@Thread

Maybe the IBM PC was the problem if we'd sent sent a T-500 Terminator back to destroy the prototype the Amiga would have flourished!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

Quote:

What I'm saying is how would an average user notice that specifically the feature of memory protection was missing?

Your apps and your data are safe in a memory protected OS. You don't have to remove apps in your OS because they tend to crash (you have to do that in AmigaOS, because any app may crash your OS).

Of course, your memory protected OS may crash too, but overall, you increase the stability by preventing bad written apps to misbehave, and trash other apps, or even the OS.

Shared memory space + lack of memory protection means anything can bring the whole OS down. The worst thing is that even though your OS appears to run for days (months), you don't know if an app hasn't trashed some memory somewhere.

With a memory protected OS you don't have to worry about this. And as you said, as an average user you should not have to worry about that. This is the OS'job not yours.

Of course, if the OS & the apps are well written, your OS can be quite stable, but you still have threats that apps can msibehave and cause other apps to break, or trash some memory and this is something people use memory protected OS want to avoid.

The same goes for the RTOS stuff: even though timing is fast and AmigaOS is quite responsive on average use, you cannot guarantee timings, again, because any app may take more time than needed, and where RTOS are used, you need guarantees. So no, AmigaOS isn't realtime either.

It was well written, and so extensible than even today it can support 3D, had dual CPU with PowerUp, could be ported to PowerPC (and x86/ARM), but making it available today for any serious use would need a complete rewrite. You do not make AmigaOS magically RTOS, or memory protected, or multiprocessor, or multiuser,.. much like you don't make MS/DOS magically modern. I'm pretty sure you can do something like Microsoft did with Windows 95. But you need a clean start if you want something serious, and future proof: that's why you have Windows NT for Microsoft, MacOSX for Apple, Quark for MorphOS,... And it took them years to do that, and most of the time, they chose to buy existing work (Next for Apple, Windows NT kernel for Microsoft). Lots of very talented engineers worked for Apple, Microsoft and tried to get the most of Classic MacOS and MS/DOS but had to make a clean break. Apple even failed several attempts to bring classic MacOS to modern ages before going the OSX road. What makes you think it is different for AmigaOS? Do you really think people working on Amiga are (were) more talented than Microsoft/Apple engineers ?

No, it won't take two years to do what took a decade to Apple, Microsoft, Linux community...

People don't even know what yo answer to this simple question: "what is the target of AmigaOS? What fields? What type of users?"

Last edited by Leo on 23-Feb-2015 at 11:51 AM.
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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

Some thesis:

1. If Hyperion Entertainment don't own their source code ... it's some kind of a problem to overcome sooner or later, isn't it? It could be more expensive, if AmigaOS becomes more successful. Even the prospect of AmigaOS getting successful could rise the prcice. On the other hand open source could be a solution for everyone (exept for those, who are against AmigaOS to become successful).

2. If Hyperion Entertainment only don't fully own AmigaOS 3.1 ... could AmigaOS 4.1 become open source by using AROS first and improve it laster?

3. "... The Amiga intellectual property is fragmented between Amiga Inc., Cloanto and Hyperion Entertainment. The copyrights for works created up to 1993 are owned by Cloanto. ..." (AmigaOS)

"... Cloanto's Michael Battilana confirmed that the company owns the copyrights for all works created by the Commodore/Amiga companies up to 1993. ...
... AmigaOS 3.5/3.9 were developed and distributed by Haage&Partner, under license from Amiga. As far as we know, said license has expired by now (and was even revoked prematurely in OS 3.9's case), meaning that there's no party holding the complete rights to these releases at the moment. ..." (Cloanto confirms transfers of Commodore/Amiga copyrights)

I think, that Cloanto could perhaps release their Amiga source code to open source, if Hyperion Entertainment give their Amiga source code to open source, so they can use AmigaOS 4 too and just like that.

I think, that Hyperion Entertainment could release their Amiga source code to open source, if Cloanto give their Amiga source code to open source, so they can overcome problem (1) and can use AmigaOS forever and ever.

4. There is only one problem left: we need perhaps a little money to get things going. Hyperion possibly won't giv AmigaOS to open source just like that and perhapse some developers like to see some money too.

5. If you ask me, it sounds not impossible at all.

AmigaOS a leading OS ? If we want it to happen we can make it happen, regardless if it makes sense or not for the industry or for our pocket. But if so, we first need a brainstorming session/thread about what/how things should/can progress instead of talking about the technicalities, the politics, the logistics, the legal obstacles again and again. There are still many ideas that other OSes are incapable of implementing or simple ignore, and there are still many reasons other OSes suck.

Last edited by toRus on 23-Feb-2015 at 12:12 PM.

@KingKong

Quote:

If you ask me, it sounds not impossible at all.

start working on it!

If we have hardware(-emulation) and user.

At what layer could AmigaOS be usefull today?

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A1G3-SE + OS4.1 u1 iso (x2)

@KingKong

Quote:

Seems to me that some if not most useres of AROS and MorphOS or against my ideas - perhaps they fear that AmigaOS could become to successful and thus eliminate AROS and MorphOS. Well, could be but then it's a proof for my idea to likely be successful, isn't it?

Oh no! You uncevered us!

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Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@KingKong

The only way I can see for AmigaOS (or AROS or MorphOS) to become a leading OS is for it be the OS of a popular hardware platform. And the only way for that to happen is for there to be a very inexpensive box that anyone can easily afford that has some killer app that people want.

So imagine something like an ARMIGA http://www.armigaproject.com/ but without the floppy drive. Maybe add a little something something extra in the form of a custom chip --perhaps an XCore like the X1000 and/or a good DSP. But it would need to sell for less than $99. Preferably in the range of $50.

Then is would need to be multi-purpose. It can work as a general desktop computer or as a TV settop box/game machine. The latter would have to have the modern desired apps, like NextFlix, Hulu, Spotify, etc. Combine this will an online app store with all those great retro Amiga apps, plus new wares. Well, then I think AmigaOS would have a chance at a real future.

@trans

A streaming OS?

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A1G3-SE + OS4.1 u1 iso (x2)

@trans

Quote:

The only way I can see for AmigaOS (or AROS or MorphOS) to become a leading OS is for it be the OS of a popular hardware platform. And the only way for that to happen is for there to be a very inexpensive box that anyone can easily afford that has some killer app that people want.

It is not exactly so. Apple is selling OSX with their own expensive x86 hardware and are successful with that. Apple is also succesful with iPad and iPhones.

Why Apple is succesful? Because they are selling computers, tablets and phones. The operating system is just small part of it.

Linux and Windows are different. There operating system is the solution to your hardware -- that is you have got piece of hardware and Windows or Linux is the operating system for your hardware. They have got drivers, they have got the software, they have everything you need.

I dont see how other operating systems, was it Amiga other like Haiku, could find mainstream success. But is it needed? They can be good hobby operating systems and I see nothing wrong with that. And there a popular and/or cheap hardware helps a lot.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

Why not strive for all?

- RTOS
- 32-bit and 64-bit
- state of the art standards
- good setup/bootmanager
- reliable, very secure and user-friendly
- able to run on PowerPC, ARM and IA-32
- able to run Linux, Windows, OS X and Android programs
- expensive (but of course good valued) up to date hardware
- usable for smartphones, small devices and supercomputers
- small base OS and optional easy installation of all useful stuff
- cheap hardware with only 1 GB RAM, some flash-memory (even 16 GB would be sufficient) and USB

What else do you want?

The question is where to start, what to do first ... and this could be very well going open source - how else could it all be done?

Okay, there's Linux but is Linux already perfect? No.

What's needed (beside high security) is a kind of easy to use but also very capable OS (that's no contradiction). It is very important, that it somehow can run most programs and can be used like the now popular operating systems - not simultaneously but easy to configure and with prepared settings.

Yeah, this can't be done in one day but perhaps in 10 years or so. For starters a nice AmigaOS for home users with USB, SATA, Gigabit Ethernet, PCIe, LibreOffice, browser and e-mail would suffice and that's not far away, look at AmigaOne and AmigaOne X1000.

@KingKong

Quote:

Why not strive for all?

yeah, why not?

Quote:

The question is where to start, what to do first ... and this could be very well going open source - how else could it all be done?

you tell us.

@wawa

This guy needs to start a Kickstarter with Belxjander, Roberto J. Donhert, and AmiDARK.
Go Dream Team!

@wawa

Quote:

you tell us.

I'm waiting for him to tell us how he is planning to get around that Hyperion, if it can come back from the dead, doesn't own much (if at all) OS4 code since they never paid the primary Devs. If you will remember, the OS4 Devs went to court during the Amiga Inc vs Hyperion to claim they own their OS4 Code and not Hyperion. Then he can explain why Cloanto should open source the code after paying money for it. Even more amusing will be convincing Amiga Inc that it's in his best interest to allow it to happen with the name they own.

Then we can nominate him for a Nobel prize!

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Dammy

@KingKong

- RTOS
- 32-bit and 64-bit
- state of the art standards
- good setup/bootmanager (None needed)
- reliable, very secure and user-friendly
- able to run on PowerPC, ARM and IA-32
- able to run Linux, Windows, OS X and Android programs (Linux yes, Windows yes, OSX only in pearpc)
- expensive (but of course good valued) up to date hardware
- usable for smartphones, small devices and supercomputers
- small base OS and optional easy installation of all useful stuff
- cheap hardware with only 1 GB RAM, some flash-memory (even 16 GB would be sufficient) and USB


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I can compile you AEROS for ARM with RealtimeLinux kernel.
Should fit 95% of your wishes.

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AROS Broadway - AEROS - Aminux - AmiCloud - indieGO! Appstore - AmiWallet - VAN lossless video codec - AMC Amiga media Center -KrypUnite - LibertyNet - MinX - amigaNX

@damocles

I'm not singling you out and I hope you know that.

Most old timers are gone and there are fewer and fewer who can spout the history of the toxic IP. You can't expect everyone who wants to express ideas/perceived solutions to know all the ins and outs. Just sayin'...

#6

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This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

@number6

Quote:

You can't expect everyone who wants to express ideas/perceived solutions to know all the ins and outs.

especially if they dont want to know and simply insist on some idee fixe they pop in with, and want others to follow, because they can make long posts about it. someone must have told the crowd, there is a site they can get away with it being seriously discussed. wonder, who?

@number6

Quote:

'm not singling you out and I hope you know that. Most old timers are gone and there are fewer and fewer who can spout the history of the toxic IP. You can't expect everyone who wants to express ideas/perceived solutions to know all the ins and outs. Just sayin'...

From time to time people need to be reminded of the putrid stench that is attached to Amiga IP. For some, it might be a new revelation on just where everything sits. I completely understand what the OS4 users are going through as history repeats itself yet again. Us old farts have been through it may times before, C=, EScom, Gateway, Amiga Inc - QSSL, and the various Amiga Inc scams and court hearings. For many of us during the years of Amiga chaos, have come to the conclusion enough is enough and a break away is the only solution.

_________________
Dammy

@agami

Well, I'm a user and I find it usefull in Windows. I also find it usefull in MacOS X and in Linux. Yes the whole OS does lock up sometimes, it still happens but lots of times you just need to quit the app and restart it. Are you saying that noone but me cares about this feature? I would claim the opposite.

I also say that if an OS/platform offers something that people want that no other OS got it's easier to ignore its shortcomings. That was the point of the Wii example imagining AOS to run on something else than a desktop computer.

I personaly find it a lot smoother to restart Firefox if it stops respondig (for example) compared to a complete reset when I use Windows. I would prefer to do that with AOS as well. I think that with more features added that the competitions has had for a while now it will be more appealing, that's all.

These features alone (multicore etc) won't sell more copies but there will be less reasons not too. Saying that memory protection is unnecessary is like going back in time and saying that multitasking is unnecessary. Say that it's 1987 again, you could just as well buy an Apple computer for example but still, multitasking is nice to have if it's there. When Windows 95 was released that was a big deal and the same goes for MacOS X.

That's how I look at it. My friends are acvanced users/developers though (passive developers) so maybe they have higher demands than others but on the other hand they are the ones who the novices turn to for advice. They would say that it lacks these features, software and is expensive. If you wanna come back and compete with the competition these features are important and who likes to do a reboot and start everything again? I know that I don't. But that is just one of all things that are lacking. If you think that you got a solution to sell more copies then great, this is just my thoughts.

Last edited by hotrod on 23-Feb-2015 at 06:48 PM.

@thread

Back in ~2004 I was still using an Amiga as my main computer and I still believed it would be possible (but perhaps unlikely) for AmigaOS to be brought to the frontline of computing again. And I dearly wanted it to be.

Many people argued that it was silly to think the Amiga could ever be a "serious" computing platform again. Some even suggested that to think otherwise was at best wishful thinking, and at worst a delusion.

Now it's 11 years later. And there are still people out there who really believe the Amiga could be a popular serious computing solution!

Personally I have left those dreams long behind. I still enjoy Amiga computing, and I even have a couple of machines which I cherish and look after. I still think it's cool to fit new hardware to my old machines, and I hope that 3rd party development continues for many years to come. I will support it for as long as it does. But I can't even *imagine* still holding on to the dream of Amiga rising from the ashes and seriously competing in the market.

The only way I could ever see it happening is if someone came up with a completely new and revolutionary computing experience, had the money + resources to bring it to market first, and had enough passion for our beloved platform to unleash it to the world under the Amiga name. One far-fetched example would be holographic simulation computing. Perhaps in some alternate universe that actually happens. Chances of it happening in this one? Pretty much nil. And even if it did, it wouldn't be "Amiga" in the same way that we know it to be. It'd be a completely new computing experience altogether. It'd just have the Amiga name, that's all.

Other than some fantastic result like the one I've mentioned, I don't see the Amiga as we know it ever returning to the front line of computing again. That's just the way it is. These days I try to get my computing kicks with Linux and I play with my Amigas for fun.

[EDIT]

One way that I could imagine AmigaOS in is current guise becoming more popular is if the OS became open-source, and cheap to buy. If it was free to use, even better. I think this would instantly give the platform more users, and it would significantly accelerate development.
...but we'd still be talking about a hobby OS.

Nothing wrong with that, though?

Last edited by BrianHoskins on 23-Feb-2015 at 09:21 PM.
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