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      /  How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
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PosterThread
Signal 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 4-Aug-2015 20:41:53
#1101 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 664
From: USA

@cdimauro

Quote:

so called "local bus"

so called Xorro bus

This is the only way to interface the XCore with the rest of the computer.


The last one is completely wrong, but who are we to question a "so called" expert.

_________________
Tinkering with computers.

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 4-Aug-2015 20:51:05
#1102 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@Signal

Quote:

Signal wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

so called "local bus"

so called Xorro bus

This is the only way to interface the XCore with the rest of the computer.


The last one is completely wrong, but who are we to question a "so called" expert.


From here:

"Xena has 64 of these configurable I/O lines. In the AmigaOne X1000 we have one quarter of these connected to the CPU local bus for direct communication with the system, whilst the other three-quarters are connected directly to pins on the Xorro slot for communication with the outside world."

Expert? Certainly not you, which are far away...

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persia 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 1:17:12
#1103 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2009
Posts: 1059
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

No one doubts that XMOS is a great piece of kit. You can program it to do marvelous things with it as a stand alone system, but the real question that has yet to be answered is what advantage (if any) hardwiring to the X1000 has.

My iMac, which costs about the same as X1000 and comes with a 5K screen built in, has a 4 GHz quad core i7 processor. The operating system nicely balances the load between cores. It's blindingly fast. I can plug an XMOS programming board into it and program the XMOS chip for US$100.

I asked this question years ago, what advantage is there to tieing the XMOS chip to the X1000 motherboard????

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 5:06:43
#1104 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@persia: I don't think that you'll ever get a (technically justified) answer here.

I only read fabulous things around the so called "Xena" in almost 5 years (yes, very long time now, especially for IT stuff), but nothing about what can be concretely made.

The worse, you ask the added value of using it on the X1000, compared to other systems (because it's a discrete component, as I said many times here, and everyone can buy it). Comparison is a "banned" word in the post-Amiga land, because of the fear of the results, that can show the crude reality.

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KimmoK 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 6:55:50
#1105 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@persia

>what advantage (if any) hardwiring to the X1000 has.

-Low latency between the host computer and xcore.
-Ability to build dumb prototype cards for PCIe, when xcore handles part of the debugging & control.
-xena might be able to communicate (+watchdog) the CPU even when USB is already dead, unlike xcore on your Mac.

Nothing earth shaking.
(normally, if xcore is put on motherboard, it most likely is used as programmable bridge chip, as an alternative to FPGA chip. It was said that xcore was put on x1000 motherboard for users to explore, but the idea is still handicapped by the lack of native Amiga tools. Similar to LatticeXP on SAM, IMO.
Old thread about ideas: http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=27379&forum=33#668515 )

( another example of putting HW control chip on desktop capable motherboard: http://www.udoo.org/ )

@thread

It would be cool if AREXX & automation capability would be better used on Amigan offerings. Made as simply usable as note writing on a PC.

IMO: Amiga speech capability is good example of revolutionary standard OS feature of a 1985 computer. A feature that in 2015 is STILL non-existent / not used at all in computing.



update, more about xena/xorro/future.
For x5000 it would be interesting to see a new card + SW bundle on normal X5000 sales package, related to xena: super I/O card with audio in & out.

It should have easy to access ports for normal user to easily experiment with HW control.
They could be in shape of atari joystick port(s) or midi port(s). Also, perhaps it could control some LCD & IR, etc attached to drive bay at the front of a ATX case.
etc...
The SW bundle should include tools to reprogram/control xena outputs.

+example: If xena can be ran totally independently from the main system, I would set xena to listen when I say a key word and then make it to power & start up the main system for me etc.


UPDATE:
I imagine it would be very usefull to have easy to use, easy to program, LOW LATENCY HW interface to use.
Modern days you often end up using USB connected devices and they all are crappy or expensive and crappy. Adding more USB HW to the soup makes the sh*t exponentially expand.
(I must go shoveling more USB sh*t just now, damn!!!!)

Some of my friends bought beaglebone to avoid the USB middleman. 100% unneccessary for x6000 computer that has direct I/O connector for hard realtime HW control. Right?

Last edited by KimmoK on 05-Aug-2015 at 11:44 AM.
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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
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michalsc 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 7:08:10
#1106 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 377
From: Germany

@Dandy

Hi!

In the interesting conversation about amigos and RTOS cdimauro wrote:

Quote:
the Amiga o.s. cannot guarantee the constraints of an RTOS.


And you have replied with a quote from amiganews.de and you have marked one sentence in bold:

Quote:
durch Einschränkungen im Design kann aber keine Garantie für Reaktionsmöglichkeiten in Echtzeit gegeben werden


which says exactly what cdimauro pointed. As a result of design limitations AmigaOS cannot guarantee the constraints of an RTOS. So, what was the point of quoting the site? Providing cdimauro that he was right?

PS arguing that AmigaOS and Amiga machines (classing and NG if you like to draw a line between them) are good for todays use by showing that they were used for *some* tasks many many years ago at NASA is like saying that Ford Modell T is good for todays tasks just because many many years ago it was so commonly used ;) Yes, the time scale is different but keeping technology jump in mind it should be just enough for a fair comparison ;)

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michalsc 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 7:10:51
#1107 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 377
From: Germany

@cdimauro

Quote:
And of course it has some GPIO pins that are also connected to the so called Xorro bus (a modified PCI-Express AFAIK).


Please *never* ever say that. This will help spreading a myth that Xorro has *anything* to do with PCIe. The Xorro bus is not a modified PCI-Express, not at all. It only uses the *mechanical* connector from PCIe, nothing less, nothing more.

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KimmoK 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 7:16:08
#1108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@michalsc

>myth that Xorro has *anything* to do with PCIe.

XORRO slot consist of PCIex1 connector + xcore extension (another connector inline/tandem with the first one).
PCIe x1 should be usable on the slot, ignoring xena for mechanically compatible PCIex1 cards.
(IIRC)

So. For example.
The PCIex1 to PCI adapter seen on this picture:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Tudyl3Pt4k0/UBe8bztTNoI/AAAAAAAAA5M/sV5vmy25HkI/s1600/P1050100.JPG
Should work as well on the xorro slot, ignoring all xcore I/O lines.

Last edited by KimmoK on 05-Aug-2015 at 08:14 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 05-Aug-2015 at 07:19 AM.

_________________
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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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michalsc 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 7:18:48
#1109 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 377
From: Germany

@KimmoK

Quote:
IMO: Amiga speech capability is good example of revolutionary standard OS feature of a 1985 computer. A feature that in 2015 is STILL non-existent / not used at all in computing.


You mean that non-existent feature of OS X available in nearly every single app on this system?

[img]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4cwc1Mhf1-ZcHNVRXI1M2dtQjg/view?usp=sharing[/img]

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KimmoK 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 7:22:02
#1110 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@michalsc

Well, I know windows can handle speech since many years, but still none of the apps or MS OS I use has ever said anything to me.

Nice to know if Mac niche is different. (I thought it is not in this regard, OSX+apps never said anything to me when I had it (5years ago))


@thread

One way to improve things, reduce the misinformation towards potential new user.

This example is from Linux side:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_lhqg_p21k

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Last edited by KimmoK on 05-Aug-2015 at 07:22 AM.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
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michalsc 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 8:48:12
#1111 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 377
From: Germany

@KimmoK

Quote:
XORRO slot consist of PCIex1 connector + xcore extension (another connector inline/tandem with the first one).
PCIe x1 should be usable on the slot, ignoring xena for mechanically compatible PCIex1 cards.
(IIRC)


See, you mix things too. Xorro slot does not consist of PCIe x1 + xcore extension. Xorro slot is pcie x8 connector only. Quoting Steven Solie:

Quote:
The Xorro slot is physically a PCI Express x8 card edge connector but it is not compatible with PCI Express x8 cards. More details on Xena and Xorro are included with the technical reference manual which is not yet publicly available.


Of course, details on the Xorro slot from TRM would be appreciated ;)


For user's convenience there is a separate PCIe x1 slot in line with xorro slot, most likely to save space and give you an ability to use PCIe card in case you do not need xorro at all. Quoting Steven again:

Quote:
Note one PCIe x1 slot is inline with the Xorro slot.


He definitely writes PCIe slot is inline with the Xorro slot, and not that the PCIe part of Xorro slot is in line with Xcore extension, as you've named it.

Reference:

http://solie.ca/files/0e0dea75818f2aab94fd140f2851f697-14.html

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Dandy 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 9:20:39
#1112 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
@Dandy

I cannot convince you if you don't give some clear statement regarding what you want to do with an AmigaOne X1000 and its XCore.



[phantasy mode on]
First I'd like to explore the possibilities in how far the A1X1k/xCORE can be used as 'brain' of an manufacturing cell, including using CAD/CAE for the design process and CAM for controlling CNC machines and robots.

Secondly, I'd like to design, manufacture and build a model steam locomotive (H0 scale) and use the A1X1k/xCORE to control it on the model railway. This would include the transmission of video signals from pen cams on the loco to the monitor, as well as of all the steering commands from the computer to the loco on the model railway.

If the A1X1k/xCORE can live up to the advertised capabilities, it should basically be possible to do all this with an A1X1k...
[/phantasy mode off]

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

The XCore cannot directly access the memory, and for doing this there's a so called "local bus" connected to the CPU, that can be used to access the memory, but it's very slow (15MB/s, if I remember correctly), and I think it'll also long latencies.



You're talking about the memory of the A1X1k - and not about the xCORE's own RAM, aren't you?

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

This is the only way to interface the XCore with the rest of the computer.



I know.

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

And of course it has some GPIO pins that are also connected to the so called Xorro bus (a modified PCI-Express AFAIK).



typically 8 GPIO Pins = 1 GPIO channel (port)

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

With such configuration, it cannot do something interesting, apart some automation.



That might depend on what you think is interesting...


Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

I'm sorry for that. I hope that you solved your problems.



Not yet.
'Solving' the problem might take another few years (including some more surgeries at the Charité in Berlin) - if possible at all...
(but there seems to be a 70% chance that it can be solved)

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

IMO they gave the illusion to the amigans that the machine is like an Amiga with custom hardware, whereas the reality is much different.

Marketing to sell the machines...



Hmmm - I thought from the beginning that this might be an interesting feature.
Back in 1989, when I got my CAD analyst education and did my CAD "homework" on my A 500 at home (including the generation of working CNC programs), I was dreaming of a machine with such features...

_________________
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__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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Thorham 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 9:45:15
#1113 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Mar-2014
Posts: 183
From: Unknown

Quote:
Dandy wrote:

My emphasis always was on productivity software - not on games.

So is mine. I hardly play any games at all on my A1200 (mostly a system friendly version of Dungeon Master and Chaos Strike Back). However, AOS is still a dead end.

Quote:
Dandy wrote:

So Amiga hardware without OS would be pretty useless for me...

Who ever said you shouldn't use an OS on your Amiga (it's actually impossible to not use an OS on an Amiga, except for the A1000)? Just because AOS is a dead end in terms of moving forward, doesn't mean it's useless.

Last edited by Thorham on 05-Aug-2015 at 09:48 AM.
Last edited by Thorham on 05-Aug-2015 at 09:46 AM.

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KimmoK 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 9:55:50
#1114 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@michalsc

Ok, it's not specified clearly in every place.

But official site leaves no room for mistake, it states:
- 2x PCIe x1 slots
- 1x Xorro slot

http://a-eon.com/?page=x1000

To me it is clear that one can really use only one card on that position.
(using PCIe part, using xena part or using both with one card, meaning there really is only one "slot" in that space)


There is 5 working positions for a PCIe x1 card on X1000.
One of those is the "1x Xorro slot".

(Example card using both PCIe and xena parts of the xorro slot: http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/images/Xorro1.jpg )

@thorham
>AOS is a dead end in terms of moving forward

What is not?

Every SW needs to be rewritten after a few years if they are actively maintained + new features developed, otherwise maintenance starts to take too much effort etc.
(IIRC, that was once taught on some ISEB certification course)

So, I fail to see how the OS of Amigas would be different to other SW in the world.
If the OWNER does not want it to move forward, then it's stagnant (& still not dead if there is no bug preventing it from booting up).

+
To implement some modern stuff to AOS will require re-implementing a lot of it.

@cdimaurio:
>The XCore cannot directly access the memory,

That is true for regarding the main memory. I think in theory it would have been possible to develop a board that uses conexium to DMA to motherboard main memory etc. But it would have been futile for the low bandwidth xcore in use.

>and for doing this there's a so called "local bus" connected to the CPU, that can be used to access the memory, but it's very slow (15MB/s, if I remember correctly),

We might have seen the same schematic at some point. So, I agree on the bandwidth.

It's slow if one compares it to modern serial interfaces.

> and I think it'll also long latencies.

I hope that is not true, as it would remove more than half of the usability of the integrated xcore.

IIRC, latencies are not specified / benchmarked yet anywhere, but IIRC, xcore can trigger an interrupt to get PA6T attention.

>This is the only way to interface the XCore with the rest of the computer.

True for a xena implementation on nemo board.

But with extra HW one can attach xena to PCIe, serial, USB etc. ports and slots.
For example, you could have xena driven DAQ capture card that uses PCIe lanes for data transfer and xena for control. Hardly a killer feature, though.

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Dandy 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 11:36:14
#1115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

@Dandy
I don't speak German (nur bisschen, tut mir leid), so I translated it with Google.



Oooops - as below your avatar the info "From: Germany" is given I thought you are German. Sorry...

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

Taking the sentence that you marked in bold, the second part (which I've underlined) contradicts the first.



Hmmm - to my understanding it does not really contradict. The second part just makes restrictions.
I understand it that way, that AOS behaves like an RTOS, as long as all runs 'normal'.
But due to design limitations of the OS there is no guarantee that it can respond in realtime, as soon as 'unnormal' events occur. Perhaps it will respond in realtime, perhaps not.
That's why it is frequently referred to as "close to RTOS".

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

And that's normal, since the Amiga o.s. isn't a RTOS, because cannot guarantee the same constraints.



It is clear that it isn't a real RTOS.
But it was frequently referred to as "close to RTOS" for the above reason...

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

In the legal sense, only Commodore machines where "Amiga".



Not to forget those Amigas produced by Escom. (Escom had also acquired the Commodore logo, IIRC...)

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

But unfortunately it's common to use the same name for post-Commodore machines.



And that can cause a lot of confusion in a discussion.

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

Do you know of any 64-bit Amiga or post-Amiga (like I call the non-Commodore machines which run the Amiga o.s., or some "cousin")? I don't, except AROS with is available in the x64 "flavor".



Yes, I do.
The A1X1k has PA6T-1682M cpu, which is 64-bit:

Quote:

Wikipedia on PWRficient:

"PWRficient is the name of a series of microprocessors designed by P.A. Semi where the PA6T-1682M was the only one that became an actual product.

PWRficient processors comply with the 64-bit Power Architecture,
...
"



Just that AmigaOS cannot take advantage of it yet...
Furthermore the PA6T-1682M is dual core, where the AmigaOS also cannot capitalise on yet...

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

I think that he wrote 32-bit only to emphasize that such machines were (strictly) bound to 32-bits.



Hmmm - the post-Amiga (as you call it) "Sam" from ACube Systems is also 32 bit.
So we have to be careful - the number of bits of the cpu is also not very well suited to distinguish between "Amigas" and "post-Amigas" (or "NG-Amigas).

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

You are a rare bird nowadays, since it's pretty common to have such stuff already integrated and immediately working.

Some applications aren't even used until you don't run them, so they don't impact on the "fast" o.s.. They are there: click and run them IF you want to do; or forget them.




Yes, for mainstream OSses.
But I think we both agree that AmigaOS is far, far away (old 'Slade' title, btw.) from being a mainstream OS and most likely will never become mainstream again.

So why bother with integrating these things in the OS and waste precious resources on it, if you can have them via 3rd party apps?
Better implement things like 64 bit-ness and SMP correctly...

I'd prefer to have those essential 3rd party apps included on the OS-CD/DVD and to have an installer that allows me to chose if I want to have the TCP/IP stack, the browser, the mailer and/or the USB stack installed together with the OS.

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

Lean, well, with hard disk which are already measured in TB from years, doesn't make sense. And a modern o.s. (not only Windows) uses around 10-20GB, which is a ridiculous amount compared to the available sizes. So I don't care too.



Hmmm - yes, HDs are available in TB sizes and cheap.
But still every bit takes time to be loaded from/written to an HD...

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

The users' needs have changed from 30 years, and the technology too. For the better...



Yes, of course.
That's why I use existing 'mainstream systems', if I need 'mainstream features'.

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

P.S. Please, avoid "M$": all o.ses are "huge" nowadays, and "the war" against the "enemy" was lost years ago, without any possibility of revenge.



¥€$, sir...


I know, but nevertheless love it!
With that I just wanted to indicate that Microsoft has the necessary money (and resources) to implement all and everything in their OS, while Hyperion hasn't...
Don't take it too serious...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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Dandy 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 11:37:22
#1116 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@Dandy

The creator of MuFS decided to go for Linux on Amiga almost immediately after. He still is Linux/m68k coordinator and chief upstream submitter, two decades later.



Thanks for the info!

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Dandy 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 11:42:42
#1117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
@Dandy

Even productivity software can directly use the hardware. The Deluxe Paint case, which was talked about a few days ago here, is a perfect example.

And that wasn't dirty neither illegal, if you followed Amiga Hardware Manual's guidelines.



DPaint runs on Amigas without using the OS???

How does it do that?

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Dandy
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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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KimmoK 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 11:46:42
#1118 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Dandy

Next you will read that DPaint makes your Amiga pre-emptively multitask! (PREDICTION)



((at the same time, it is true that DPaint uses very little of the AmigaOS and it enables one to disable workbench))

Last edited by KimmoK on 05-Aug-2015 at 11:51 AM.

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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olegil 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 12:13:26
#1119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Dandy

SSDs and other flash based media are still measured in GiB instead of TiB, and memory is MOST DEFINITIVELY measured in MiB and GiB rather than TiB, so having options to trim out things you don't need is always good

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This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Dandy 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 5-Aug-2015 12:43:41
#1120 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@michalsc

Quote:

michalsc wrote:
@Dandy

which says exactly what cdimauro pointed.



Is that a problem for you?
Maybe I misread him...

Quote:

michalsc wrote:

As a result of design limitations AmigaOS cannot guarantee the constraints of an RTOS. So, what was the point of quoting the site? Providing cdimauro that he was right?



I was trying to explain why AmigaOS was frequently referred to as "close to RTOS", without really being one.
Sounds as if you're a bit unhappy that we sort of agree here...

Quote:

michalsc wrote:

PS arguing that AmigaOS and Amiga machines (classing and NG if you like to draw a line between them) are good for todays use by showing that they were used for *some* tasks many many years ago at NASA



1) What does "todays use" of an computer mean to you?
2) Who did argue that "AmigaOS and Amiga machines are good for todays use" because "they were used for *some* tasks many many years ago at NASA"?

Quote:

michalsc wrote:

is like saying that Ford Modell T is good for todays tasks just because many many years ago it was so commonly used ;) Yes, the time scale is different but keeping technology jump in mind it should be just enough for a fair comparison ;)



What was the purpose of driving a car back in 1908 - 1927?
To get from A to B.

Is the reason to drive a car today a different one compared to back then?
No - people still use it to get from A to B.

So the "task of cars" did not change during the last 100 years.
And if the tasks did not change, you can of course still use a Model T today for the same tasks as you used it back in 1908 - 1927...

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Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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