@KimmoK

"-supports also CPU architecture independent executables"

that would blow up the size of executables considerably

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: @resle I would love to see a 64bit + SMP + MP AOS/API variant to be specified. Some with money could pay MOS+AROS+AOS gurus to shake hands and discuss how the NG should be made. (10k€ per a guy for attending, etc etc) Form a team to lead the R&D of the first version. Then one day, there could be AmigaNGv0.1 OS to start playing with. -it would look and feel like an AmigaOS -64bit addressing, (S)MP and memory protection -initially not compatible to 68k or PPC legacy -a few recompiled Amiga+MorphOS apps -supports also CPU architecture independent executables -available for affordable HW (ARM64, PPC and x64 builds should exist) and later: -more native apps -sandbox for 68k apps -sandboxes for legacy PPC apps, if needed -sandbox/virtualization to use other OS's apps -etc...

And then a market of hundreds of thouands, nay millions of interested users turns up to buy them? Investing real money requires an expectation of financial return.

What does Amiga-like OSes offer that makes a good starting point for a product that large numbers of people would want to buy? I personally enjoy using it, but would struggle to think of a reason to recommend it to anyone else who wasn't into the Amiga back in the day.

Beyond the hobbyist market, I see no reason to start with Amiga-like OSes beyond my personal familiarity, and for a large-investment-upfront business idea, any sane person would start with a base where the hard work is already done (ie Linux) and the user interface more familiar, save several million pounds, several years time to market, a bucketload of legal and development-hurdle-type risks, and have access to an extra gazillion up-to-date apps, as well as a developer base familiar with the OS.

It doesn't make me happy to say this, but it's a pragmatic view of "Why Amiga? 2015"

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@Thorham

Quote:

Well, yes. I don't have an Amiga to try and raise the specs as much as possible. 68030s are great, AGA is great, and Paula is great. If I want more, then I'll use my PC.

There is some truth to that but if we only hold to that the Amiga NG development dies and it becomes a truly dead platform Without the 68k apps and games the platform struggles against other platforms. Heck, with them it struggles but some people will remember these apps and games and remember them as fun and without any modern equivalent. That is our only hope; not going head to head with the PC and Mac but offering some programs and games that they can't! AmigaOS and Personal Paint on the Raspberry Pi seems like the perfect hook for new users to give it a try but yet again it looks like we've missed the boat!

Last edited by BigD on 02-Mar-2015 at 12:03 AM.

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@OlafS25

>>"-supports also CPU architecture independent executables"
>that would blow up the size of executables considerably

Perhaps. Depends on the implementation of it. Intent VP binaries were smaller than native binaries.
And another kind of example, IIRC, most of android apps are not compiled to ARM, even when they run on small memory devices.
(but if there would exist one AmigaNG API, devs should have no trouble compiling all CPU ISA variants)

but I believe Amigans prefer "native" over virtual processors...

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

Blah blah, blahblah blah blah.

Blah, blahblahblah, ..... blah?
Blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah.......... blah?


Seriously, most people are aware of the shortcomings of the systems and know there's no chance for them to become much more than they are now.
These sorts of threads are hardly a revelation, as most people already know the truth. Heck, many of the people using amiga-oid systems know these shortcomings better than the people that complain about them.

The simple fact is some people still find them enjoyable, and so long as they can do a reasonable amount of what a person wants them for, theyre happy.
With the price of generic computing devices as they are, and the capability of said devices growing, an amiga-oid system can fill in a number of the gaps that a desktop system offers vs. generic computing (tablets/phones/etc.).

A desktop computers form factor is what it offers these days, and a lot of the time amiga-oid systems supplement the generic devices nicely.

I'm a realist to the nth degree. Probably disliked by many people here because of it, but sheesh,......... give it a rest will y'all. I/we know that amiga-oid systems are never going to take over the world, but I really don't care.
Hobbies are supposed to be fun and I'd rather enjoy what I enjoy than drone on why/how/what it is that's "wrong" with it (of which Im already aware).

So, quick re-cap:

blahblah
not a revelation
I'll still enjoy it anyway.
blah

@fishy_fis

I, for one, would be happy just by being able to natively run AmigaOS 3.1 as it is on a X86 machine, and run amiga games within it.




Off-topic but not so much: did you notice how all the eye candy like drop shadows, transparency, 3d stuff and even highly detailed icons are being cast away from modern UIs? Designers are finally realizing that low-fi graphics never get old and seldom get tacky. All of a sudden Workbench 1.3 doesn't look that graphically outdated anymore, honest!

@Boot_WB

Those were just my 0.2 cents about :
"You want AmigaOS to be a great OS?"

For me AOS4 is OK, more usefull than my AOS3.9 setup, but I want it to be better.
I would like to be able to use Amigalike OS with MP + SMP + enough RAM, ALREADY during my lifetime.

It helps also the userbase to grow, if the affordable HW issue is fixed as well.

More so when/if we get more modern SW for it.

and a question not asked...
"What I need before I can recommend it to joe the average"
- more ease of use
- more stability
- more affordable (the HW issue)

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

Semantics, but I couldn't refrain.....
How much RAM do you want? AROS already supports 4gig for 32bit and iirc 128gig for 64bit (perhaps more).
While enhanced memory protection woudnt hurt, smp isn't as important (although still would be nice).
A single core on a modern machine would be more powerful than any OS4 hardware, even if the latter supported multiple cores, so if processing power is important, currently (and in any foreseeable future) aros will always offer decent power vs any ppc systems.

I understand that this doesn't solve any os4 problems if that's your weapon of choice, but many of the things people are aspiring to already exist. OS4 will always be trailing when it comes to hardware, regardless of support. If hardware performance is important to a person, then there's no need to wait.

@fishy_fis

>How much RAM do you want? AROS already supports 4gig for 32bit and iirc 128gig for 64bit (perhaps more).

128G would be enough.
I think 2Gb is little limited for some modern needs. 4Gb is a lot better.
I might be happy with 2Gb + extmem, if it gets supported and works well.

>, smp isn't as important (although still would be nice). A single core on a modern machine would be more powerful than any OS4 hardware,

I work in a company that builds HW around 1,3Ghz and 1,6Ghz modern intel chips and I do not see single thread performance growing (much/at all) any more. World has gone multicore.

So, IMO. All Amiga variants should aim to use all of the available CPU power, instead of one thread of one core.

>I understand that this doesn't solve any os4 problems if that's your weapon of choice, but many of the things people are aspiring to already exist. OS4 will always be trailing when it comes to hardware, regardless of support. If hardware performance is important to a person, then there's no need to wait.

I agree that it's great that we have variants, not all eggs in one basket.
I will explore AROS more, I promise.

(last time I tried AROS seemed to be the most demanding towards the user to get it running well, I should get prebuilt+installed HW for it one day)

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: For me AOS4 is OK, more usefull than my AOS3.9 setup, but I want it to be better. I would like to be able to use Amigalike OS with MP + SMP + enough RAM, ALREADY during my lifetime.

So, basically you want a brand new o.s., which of course is incompatible with the previous one (and its applications).

Who will pay for the HUGE amount of work needed for it? An around 1000 users base?

Be realistic: I know that dreaming is cheap, but you are asking the Moon.
Quote:

It helps also the userbase to grow, if the affordable HW issue is fixed as well.

Which will NOT be the case, since OS4 is chained to the PowerPC platform (and only 32-bit, since there's no way to have a full 64-bit version of o.s. & applications without completely losing the compatibility with the existing code), and this platform is costly, underpowered and died.
Quote:

More so when/if we get more modern SW for it.

It's impossible until you decide to completely changed architecture. But, again, who will pay for such work?
Quote:

and a question not asked... "What I need before I can recommend it to joe the average" - more ease of use - more stability - more affordable (the HW issue)

See above: too much (irrealistic) dreams...

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: @Boot_WB Those were just my 0.2 cents about : "You want AmigaOS to be a great OS?"

Sorry, didn't mean to word it as a reply solely to your post. I should really have framed it as a reply to Resle's original post - I think your post was the one which just reminded me, after I'd read through most of the thread, about the huge sums of money which would need investing (eg suggesting E10K per attendee as a starter), and the huge amount of work (therefore time, and inherent risk) required.

I guess I was reading in the context of the thread title (being pragmatic about AmigaOS) rather than the rhetorical question in the OP (You want AmigaOS to be a great OS?).

Last edited by Boot_WB on 02-Mar-2015 at 08:55 PM.

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@cdimauro

>So, basically you want a brand new o.s., which of course is incompatible with the previous one (and its applications).

If that is required to get those things, then yes. Amiga is not (just) retro for me.

>Who will pay for the HUGE amount of work needed for it?

Who is paying (or would pay) for the even bigger work needed to try to put multicore support to three(+) existing branches?
And a lot of work done on current AOS4.1 or MorphOS or AROS can anyway be re-used.

Who is paying for the AEROS? IIRC, it does multicore processing and so will the new one (airix?).

>An around 1000 users base?

The alternative is for NG developments to surely shrink to death.

>PPC platform is costly

One can do 1.4Ghz PPC HW system for below 200EUR.
So, it does not cost too much.
(it "only" is less powerfull for the money, when compared to mainstream desktops)

>>What I need before...
>See above: too much (irrealistic) dreams..

That was not a dream.
I just stated what I need before I could recommend Amigadevice (AOS or MorphOS or AROS powered) to a average person.

Last edited by KimmoK on 03-Mar-2015 at 09:43 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

I have a friend who uses a Mac (X64) and it included both 32bit and 64bit in one binary, now they have removed 32bit and it makes a tremendous difference. So I assume that this would happen here too.

@KimmoK

I think what is missing on AROS (if you look at the X86/X64/ARM versions) is that it is easy to install on average hardware and that means missing drivers added. The most realistic option there is to use Linux for that (like it is planned/in development at Arix or use Linux hosted like it is done with Aeros).

The other pieces are there, development of a 64bit distributions is starting in near future, ARM is already there too.

@OlafS25

>Mac (X64) and it included both 32bit and 64bit in one binary, now they have removed 32bit and it makes a tremendous difference.

Or was it PPC and x64 in one binary?
(perhaps my memory is tricking me now .... has there been x86 version of OSX?)

But yes, if executable contain two binaries, then sure, it needs almost double of the space.

((also, installer could be tuned to install only the needed binary, if virtual processor or JIT emulation is not used))

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

Ok, it's about time for --

@KimmoK

from what he explained me he installed a newer version of MacOS and that needed less ressources because of removing 32bit so I think it was 32bit and 64bit support.

@OlafS25
? why would blow cpu independent apps anything up?
Are you aware of Hollywood or java or nano vm http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&type=&topic_id=7871&forum=2?

You can easely create platform independet apps today : )

The easiest is to use Hollywood. It works and with the relase of Hollywood Player you can create small litlle applets.

The single Applet works on any Hollywood target System.

......
get the Raspberry crowd to code with Hollywood and you get many Little Tools..

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 03-Mar-2015 at 03:57 PM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 03-Mar-2015 at 03:56 PM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 03-Mar-2015 at 03:56 PM.

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@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: @cdimauro >So, basically you want a brand new o.s., which of course is incompatible with the previous one (and its applications). If that is required to get those things, then yes. Amiga is not (just) retro for me.

It's required, for sure. But it will not happen because there are no resources to accomplish it.
Quote:

>Who will pay for the HUGE amount of work needed for it? Who is paying (or would pay) for the even bigger work needed to try to put multicore support to three(+) existing branches?

After THREE years we haven't yet seen something except a new blog post which talks about SMP and multi-core in general, with no clear statement about the current working on progress on multi-core support (we cannot talk about SMP currently).

After 14 years of development, what you have on your hands is the original Amiga o.s. 3.1 sources which are still patched to introduce some features, but not the ones which we have already discussed.
Quote:

And a lot of work done on current AOS4.1 or MorphOS or AROS can anyway be re-used.

All 3 post-Amiga o.ses do NOT have the desired modern features.
Quote:

Who is paying for the AEROS? IIRC, it does multicore processing and so will the new one (airix?).

It's privately funded, but it's not SMP and lacks important modern features. And the most important thing is that it's a Linux hosted system...
Quote:

>An around 1000 users base? The alternative is for NG developments to surely shrink to death.

The community is already dying, especially for the overpriced but underpowered hardware.
Quote:

>PPC platform is costly One can do 1.4Ghz PPC HW system for below 200EUR. So, it does not cost too much. (it "only" is less powerfull for the money, when compared to mainstream desktops)

Such low-cost system is a ridiculously underpowered toy. You need more performance at an affordable price.
Quote:

>>What I need before... >See above: too much (irrealistic) dreams.. That was not a dream. I just stated what I need before I could recommend Amigadevice (AOS or MorphOS or AROS powered) to a average person.

Which means a dream, because you cannot pretend that the average Joe pays A LOT of money for an underpowered toy which lacks modern (and essentials nowadays) features.

@cdimauro

Quote:

Which means a dream, because you cannot pretend that the average Joe pays A LOT of money for an underpowered toy which lacks modern (and essentials nowadays) features.

But what if you use a FPGA, that be cooool

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Mar-2015 at 12:27 AM.

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