered faded enough to allow new work to be a 'reimplementation' ) ?

_________________
Troll - n., A disenfranchised former potential customer who remains interested enough to stay informed and express critical opinions.
opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 15:27:15
#1112 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 814
From: Unknown

@umisef (and damocles)

It's true that all aspects of Amiga OS is publicly known, at least at an API level. That's how clean-room Amiga OS implementations like AROS and MorphOS could happen. They are exactly the same Amiga OS API but without sources or other IP owned by third party. But when someone who has been developing an OS component based on this third party owned source code jumps ship and start developing a similar component for a different project, the original IP owner may raise opinions about it. From a copyright legal standpoint it's not only a matter of blatant copy/paste of source code (which would be easy enough to go free from), even derivative work of the copyrighted material is an infringement, and this is where things get legal instead of technological. Derivative work does not necessarily have a single line of the original source code. A novel written in English translated to Spanish does not have many of its (if any) original printed words there. A musical composition made by one musician could be performed in a completely different manner by another artist, sounding very different in every major aspect. The lines can be a bit blurred here (click the link! ), not easily distinguished as black and white, but a complete gray scale, and it's mostly up to how the IP owners and their lawyers presents their case. If a developer goes from OS4 to MorphOS the IP owner could file a lawsuit of infringement against MorphOS, and as proof they could present (for example) the OS 3.1 intuition.library and the MorphOS intuition.library (that does exactly the same thing), pointing out to the court that the developer previously had access to the 3.1 source tree and now works on MorphOS source tree, and then lay down the derivative work card. So the sources doesn't have to be a copy/paste, they won't have to be the same or even similar, if the clean-room implementation has been contaminated by a contaminated developer, the derivative work card could work just as well. Not saying they necessarily would win a lawsuit, not saying that there will be a lawsuit to begin with. Maybe there will be no problem whatsoever. But lawsuits are initiated based on derivative work every day of the year. And there is only one way to be 100% safe, and that is to keep the clean-room 100% clean.


@cgutjahr

Quote:

cgutjahr wrote:

This is a completely theoretical question anyway. The remaining devs are still working on OS4, despite the fact it started to smell like a rotten corpse years ago - they're not going to give up that easily. And if we ever reach the point where further OS4 releases will be impossible, they're just going to walk away and get a new hobby - just like AROS or MorphOS developers would do in a similar situation.


Probably true!

Last edited by TRIPOS on 19-Mar-2015 at 03:44 PM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 15:43:18
#1113 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 814
From: Unknown

@Boot_WB

Quote:

Boot_WB wrote:
@umisef, cgutjahr

Thanks for expanding and illuminating the real issues there, the blurring of copyright-nda is what I was trying to get at.


Again, not NDA. Copyright.


Quote:
@Umisef

Isn't there a generally accepted period in software engineering after which Chinese walls are considered redundant (ie specific knowledge considered faded enough to allow new work to be a 'reimplementation' ) ?


"Generally accepted period"? You mean like some kind of gentlemen agreement? When potential money, power or ownership is involved?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries%27_copyright_lengths

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Boot_WB 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 16:46:49
#1114 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@TRIPOS

What do you mean 'again'...? I think you misunderstood.

Clarifying why people would hesitate to work on open source AROS after OS4 (the hypothetical restrictive NDA) was why I'd questioned the efficacy of any such NDA in my earlier post. Obviously without prejudice to legal copyright issues...

Unless one has a Rain-Man like ability to commit entire portions of code to memory, it is quite reasonable for the same person to work on competing solutions after a 'reasonable period' without resorting to Chinese wall methods. Otherwise specialists would be unemployable.

That's using skills/knowledge gained, not reusing copyrighted code, nor taking advantage of trade secrets.

_________________
Troll - n., A disenfranchised former potential customer who remains interested enough to stay informed and express critical opinions.
opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

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itix 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 17:43:40
#1115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@Bugala

If Hyperion ceases to exist as legal entity then NDA is void and null because there is nobody who could sue you. And I should remind that NDA never prevents you going to work for competitor. Non-compete agreement does but in Finland those agreements are valid no more than 12 months (normal is 6 months).

If Hyperion developers did not sign non-compete agreement they are free to contribute to AROS after their contracs are terminated.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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itix 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 17:51:43
#1116 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@TRIPOS

Quote:

The issue is IP infringement and IP contamination.


First of all there is no intellectual property steal from Hyperion. Second, OS4 is contaminated with MorphOS and AROS developers. Third, IP contamination is just BS. Hermans is using this to keep their developers in hostage.

Obviously you can not use trade secrets or copyrighted material or anything like that.

Quote:

If I would be responsible for MorphOS or AROS I would think twice before accepting contributions from former OS4 developers for this reason.


Me too but for other reasons.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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itix 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 18:54:00
#1117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@cgutjahr

Quote:

Go look up clean room reverse engineering - if you want to be on the safe side legally, this is how you reimplement other people's code. 'Hiring' somebody who worked on the actual code you're reimplementing completely destroys any chance you have of ever claiming to be a proper, 'clean room' reimplementation.


Clean room re-implementation has some coolness factor but is not important. Besides there are AmigaOS/AROS/MorphOS developers who already contributed to "competing" projects.

What is left is someone contributes dirty code. Unfortunately dirty code could be from anywhere, not just from competitor. It could be just someone copypasting GLP'ed code to Exec sources and we only find it out 10 years later.

Quote:

It would be a very bad idea to let former OS4 developers join the AROS team, IMHO.


I could not agree more. You could get partition setup utilities that don't work on any computer


More seriously though why would any OS4 developer submit illegal code to AROS?

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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itix 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 19:14:06
#1118 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@Boot_WB

Quote:

Unless one has a Rain-Man like ability to commit entire portions of code to memory, it is quite reasonable for the same person to work on competing solutions after a 'reasonable period' without resorting to Chinese wall methods. Otherwise specialists would be unemployable.


In Finland if you have not signed non-compete agreement you can start working on competing solutions next day.

If you have signed non-compete agreement you may get fined. However, your new employer can pay your fine. And last but not least here in Finland all non-compete agreements are automatically null and void if you are fired for financial reasons or you quit due to unpaid salaries.

In Belgium it can be different. Maybe there they have one shot developers who must find new profession when they quit/get fired.

Obviously using copyrighted material illegally is illegal everywhere, not just with the competitor...

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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agami 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 20-Mar-2015 1:55:58
#1119 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 484
From: Melbourne, Australia

@most

Sweet merciful Venus. Y'all are talking about this as if the whole Amiga landscape is filled with players like Google, Apple, HP, intel, and such.

Just because these little insignificant companies like to think of themselves as proper companies with big-boy pants and all the legal documentation like NDA's and contracts with Terms & Conditions does not mean we should treat them so.

Finnish law, Belgian law, it's not a bankruptcy, it's not a bankruptcy at all. Translation: There is no monster in my cupboard.

1. Legally, a NDA is not worth the paper it's written on. What it generally means is that if you break the agreement you will not be invited to the "next party". If you want to keep being on the inside then you play by the rules.

2. Whilst there might be different procedures in different countries, bankruptcy still means the same thing the world over; You got no more money.

And if you have debts then there are generally two avenues. The company is reorganised with a new injection of funds from a creditor, or the company is placed into receivership. Whilst the first avenue is a bit better, neither one is good for the bankrupt company. I doubt there are enough assets at Hyperion that would interest a creditor.

3. Non-compete clauses are generally very easily circumvented. And in an open court the definition of 'competition' would have to survive the Reasonable Person test.

Also, non-compete clauses do not apply to freelance resources. You have to be a beneficiary employee. This generally also excludes volunteers, interns, part-time, and casual employees.

4. Copyright only applies to the exact form of the copy. If a developer resists resorting to Copy & Paste functions for the new work then he or she is fine. Even if it went to court, the modifications required to successfully compile it for the other platform like Morphos or AROS would nullify the copyright case.

5. Most companies around the world illegally enter items into contracts. Finding one such inclusion nullifies the entire contract.

6. Belgian law is not in effect world-wide. If AROS and Morphos operated in Belgium then maybe there could be a little bit of concern.

7. Former Hyperion "employees" could be hired by anyone as a consultant or freelancer. E.g. I could hire the Frieden brothers and then have them deployed to work for Morphos.

8. Law suits are very expensive. Even if you are on the winning side of a suit the cost and time consumed by the court system can be such that it has ruined companies that actually won the case. Hyperion technically won the case against Amiga Inc. et al. I say technically because I'm not sure they actually won anything.

The whole court system mostly serves as a deterrent. No one really should wish to go to court, even people who think they are shit-hot lawyers.

9. In any specific case Cloanto would potentially bring to any possible court they would have to prove damages, since none of the Hyperion "employees" have any binding contracts with Cloanto. So if some AmigaOS 4 (quasi OS3) code did appear in Morphos or AROS, Cloanto would have to prove without a doubt that anti-competitive, unethical, or unlawful actions have lead to loss of revenue stream.

And the damages would have to be significant enough so as not to waste the court's time. E.g. Cloanto brings a case where the code breach has lead to loss of $1,500 in the last 12 months and the judge will just throw that case right out. Maybe they take it to some Italian version of a Small Claims Court and the worst ruling would be what? Morphs not allowed to sell Morphos in Itally until they remove the offending code or pay Cloanto $7,500.00 + court fees?

10. If you want to understand how the world works there is a very simple rule: Follow the money.

Money is behind every decision that has been made since even before money was invented. Even decisions you think were influenced by something else, those are just devices all acting on behalf of a money influenced decision. Do you really think Ben Hermans fought Amiga Inc. so fervently because of principle?

In our little Amiga landscape there is not much money moving around. No one really has money to spare for a law suit and there isn't much money to be gained from winning a law suit.

One day very soon we will know what will become of Hyperion. Those that have access to AmigaOS 4.x code will find themselves in a predicament filled with uncertainty because most coders know very little about IP law. They will likely re-sign agreements with the buyer of the code and continue working in silence. The new owner of the code will hopefully do better than Hyperion.

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A1200 
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 20-Mar-2015 18:10:53
#1120 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 2869
From: Westhall, UK

@agami

Lots of words, no one wants to read all that shit mate. Go work for a newspaper if you want to type all that copy up. Soundbites and 10 word sentences are what we are about here, we are fscking thick mothertruckers.

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