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g01df1sh 
Morphos X86
Posted on 20-May-2015 12:58:21
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1777
From: UK

Hi All

Found this today

http://www.osnews.com/story/28568/MorphOS_being_ported_to_x86_

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Leo 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 20-May-2015 13:22:27
#2 ]
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Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Old news, original message is here: https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=11137&post_id=118409&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&showonepost=1

AMD64 appears to have been chosen but it doesn't mean work has started...

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serk118 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 20-May-2015 15:17:58
#3 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Nov-2004
Posts: 685
From: London(uk)

sound like alot of copy and paste from aros main tree..

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Nicho 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 20-May-2015 15:31:24
#4 ]
Member
Joined: 7-Sep-2011
Posts: 16
From: Unknown

@serk118

No, it doesn't sound

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Robert 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 20-May-2015 15:38:37
#5 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 879
From: Glasgow

@g01df1sh

That's news to me and no bad thing.
Even cheaper laptops ahoy....

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KimmoK 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 20-May-2015 15:49:57
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

IIRC, already in SAKU2013 event I heard MorphOS core developer to speak like the decision was made. They would use AROS code where it makes sence.

And AMD64 means to me the same as x64. Indicating the use of the non-intel instruction set architecture that AMD developed. Not meaning that they would use AMD CPU. AT least some core developers prefer intel CPU.

But as the main GFX driver work for MorphOS happen for Radeon chips, I would bet that they end up supporting AMD's CPU with AMD GFX. (or they stay on PPC as long as it lives)

@Robert

I bought G4 MorphBook laptop for EUR50. So I do not believe that the laptop MorphOS team is going to support will be cheaper. It will cost EUR300 I presume...

" expect us to support one desktop motherboard (with one family of CPUs and GPUs) and one laptop. We'll of course make sure it's hardware that's actually available one way or another."

hmmm... https://www.crowdsupply.com/purism/librem-15 ??

Last edited by KimmoK on 20-May-2015 at 04:12 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 20-May-2015 at 03:54 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 20-May-2015 18:27:32
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@g01df1sh

Well, if you read threads on morphzone, you will know they didn´t started porting (yet). Even new target platform is not clear (some MorphOS developers prefer "x86", some ARM).

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cdimauro 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 20-May-2015 19:44:48
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:
IIRC, already in SAKU2013 event I heard MorphOS core developer to speak like the decision was made. They would use AROS code where it makes sence.

And AMD64 means to me the same as x64. Indicating the use of the non-intel instruction set architecture that AMD developed. Not meaning that they would use AMD CPU.

Exactly. AMD64 is the second term which was used for referring to the 64-bit x86 extension made by AMD. The first term was x86-64. Then was introduced x64 which is short and more brand-neutral.

P.S. Intel first used EM64T. Then IA-32e. But the last and official term is Intel64.

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cdimauro 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 20-May-2015 19:46:32
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@g01df1sh

Well, if you read threads on morphzone, you will know they didn´t started porting (yet). Even new target platform is not clear (some MorphOS developers prefer "x86", some ARM).

Doesn't make sense to target x86 or the 32-bit ARM ISA. If the MorphOS team has decided to change architecture, which will require some effort, it's better to directly go for a 64-bit platform.

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pavlor 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 20-May-2015 20:32:26
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
Doesn't make sense to target x86 or the 32-bit ARM ISA.


That is why I used "x86" istead of plain x86 (as in title of this thread).

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Senex 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 21-May-2015 6:44:32
#11 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 135
From: Unknown

Old news and nothing has been decided yet, as Mark Olsen told amiga-news.de back then.

http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2015-04-00035-EN.html

Last edited by Senex on 21-May-2015 at 06:45 AM.

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KimmoK 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 21-May-2015 7:48:46
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

My opinnion has been that we need NG branch to be parallell with the compatible branch.

If PowerPC disappears in 10 years, we better be ready.

I rather have the option to boot to legacy system when I need to, rather than use a frankenstein system.

Ideally we should have 64bit+multicore+memoryprotected NG that combines our R&D resources for the future. So far I do not see this happening.

IMO, if commercial flavors show no interest, AROS could & should focus 100% to the NG OS and stop being the yet another flavour of the old (trying to catch up). Perhaps by that way we would have AROS NG in 2015 ready to host legacy AOS and legacy MorphOS sandbox and all come under one roof.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxNz0P5oVk2wX3pJeGEyOC1aczQ/view

++
It has been often said that 64bit+multicore+memoryprotected is much harder/bigger change than the change of ISA, so that must be the number 1 focus. I see multicore support and 64bit mandatory already today for modern things I would love to do with AmigaLikeOS. The ISA change requires ONLY 1 month of work per OS, so it can be done when there is no other option, AFTER the big issues are solved.

+++
btw... in AEROS... I assume:
-AOS API compatible stuff run fine with multicore utilizing kernell + linux API SW
(linux API SW can use all cores)

Does AEROS use separated memory spaces for kernel / AOS API sandbox / linux apps?
(perhaps memory protection is disabled???)

Are AEROS Linux API SW (&kernel) already 64bit?
(perhaps everything is built to 32bit???)

(little bit silly that AROS already runs natively on ARM & x64 & PPC as well as hosted on modern kernell on those ISAs)

++++
Brings me back to the fact that we need that affordable low end PPC product today.
(multiple cores and 64bit, so that developers can solve the big issues with it)
Then that ISA talk can be put to aside for 10 years and 100% focus can be put to modernization and improvements.

Last edited by KimmoK on 21-May-2015 at 08:44 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 21-May-2015 at 08:11 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 21-May-2015 at 08:10 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 21-May-2015 at 08:08 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 21-May-2015 at 08:04 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 21-May-2015 at 08:03 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 21-May-2015 at 07:55 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 21-May-2015 at 07:55 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 21-May-2015 9:03:19
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

One OS for all. Nice idea but as you wrote not very propable (or better I think never). That has to do with big egos and technical and legal reasons. I tried to persuade the MorphOS camp to work together on the base (API, common standards for PCI, USB and so on) but even with that idea I ran against a concrete wall. Unfortunately it is a "hobby market" (nobody earns money and living with it) so everybody can afford to act this way. On a commercial markets the developers and companies would force the camps to work together or it would be the end of the camps. On this market there are no commercial companies anymore and the developer do it for fun in their spare time on their favorite platform (mostly only one) so pressure on the important persons is zero.

Regarding AROS, if you look at the Aros shortlog you see that some kind of multicore support is already in development. It is now done for ARM and Raspberry 2 to support the 4 cores but certainly all changes will be backported to at least X86 and propably X64. How far it will go is of course unknown to me. 64bit support is already there, on my personal todo list is to create a Aros Vision distribution for it (propably Linux hosted). ARM is very promising too (native version for Raspberry 2 in development). What others are doing/planning is unknown to me.

So multicore support and 64bit is already there or in development. Full "Memory protection" is another beast of course. But I think the first two would already bring considerable improvements to the platform.

Regarding Aeros I can only short answer as far as I know. Up to now there are not much available for 64bit, most components are compiled for X86 and now for 68k and ARM. So Aros on Aeros is certainly X86. "Hosted" means Aros runs as application, on Windows it runs as Windows application and on Linux as Linux application. Windows can run both X86 and X64 on X64, I do not know if the same is true for Linux. On Aeros Aros runs as application in Linux so memory protection is enabled but not active in Aros but only between Aros and the different other Linux applications.

But that can be better answered by Phoenixkonsole

On my personal near term list is a Aros Vision version for real amiga hardware and a 68k developer version (smaller than the big one) both ready or almost ready.

Then I will look at both ARM and X64 and a updated X86 version

Last edited by OlafS25 on 21-May-2015 at 09:11 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 21-May-2015 at 09:08 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 21-May-2015 at 09:08 AM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 21-May-2015 9:19:48
#14 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1204
From: Unknown

@serk118

Quote:
sound like alot of copy and paste from aros main tree..


No, definitely not!


@Leo

Quote:
AMD64 appears to have been chosen but it doesn't mean work has started...


Or they started four years ago already, and has been going on ever since...?

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=59765



It was indeed interesting to see how previous vague "if"'s were replaced by "when" and "we will" in bigfoot's post!


@Robert

Quote:
Even cheaper laptops ahoy....


Probably not cheaper than today's second hand Mac Laptops, but surely ahelluvalot more POWERFUL ones, with up-to-date GFX and peripheral standards!


@KimmoK

Quote:
They would use AROS code where it makes sence.


They did use AROS code where it made sense (you can download the source code here) but I seriously doubt any AROS code would offer what they need in this regard...

Quote:
And AMD64 means to me the same as x64. Indicating the use of the non-intel instruction set architecture that AMD developed. Not meaning that they would use AMD CPU.


"AMD64", "x86-64", "x64" or whatever is 100% the same thing (Wikipedia), they are only different names used to describe the same 64-bit x86 instruction set. It says NOTHING about choice of CPU manufacturer, which could be Intel, AMD or Via. Most certainly they will choose Intel, IMHO.

Quote:
But as the main GFX driver work for MorphOS happen for Radeon chips, I would bet that they end up supporting AMD's CPU with AMD GFX. (or they stay on PPC as long as it lives)


GFX driver development is a completely separate issue. The MorphOS Team has developed a lot of drivers during the years and also made many improvements and optimizations during the time, they are good at it, and with the release of MorphOS 3.8 the other day, they added support for the X1000 series of Radeon graphics cards, they supported the Sam460 built-in GFX, and they showed their ambition to develop drivers for HD2xxx/HD3xxx/HD4xxx/HD5xxx/HD6xxx series Radeon graphics cards for upcoming releases. These will work perfectly in any Intel based system. If wanted/needed they will probably support integrated Intel GFX as well. I don't see any issue here.


Quote:
I bought G4 MorphBook laptop for EUR50. So I do not believe that the laptop MorphOS team is going to support will be cheaper. It will cost EUR300 I presume


Integration level is becoming very high in the Intel x86 world, with many previous discrete controllers moved into the chipset and CPU. Support one chipset (say the Z97) and one CPU family (say 4th gen Socket-LGA1150 Core-i CPU's (Core i3/i5/i7)) and they will have covered a whole spectrum of offerings, ranging from cheap to very powerful, from a lot of manufacturers. The same goes for laptops. So €300 is possible, but perhaps also €2000 at the same time.

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OlafS25 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 21-May-2015 9:38:33
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

in a way unfortunately Aros is open source so even if they do not directly use Aros code they can benefit of the Aros experience and development without any contributions.

I myself regret that a little otherwise competition would be more fair (I thought different in the past but changed my mind there).

And how far they are is pure speculation from you. I read a comment from geit (I think it was last year) that they would use a ISA change to drop compatibility and it will take years to make that absorbing all development resources. At that time it seemed that it even was not sure if the ISA change would happen at all and they would not prefer to concentrate on PPC and improving MorphOS. So either he has lied or it will certainly need some time before it happens. They will also drop binary compatibility to 68k and use UAE for it (like on AROS). And when I understand it right there is no final decision yet what hardware will they use. For desktops X64 makes more sense of course but you never know how the market develops. As Aros user I am very calm there because I do not need to make a final decision there

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KimmoK 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 21-May-2015 9:43:43
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@TRIPOS


>So €300 is possible, but perhaps also €2000 at the same time.

bigfood informed about future GPU, CPU, motherboard and laptop:
"expect us to support one desktop motherboard (with one family of CPUs and GPUs) and one laptop."

It would seem insane to support just one €2000 laptop.
To get more users they must support something reasonable and affordable.

>from a lot of manufacturers.

bigfood said that initially only one motherboard will be supported. So only one manufacturer.

Also this limits the options:
"We'll of course make sure it's hardware that's actually available one way or another."

So I'm 100% sure they will not target just any off the self motherboard.
They target some special motherboard that has been given warranty of longer availability and support (for example some industrial x86 motherboard or a custom made motherboard, not any of the cheapest ones on the local shop).

++
I have also learned that MorphOS team is a pool of perfectionists. So, to me, that ensures that we would see one 100% supported, insanely stable and heavily optimized OS + HW combination as the suppported new ISA motherboard + laptop, before anything else is tried to be supported.

Last edited by KimmoK on 21-May-2015 at 09:54 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 21-May-2015 at 09:45 AM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 21-May-2015 10:04:45
#17 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1204
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
in a way unfortunately Aros is open source so even if they do not directly use Aros code they can benefit of the Aros experience and development without any contributions.


AFAIK the MorphOS Team has always been very open about what parts from AROS they used (unlike some other dudes). And in the early days (when this happened) they also helped develop/improve/correct that AROS code so that compatibility was improved before handing it back. Again, the source code for the open source components can be downloaded from here.

Suggesting that the MorphOS Team would be sneaky/greedy and stealthily use "superior AROS technology and knowledge" like some thieves at night, is not very nice. It's not like the world lacks knowledge about various models for SMP, scheduling, memory management, etc. They just have to pick whatever model they seem best, cleanest and most efficient. There is no need to steal body parts from the old "Franken-AROS" you know...


Quote:
And how far they are is pure speculation from you.


Of course, but some kind of "mission statement" (or at least ambition) WAS stated in a public presentation almost four years ago. And you hoping that nothing at all has happened during all this time is speculation as well, just in the other direction!

For the time being it doesn't matter, the OS continues to evolve on the PPC. And who knows, maybe it will become the first "Amiga" OS released for the AMIGA one x 5000?

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OlafS25 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 21-May-2015 10:08:39
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

I do not care who wins on PPC

And I talked about experience how to integrate it in a Amiga framework and API not sources. Knowing how SMP general works does not much help there.

BTW in many aspects MorphOS is as "FRANKEN" as AROS

How much RAM is supported right now?

MESA/Gallium?

64bit?

SMP already there?

No need of the typical "we are simply the best" attitude

And "announcements" on a public forum are easy done, talk is cheap. The comment from geit was recently

Last edited by OlafS25 on 21-May-2015 at 10:13 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 21-May-2015 at 10:10 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 21-May-2015 at 10:10 AM.

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KimmoK 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 21-May-2015 10:12:44
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@OlafS25

Thanks for your reply. Gave again some good info.

UPDATE->
>never). That has to do with big egos and technical and legal reasons

Plan B: Go so far ahead that it is ridiculous to use any other flavour of Amiga, then users do what ego's could not.
So multicore support and 64bit is already there or in development. Full "Memory protection" is another beast of course. But I think the first two would already bring considerable improvements to the platform.

Nice to know & I agree.

>On Aeros Aros runs as application in Linux so memory protection is enabled but not active in Aros but only between Aros and the different other Linux applications.

I was hoping that. It then "proves" (again) that there is a way to build NG AmigaLike system with memory protection.

@ AROS developers

You are some damn super engineers it seems. Anyone thinking how some amigalike can be made to be "a leading OS", should not look any further. Just follow you guys and we get it in a few lifetimes.

(just sooner if there would be more focus on NG?)

Last edited by KimmoK on 21-May-2015 at 10:23 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 21-May-2015 at 10:20 AM.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
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OlafS25 
Re: Morphos X86
Posted on 21-May-2015 10:19:44
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

it would be easier if they say forget everything from the past and make something new but then most existing software would not work or would have to be adapted. That is expecially the case for memory protection what heavily collides with the way the old Amiga API implemented it. So not very propable in the foreseeable future in my view.

64bit support (by software) is only at the beginning because there were no distributions for it up to now. Terminills has told me (if I remember right) more than 120 GB RAM in 64bit right now. Sounds nice, doesn´t it?

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