@Tuxedo

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Tuxedo wrote: @Deniil715 Well...you are absolutely right but in that optic(AmigaOS users always much old and few free time) we have only 2 choiches: 1 - Let AmigaOS die since in within few years it will be really absolete in that perspective of no time. 2 - Expect for our job retirements and than have a community os 60/70 old mans that than have much time to spend on programmin like when their's guys... No one of the 2 scenarios was nice to me...any idea on how to have a tirhd choice?

AmigaOS and OS4 are already hopelessly obsolete. They don't even achieve feature parity with Windows 95 and have almost no software base.

@umisef

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umisef wrote: @Tuxedo Quote: we gets 10000 € that was a really stupid amount of money(about 8 months normal work salary) how will left its work to gets an 8 months adventure? Uh, that's about 7.20 Euro per hour --- which is less than the minimum legal wage in Germany, for example. And that's before considering overheads (office rent, accounting, public holidays, annual leave etc). But you are talking about paying programmers (or, really, software engineers --- because OS development involves a lot more design than actual programming) to do highly qualified work. Minimum wage is not even a consideration at that point. To put it into perspective --- you are talking about exactly the kind of work I am doing. 10,000 Euro is roughly what I make in one month. It gets worse, however --- I am long-term employed by a consultancy company, and the company charges me out to clients for shorter-term (up to a year) projects. When buying my services through my employer, 10,000 Euro is enough for only half a month. So unless you were planning on outsourcing to India (good luck finding Amiga-aware software engineers there...), your estimates are almost am order of magnitude too low.

Well, while your salary is probably on the upper end of the scale, it doesn't make your points void in any way. Many people tend to forget that in western countries, especially European countries, there are also taxes/welfare fees that aren't insignificant that's added on top of that take-home net salary that you as an employee get paid out.

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we are all old (and I think, pretty smart) and we don't to move that fast

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our job retirements and than have a community os 60/70 old mans

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AmigaOS users always much old

What is the average age of an Amiga user?

I wasn't under the impression that Amiga users are all old men. I get the impression the average age in America is higher, as I know a lot of U.S users bought Amiga 1000s in 1985 when they were already adults, but here in Europe I think the average age is younger.

Most Amiga fans I know are people who got A500/600/1200s as kids in the early 90s, so they range from late 20s-late 30s, certainly not on death's door.

I hope I've got a good 30-35 years before I'm due to retire!

Last edited by danwood on 19-Mar-2015 at 12:31 PM.

@ne_one

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ne_one wrote: Before budgeting for any sort of development effort (monetary or otherwise), a little planning would be a thought. It's coming down to the choice of preserving the "old and unique" legacy systems or creating a modern replacement. It's time to let the past go and move forward.

I chose ARM because I feel that ARM was based loosely on some ideas behind the 6502.

ARM machine language is a little more involved.

I have development boards and no money and no interest from the Commodore or Amiga community.

The reality is that I can't build everything because I don't have the free time yet and there are a lot of things I don't know how to do.

If I can't have a new and unique computer, I will be playing with chips and hardware.

@Condor

Sounds like a great line for a chorus. Why don't you write a song?

" I don't get this no more......"

Amiga rock pop ballad.

Oh and there's the name of your band.

@Tuxedo

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Sincew you seems in the correct busines, what do you think was the really correct salary/month and minimu mtime to spend for 2 persons to made some good improvement to actual AmigaOS situation?

That's the other issue I have with your idea of trying to pay developers --- I can't quite see what the point would be.

AmigaOS by now is so massively out of date and missing in support for any even remotely modern (and sensible) hardware, as well as missing support (and in fact, sometimes having a design philosophy which prevents support) for so many features that are considered a given by almost any other OS, that I really can't see what could be done to make it interesting enough to be worthwhile.

As a market for applications, it is just non-existent. As an app developer, I could choose to target all users of OS4, or I could choose to target the iPhone users who bought their phone while I was writing this post. The second group is larger... And there is a proper development environment, as well as a way to reach and charge the customers.

As a basis for an interesting OS, AmigaOS just doesn't offer anything worthwhile. Its kernel is simplistic, its graphics subsystem stuck in the 90s (most other OSs these days worry about distributing the OpenGL rendering across multiple displays, and about dynamic adding/removing/mirroring of displays), its sound system is almost non-existent. Device support is poor, documentation often out of date and/or incomplete; The programming community is tiny, and finding quality answers to even simple questions is hard. And the whole thing is proprietary, with, to put it kindly, somewhat unclear ownership of the IP.
I could go on, but what it comes down to is simply --- if anyone wants to work on some interesting and cool idea at the OS level, why in the world would they do so on AmigaOS instead of Linux, Darwin or Haiku?

So in summary --- before you think about what it would cost to hire someone, I suggest you think about what you would hire them for, and try to reason why whatever that is would make a significant difference to the current situation.

(As for your other question, what you'd have to pay someone to do that work --- I can only speak for myself, and for myself the answer would be "Considerably more than I am making in my current job; And at least 6 months worth of future wages would have to be in escrow at any given time". But then, I am rather cynical about the odds of actual getting paid promised money in the Amiga context, based on past experiences ;)

@umisef

I think you are right in your statement but I miss one thing...do you are a current Amiga user or simply you spend your time on an AmigaOS oriented forum fo fun?

To my point of view I use AmigaOS since it let me do rather all the things I need to do so, since I like it for its way of work and so on, I prefer use it to windows or other system so I try to do what I can to improve the actual AmigaOS situation...naturally nowadays there was so much thing to do with a computer/os that everyone needs some things that some other guy dont need, and AmigaOS dont offer to everyone all the choiches he need...
If AmigaOS dont give me anything I will simply left it but atm I like useing it as spoken above so any discussion on how to improve the situation was interesting...imho...

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@Manu

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Especially when you take into the account that at least 1200 of those donors aren't probably even aware of a current NG amiga community and simply doesn't even hang around in AmiNG circles.

I do realize that, that it might be hard get people that don't even use Amiga today to donate, I also realize that book project about 80's/90's has a higher impact, because we are all here because of it.

Now we have spited the community into 3, dividing the customer base, so in order get anywhere near this number its possible most support more than one OS, and this generates a lot more testing, complete time, and user support questions, that all adds up wasted time.

So using a programming language that only targets one platform is not going to be efficient way to produce code, you accentual need to write code in language that targets all platforms, I think that be the most efficient way, to support all operating systems.

I think the best way to get revenues is to forget about Amiga community and target Linux/Windows users, simply write something that is portable; the problem here is that they have everything already, they do not need a new text editor, a new printing system, and they have all that.

Well the Linux users need a better package management system, because its impossible to revert back to older bug free package of something, without downgrading Linux due 100 of dependence's on new package,

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 19-Mar-2015 at 02:43 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 19-Mar-2015 at 02:41 PM.

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@umisef

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its sound system is almost non-existent

Actually it's not a problem, you can use OpenAL instead, then torture your self-using AHI low level interfaces.

It's pretty far down on list of things I think needs to be fixed.

Network is on the top of the list; the fact that I need to worry about socket sharing between threads in programs I port to AmigaOS, is a major problem. It can be real show stopper to bring many interesting programs to AmigaOS.

then there is IPv6 might be getting more and more relevant, at some time in the future they going to make the switch. Its lot easier to keep track of people when they have static IP. The governments will demand it.

Using an Amiga OS with out network will not be fun.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 19-Mar-2015 at 03:10 PM.
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Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 19-Mar-2015 at 03:04 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 19-Mar-2015 at 03:03 PM.

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@umisef

Quote:

umisef wrote: @Tuxedo Quote: Sincew you seems in the correct busines, what do you think was the really correct salary/month and minimu mtime to spend for 2 persons to made some good improvement to actual AmigaOS situation? That's the other issue I have with your idea of trying to pay developers --- I can't quite see what the point would be. AmigaOS by now is so massively out of date and missing in support for any even remotely modern (and sensible) hardware, as well as missing support (and in fact, sometimes having a design philosophy which prevents support) for so many features that are considered a given by almost any other OS, that I really can't see what could be done to make it interesting enough to be worthwhile. As a market for applications, it is just non-existent. As an app developer, I could choose to target all users of OS4, or I could choose to target the iPhone users who bought their phone while I was writing this post. The second group is larger... And there is a proper development environment, as well as a way to reach and charge the customers. As a basis for an interesting OS, AmigaOS just doesn't offer anything worthwhile. Its kernel is simplistic, its graphics subsystem stuck in the 90s (most other OSs these days worry about distributing the OpenGL rendering across multiple displays, and about dynamic adding/removing/mirroring of displays), its sound system is almost non-existent. Device support is poor, documentation often out of date and/or incomplete; The programming community is tiny, and finding quality answers to even simple questions is hard. And the whole thing is proprietary, with, to put it kindly, somewhat unclear ownership of the IP. I could go on, but what it comes down to is simply --- if anyone wants to work on some interesting and cool idea at the OS level, why in the world would they do so on AmigaOS instead of Linux, Darwin or Haiku? So in summary --- before you think about what it would cost to hire someone, I suggest you think about what you would hire them for, and try to reason why whatever that is would make a significant difference to the current situation.

Amiga is indeed the answer to a question that nobody has asked for a decade and a half!

For a retro hobby (yes even the "NG" is retro) it's fun! But anyone dreaming about some business angel who would suddenly emerge in 2015 and plow down fortunes in a "Next Generation" Amiga should better wake up!

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NutsAboutAmiga wrote: So using a programming language that only targets one platform is not going to be efficient way to produce code, you accentual need to write code in language that targets all platforms, I think that be the most efficient way, to support all operating systems.

You're forgetting the differences in hardware. There's no point in writing heavy software for OS4/MorphOs machines and limit yourself by trying to stay compatible with classic hardware running AOS2/3. Similarly, if someone wants to write software that runs really well on, say, a 68030, then depending on what the software is, they may want to use assembly language here and there. They also can't use AOS4 and MorphOs features.

There are three platforms: Classic, AOS4 and MorphOs. Mixing the first with the latter two isn't necessarily a good idea.

Last edited by Thorham on 19-Mar-2015 at 05:10 PM.

@Thorham

Well it depends on what your making, a text editor, or printer que, might not need that level of optimization. While a media player or game, might need a lot more care to make it run fast on slower hardware.

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@Condor

I'm trying to get a better understanding of what your end goal(s) would be for Amiga -- classic Amiga? Some of us are still using classic Amiga for stuff beyond games, though I imagine our numbers are dwindling.

@NutsAboutAmiga

There are so many areas that need to be addressed that the scale clearly tips in favour of adding what is missing from the Amiga onto something else.

Like perhaps something that could be seen as the modern, spiritual successor to AmigaOS...?

DragonFly BSD

@orb85750

I have 10 classic Amigas, MacMini with MorphOs and this is now my main computer.
Most software what I use to make something is classic amiga software which I ran on MorphOs now. Some software still better works on classic Amiga and I also use my A1200 with B1240 for some stuff. With programs like Brilliance and Lightwave we can make 24-bit graphics on old classic Amigas and have great fun to do this.
This is only 2 programs and we have many more software to do anything.
I found using this old programs to make up to date graphic is pretty fun and most people when see something I make ask me...oh cool, so you are good with Photoshop?
Its kind of fun when people think that only Photoshop is way to go to do something.
Even more is fun that we can do 24bits graphic with non 24bits computers and I remember when I was young and used Real3D on my A500 to render 640x512x24 picture on floppy drive...and ask somebody with PC for converting this IFF image to JPG which I can see on my Amiga500. :)
So software is here (old and usefull) but we need Photoshop, 3D Studio Max, OpenGL, DirectX and I don't know what, but we need this because Amiga is death and we don't have up to date software to do something creative.
Also I found that most new games I was play on my Ps3, X360 and Wii is just boring pile of polygons in motion. Same stuff in different shape.
Lack of idea is replaced with glory graphic. (anybody remember Heavly Sword, the PS3 game which came when Ps3 was new, a stupid, boring game where everything is pushed to just show how many enemies can render PS3.

My current goal is to make my game. Game with nice 24bits graphic, simple and very addictive to play.
But this will be big game with lots of animation, cool stuff, upgrades, RPG elements and I wanna make something like game engine in Hollywood.
As I am new in programnig with this awesome program, I start (again) from start because I was not happy with some stuff I was make before.
It's hard sometimes to do all stuff alone, but I like to use my Amiga in creative way.
I will not say more about type of game I working on this probably will be Windows/Linux/Mac only game because I am sick of flamming anything we do here for Amiga or even just do something with our Amigas.
I will do opposite of anybody here, I will use my Amigas to make non Amigas game, so probably this topic is on wrong forum now.
By bad, sorry.

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@Hypex

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Hypex wrote: @Condor Sounds like a great line for a chorus. Why don't you write a song? " I don't get this no more......" Amiga rock pop ballad. Oh and there's the name of your band.

Hehehe nice one.
I play guitar so we need a singer. Are you interested?
Band name can be The Amiga Vulture btw.

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@Condor

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I play guitar so we need a singer. Are you interested?

I am if I can find a singing voice. It appears in the shower then disappears when I come out. If I have a "Commitments" moment I'll let you know.

@Condor

Is the number of users the issue when it comes to development? Its a shame that it is locked into PPC - with the likes of the RPi2 costing only $35 it could be a great platform to use as a base.

Sitting at home I have 2 RPi B's, 1 B+ and 1 A+ as well as a RPi2 B+. They are doing various things; Music Hosting/Streaming, 3D Printer server, home security, retro console emulator. They are so cheap that it is easy to buy a few and even if you don't use them not feel you have a huge amount of money that is wasted.

I know it won't happen but would it be cool to have AOS4 running on an ARM? I wonder how expensive it would be to buy the license off of ARM and build a processor and GFX around it? Not cheap I know

@ne_one

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=40042&forum=4&0

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@Condor

So you're unhappy with the Amiga community, therefore you will use your Amigas to create something that will work only on other platforms, not on Amiga. Are you being spiteful, or am I misinterpreting what you said??