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      /  Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
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megol 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 25-Mar-2015 16:46:04
#21 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 355
From: Unknown

@Niolator
Storm in a teacup, as I wrote above.

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Niolator 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 25-Mar-2015 17:17:08
#22 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-May-2003
Posts: 1420
From: Unknown

@megol

Oh, I didn't see that. Good to see that someone has the same point of view as me.

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ncafferkey 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 25-Mar-2015 17:31:44
#23 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 7-Jul-2003
Posts: 274
From: Unknown

So the formerly open PC architecture is slowly becoming as locked down as a games console, and hardly anyone cares? It's environmentally unfriendly that when locked-down PCs become old (and unsupported by Microsoft), they'll have to be dumped because you can't install a lightweight, still-supported or specialist OS.

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Jupp3 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 25-Mar-2015 21:49:35
#24 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@ncafferkey

Quote:
So the formerly open PC architecture is slowly becoming as locked down as a games console

I don't think it has ever been really impossible to at least "make it harder to install 3rd party operating systems", just most didn't see any point in doing that (would likely be more expensive that way too)

But in modern world, more and more companies want to restrict & control users (I guess the focus has shifted from making money from hardware sales to services etc.)

So as said previously, Microsoft has demanded complete lockdown of certain computers since 2012, and now plans to give manufacturers a choice of enforcing that on any hardware.

And it's not just "trying to prevent installation" that shows how much more hostile some companies are againist anything not directly provided by them: There are quite a few examples of companies trying to refuse honoring the warranty on their device, if user installed his OS of choice.

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QuBe 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 26-Mar-2015 6:18:13
#25 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Dec-2006
Posts: 1075
From: Dunes of Uridia

@ncafferkey

It is a horrendous thought isn't it?

Q!

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megol 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 26-Mar-2015 11:34:07
#26 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 355
From: Unknown

@ncafferkey

But for the love of $DEITY...

IFF you happen to buy a PC that can't switch of secure boot (which is something _you_ can actually select) then you can still boot operating systems that are signed, which ATM includes Linux. Other operating systems can also get a cryptographic key so that they can sign their systems.

And again: Microsoft doesn't require secure booting to be always on. What this means is simply that computer manufacturers have the option to ensure secure booting is always on. And even on a computer with it always on IT IS STILL POSSIBLE TO BOOT OTHER OPERATING SYSTEMS!!!

This isn't rocket science.

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Jupp3 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 26-Mar-2015 12:08:41
#27 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@megol

Quote:
which ATM includes Linux

Make that "some major linux distributions", and it's true. If you want some slightly more exotic one, or something completely different (such as AROS), you have a problem.

But unless self built systems (meaning, any separate component cannot act as a functional computer alone) go completely out from the market, there should always be more "open" options available.

The only thing that somewhat worries me: Is there any requirement for manufacturers to clearly state, their hardware won't allow disabling secure boot? If it's clearly stated f.ex. on the package, some more people, who aren't really that interested in other operating systems might still "vote with their wallet" because they agree, such unnecessary (for product functionality) restrictions are bad.

Those broken laptops I mentioned before surely didn't have any big "Warranty void if using Linux" sticker either.

Quote:
And again: Microsoft doesn't require secure booting to be always on.

Anga again: Microsoft has since 2012 required secure booting to be always on, on every single ARM-based Windows 8 system sold... (so this is quite old news...)

So basically this can negatively affect minor operating systems, that don't either have money, or simply don't want to pay for signing.

Also a very important thing to note is: None of this is final. This can definitely turn for better (or for worse...)

Last edited by Jupp3 on 26-Mar-2015 at 12:09 PM.

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megol 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 26-Mar-2015 12:30:18
#28 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 355
From: Unknown

@Jupp3

So suddenly ARM systems are PCs? Grow up.

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Jupp3 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 26-Mar-2015 13:22:19
#29 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@megol

Quote:
So suddenly ARM systems are PCs?

Of course. But I avoid that term (like I've done in this thread), because some people hold way more narrow meaning for it, which can lead to confusion.

I could stop right there, and ask you to provide a quote, where I called them "Personal Computers" or "PCs", but let's go on.

Personally I don't support in the version of history, where at some unspecified era, people started calling specifically "IBM Compatibles" "Personal Computers", and at that point, every other computer on the planet ceased being that (regardless if they were clearly labelled so, as f.ex. Commodore 64)

Is it programmable? It's a computer. Does it belong to me? Then it's personal.

But anyway, "PC or not" (I call them all computers anyway), I find this still on-topic, as it's very similar (just way worse) restiction, already imposed directly by Microsoft.

And if you think it's all very clear, it's not. Quite a few people have accidentally bought Windows RT (ARM) device, thinking it would be "normal windows computer" (although in most cases, people don't expect to upgrade the OS to something more usable, but rather expect the computer to be able to run what is commonly known as "Windows programs", which in most cases isn't the case)

And of course there are ARM devices, which are much closer to X86-based desktop computers, such as Raspberry Pi. If someone wanted to sell that with Windows 8 preinstalled, guess that wouldn't be possible. Of course Windows 10 supports it already, afaik. (and likely will have more relaxed license terms)

Last edited by Jupp3 on 26-Mar-2015 at 01:30 PM.
Last edited by Jupp3 on 26-Mar-2015 at 01:23 PM.

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Nibunnoichi 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 26-Mar-2015 14:24:09
#30 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Nov-2004
Posts: 969
From: Roma + Lecco, Italia

@Jupp3

Quote:

Jupp3 wrote:
Anga again: Microsoft has since 2012 required secure booting to be always on, on every single ARM-based Windows 8 system sold... (so this is quite old news...)

This basically means non-Pro first generation Surface with Windows RT in 99% of the cases so it isn't a big deal WRT running other OSes...

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Jupp3 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 26-Mar-2015 14:55:33
#31 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@Nibunnoichi

Quote:
This basically means non-Pro first generation Surface with Windows RT in 99% of the cases so it isn't a big deal WRT running other OSes...

Well, as everyone knows, Windows RT devices don't really sell much at all, so no sane manufacturer bothers to make them.

Some people just start yelling "EU won't allow such restrictions!1!" without realizing, there already are more strict restrictions in place (in some cases), and actually demanded by Microsoft, not by hardware manufacturers (like these discussed forthcoming restrictions will be)

So why wouldn't they (EU) be ok with these "new" restrictions?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 26-Mar-2015 15:29:47
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12796
From: Norway

@Jupp3

Quote:
So why wouldn't they (EU) be ok with these "new" restrictions?


EU is for open markets, and competition, they do not like monopolies. Companies are not above the governments and laws, not yet anyway.

Governments often use sheep solutions like Linux and citric Meta frame and stuff like that to cut costs, if they can, if they are forced to use MS only product it can possibly increase operation cost at schools and government buildings.

A friend of my told me that Apple was going to be forced allow MacOSX to run on none apple hardware, I cannot find any news about this and some times he comes up with imaginary stories.

Anyway EU and Australia has forced Apple to change their sales practices so warranty is allowed, so you can get refund on what you buy.

There hare has been several antitrust lawsuits over the years, forcing company's like MS and Apple to play by the rules. I expect rule-book will be changed if need.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/25/germany-france-nsa-spying-merkel-hollande-eu

I also think there is lack of trust between the EU and USA, after spy scandal, it might not be in EU interest to be forced to use operating systems from the USA for operation critical things.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Mar-2015 at 03:39 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Mar-2015 at 03:38 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Mar-2015 at 03:31 PM.

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megol 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 26-Mar-2015 16:45:04
#33 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 355
From: Unknown

Are you all fu***ing delusional?!?
This is MS caving in to computer manufacturers who want to ensure support costs can be under control. If you want a computer that you can install unsigned operating systems on - THEN BUY ONE!

That manufacturers want total control of "their" machines is well known, just look at the Lenovo whitelists that specifies exactly what network card is supported - not only to function or to get support - but to boot the machine!

But that's MS fault too, right?


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Jupp3 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 26-Mar-2015 21:05:31
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
EU is for open markets, and competition, they do not like monopolies. Companies are not above the governments and laws, not yet anyway.


Okay. Which of the computer manufacturers (that Microsoft is giving permission to restrict) would you (or EU) consider "too big monopoly"?

Also note, that currently Microsoft (so different entity than in future on Windows 10 machines) is resticting all Windows 8 ARM based computers much worse, and EU seems to be just fine with that.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 26-Mar-2015 21:42:08
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12796
From: Norway

@Jupp3

I do not speak for the EU, I just expect EU not keep their nose out of company politics.

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Jupp3 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 28-Mar-2015 0:54:59
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
I just expect EU not keep their nose out of company politics.

Just like they have kept their nose out of the restrictions that Microsoft has demanded on all ARM-based platforms, if the manufacturer wants to support Windows 8?

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megol 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 28-Mar-2015 9:58:34
#37 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 355
From: Unknown

@Jupp3

Okay so instead of allowing booting of signed operating systems you'd prefer the standard vendor lock-in? The kind of thing that requires getting root access via bugs in order to circumvent the security system? The kind that makes some products non-upgradable?

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Jupp3 
Re: Will Windows 10 block WINUAE??
Posted on 30-Mar-2015 21:27:45
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@megol

Quote:
Okay so instead of allowing booting of signed operating systems you'd prefer the standard vendor lock-in? The kind of thing that requires getting root access via bugs in order to circumvent the security system? The kind that makes some products non-upgradable?


Weird choice of words you just put in my mouth...

I'll try explain in plain:
If EU are ok with more strict restrictions now coming from a monopoly, why would they be againist more relaxed restrictions coming from various competiting hardware companies in the future?

As for the topic, will Microsoft block WinUAE? We don't know. there has been absolutely no discussion regarding blocking seemingly random 3rd party apps, I would seriously doubt that, as at best, that would make some people stay at Win7/8 instead of upgrading.

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