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      /  Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
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pavlor 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 28-Aug-2015 20:12:52
#81 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
Was its Kickstart marketed as 3.1? Honestly I don't remember.


Yes, Kickstart 3.1 was introduced with CD32.

Quote:
Anyway, it doesn't change the picture. I fail to see how an Amiga 1000, 500, etc. EXCEPT CD32 "wasn't restricted to bit plane gfx" (cit.).


Well, yes, of course.

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cdimauro 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 28-Aug-2015 20:19:23
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote:
@Aslak3

And, btw, Coldfire would tend to disprove the idea that the 68000 was not scalable.

Because Motorola removed A LOT of stuff, and limited instructions length to only 3 words maximum.

Quote:

iggy wrote:
@cdimauro

Yes the '286 was competitive with the 68000, but not the 68020.

The 68020 had a 32-bit bus and an instruction cache.

Anyway, I'm interested on taking a look at some benchmark.
Quote:
And the '286 was a lousy processor for a multi-tasking OS.

The 286 implemented hardware support for task switching and o.s. calls, with 4 levels of isolations (rings).

It's a piece of cake for o.s. designers.
Quote:
Windows 3.0/3.1 was only recommended for '386 and above.

It depends on your target. They worked also for/with an 8086. And took advantage of a 286 (more memory addressable).
Quote:
Even the 68000 was a better choice for more advanced OS'.

It had no memory protection at all...

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cdimauro 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 28-Aug-2015 20:30:01
#83 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
You needed the shifting (and masking) only if you wanted to address any memory location having the absolute 1MB address.


I had this old PC book once that taught how to do it in assembler. Can't find it now. But I couldn't get my head around it. It just didn't make sense as it was moving an address four bits to the left. I couldn't see how shifting it by a nibble was useful and looked like it would corrupt. A byte, maybe, a word, sure. But mostly I probably wondered why the straight address wasn't just plonked into a register.

You can do it: use one of segment registers holding only the topmost 4 bits of the address, and then use the offset to provide the bottom 16-bits.

But segmentation was a pain, for sure. I loved and love linear addressing of the memory.
Quote:
Quote:
Unfortunately bitplanes had a big drawback too: they wasted a lot of memory bandwidth,


They would have as 16-bits or pixels would have been read in at one time which meant four reads from differnet locations for 16 colours. 8 bytes total. For a depth of 8 it's 16 bytes total. So the same amount read in if it was chunky which would have been in sequencial order. So I think it could have worked.

It's not the same. At the same depth, packed modes are always better than of bitplanes, both for space (reduced alignment required) and bandwidth (again, better alignment and pixels are sequentially accessed).

I had a long discussion at amigacoding.de regarding this argument, and you can find a much more detailed proof of it, with some examples too, if you're interested.
Quote:
Quote:
The problem is that the Blitter is bitplane-based,


It is yes. It would have had to be updated. So that it would write bit patterns across to match a pallete index for lines, which it could almost do as it had bit pattern support. And images would need a bitmask to represent multiples of packed data going across with an extended width to acount for the extra data. But still being able to specify X,Y and W,H of destination would have helped to do a warped blit. Which would have helped with texture mapped games doing it by hand. And optimised that scale routine in the OS.

Yes but, as I said before, you're asking for a new Blitter, which is more complex too. For the OCS era bitplanes were fine, but at the end of '80s packed modes were a necessity.

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pavlor 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 28-Aug-2015 20:36:22
#84 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
Anyway, I'm interested on taking a look at some benchmark.


ATT PC6300+, MSDOS 3.1, 80286 6.0 MHz: 0.81 DMIPS (1.1)
IBM PC/STD, MSDOS 3.0, 80286 8Mhz, Microsoft 3.0 (compiler): 1.01 DMIPS (1.1)

Sun 3/160C, Sun 3.0, 68020 16.7 MHz: 2.4 DMIPS (1.1)

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cdimauro 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 28-Aug-2015 20:38:23
#85 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Was its Kickstart marketed as 3.1? Honestly I don't remember.


Yes, Kickstart 3.1 was introduced with CD32.

I know it. But it wasn't marketed as 3.1, AFAIK.

However time is passed, and I might be wrong.

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cdimauro 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 28-Aug-2015 20:41:00
#86 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Anyway, I'm interested on taking a look at some benchmark.


ATT PC6300+, MSDOS 3.1, 80286 6.0 MHz: 0.81 DMIPS (1.1)
IBM PC/STD, MSDOS 3.0, 80286 8Mhz, Microsoft 3.0 (compiler): 1.01 DMIPS (1.1)

Sun 3/160C, Sun 3.0, 68020 16.7 MHz: 2.4 DMIPS (1.1)

Thanks. Clock for clock it's not far away.

However, and as you know, I prefer real-world benchmarks to synthetic ones.

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pavlor 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 28-Aug-2015 20:41:05
#87 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
I know it. But it wasn't marketed as 3.1, AFAIK.


Yesterday I read usenet discussions from that day, it was clearly called Kickstart 3.1...

Quote:
However time is passed, and I might be wrong.


Correct.

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pavlor 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 28-Aug-2015 20:41:53
#88 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
However, and as you know, I prefer real-world benchmarks to synthetic ones.


You called for "benchmark", I gave one...

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cdimauro 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 28-Aug-2015 20:44:16
#89 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
I know it. But it wasn't marketed as 3.1, AFAIK.


Yesterday I read usenet discussions from that day, it was clearly called Kickstart 3.1...

Formally? That's why I used the term "marketed".

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cdimauro 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 28-Aug-2015 20:44:47
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
However, and as you know, I prefer real-world benchmarks to synthetic ones.


You called for "benchmark", I gave one...

Owned.

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pavlor 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 28-Aug-2015 22:16:04
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
Formally? That's why I used the term "marketed".


Well, ROM itself has inscription "V3.1 (40.60)"...

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Rob 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 28-Aug-2015 23:10:19
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales

@cdimauro

The Commodore Amiga 4000T also shipped with 3.1. According to information available on the web, the Kickstart ROM for the 4000T included a SCSI 2 driver with workbench.library be moved onto the Workbench disk.

I can't find any pics of Commodore A4000T disks and manuals on the web.

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iggy 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 29-Aug-2015 2:11:58
#93 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

[quote]Anyway, I'm interested on taking a look at some benchmark.


ATT PC6300+, MSDOS 3.1, 80286 6.0 MHz: 0.81 DMIPS (1.1)
IBM PC/STD, MSDOS 3.0, 80286 8Mhz, Microsoft 3.0 (compiler): 1.01 DMIPS (1.1)

Sun 3/160C, Sun 3.0, 68020 16.7 MHz: 2.4 DMIPS (1.1)

Thanks. Clock for clock it's not far away.

However, and as you know, I prefer real-world benchmarks to synthetic ones. [/quote]

Hilarious, he proves that point and you dismiss it out of hand.
Further, I have worked with both processors, and the '286 was NOT capable of running the real time multitasking apps we were developing.
The '386, even the '386SX, was.
You want real world?
I was working with it.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 29-Aug-2015 2:15:50
#94 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

Doesn't matter if its 3rd party, or if Amiga graphics cards are really pc graphics cards or whatever.

Simple fact of the matter is Amiga wasn't restricted to bitplane graphics.
Use all the semantics you like. It doesn't change this fact.

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cdimauro 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 29-Aug-2015 9:55:31
#95 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Formally? That's why I used the term "marketed".


Well, ROM itself has inscription "V3.1 (40.60)"...


@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote:
@cdimauro

The Commodore Amiga 4000T also shipped with 3.1. According to information available on the web, the Kickstart ROM for the 4000T included a SCSI 2 driver with workbench.library be moved onto the Workbench disk.

I can't find any pics of Commodore A4000T disks and manuals on the web.

That was the thing that I was interested to know.

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blizz1220 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 29-Aug-2015 10:07:50
#96 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Here :

http://s55.photobucket.com/user/Odd_Job/media/Manuals02.jpg.html

Enjoy photo enhancing

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cdimauro 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 29-Aug-2015 10:09:21
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
@pavlor

However, and as you know, I prefer real-world benchmarks to synthetic ones.


Hilarious, he proves that point and you dismiss it out of hand.

As I said, I don't like synthetic benchmark (and not from now, but from very long time, as pavlor also knows), because they say nothing concretely.

Real applications are much better to understand how a processor performs in specific scenarios, which are the ones used by customers.
Quote:
Further, I have worked with both processors, and the '286 was NOT capable of running the real time multitasking apps we were developing.

That's a different thing compared to what you stated before, but you gave no other information, and anyway it's a single scenario (you cannot generalize the result to any other scenario).
Quote:
The '386, even the '386SX, was.

Not always. On 16-bit code the 80286 performed well. Take a look here.

In fact, the 80386 wasn't always faster than the 80286, especially running privileged / controlled instructions. Here are reported the instruction timings of all processors up to the 80486 (here you can find the data for the TS value, which is needed to calculate the timings for task-switching scenarios), and it's quite evident that the latter performed better, except for 5 instructions which are rarely used in protected mode and the difference is represented by a few clock cycles.
Quote:
You want real world?
I was working with it.

I haven't seen any data from you: not even a description of your scenario.

P.S. I'm finding you a bit harsh in the last days. It seems to me that your behavior changed after our discussions about religion...

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cdimauro 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 29-Aug-2015 10:14:20
#98 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@fishy_fis

Quote:

fishy_fis wrote:
Doesn't matter if its 3rd party, or if Amiga graphics cards are really pc graphics cards or whatever.

Simple fact of the matter is Amiga wasn't restricted to bitplane graphics.
Use all the semantics you like. It doesn't change this fact.

With this point-of-view, any system can support anything...

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cdimauro 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 29-Aug-2015 10:15:29
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@blizz1220

Quote:

blizz1220 wrote:
@cdimauro

Here :

http://s55.photobucket.com/user/Odd_Job/media/Manuals02.jpg.html

Enjoy photo enhancing

Thanks, but with all the effort that I can put, I fail to read some useful text (regarding the discussion) from that picture.

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blizz1220 
Re: Q . If you could go back in time with eight billion pounds world you buy out commodore 64 and Amiga
Posted on 29-Aug-2015 10:41:06
#100 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/media/manuals/A4000T.pdf

I see "Workbench" and "AmigaDOS" mentioned.

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