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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  WinUAE OS41 FE
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PosterThread
AmigaBlitter 
WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 28-Oct-2015 17:06:51
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3512
From: Unknown

Hello everyone,

i had the opportunity to try the OS4.1 FE emulation on an old laptop (dual core Intel) and it's not fast, but still useable.

I replicated my dev enviroment with codebench and so on... and tried

I have t say that is Amazing! Just imagine if i would have a Core I7 laptop.

I think that if Hyperion fires up a patch for the memory and a proper video driver... they could sell Licences in order of thousands.

Just think about if the partial jit qemu code will be fully JIT.

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 28-Oct-2015 17:11:27
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:
Just think about if the partial jit qemu code will be fully JIT.




Quote:
I think that if Hyperion fires up a patch for the memory and a proper video driver... they could sell Licences in order of thousands.


Sounds logical, that is why it will never happen.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 28-Oct-2015 17:21:53
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3512
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 28-Oct-2015 at 05:22 PM.

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Massi 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 28-Oct-2015 17:22:51
#4 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 627
From: Rome, Italy

@AmigaBlitter

Yep, it really feels like there is much room for the emulation to be improved and this is only a question of time.

That said, as far as I know, OS4 emulated is not officially supported.

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TheAMIgaOne 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 28-Oct-2015 17:57:54
#5 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Jan-2004
Posts: 776
From: United Kingdom

@Massi

Not officially supported, and won't be anytime soon from the sounds of Hyperion at the Amiga30th.

Although I think Trevor would support the idea.

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bison 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 28-Oct-2015 21:22:12
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@TheAMIgaOne

Quote:
Although I think Trevor would support the idea.

I think he may have said as much, or was at least open to the suggestion.

Update: No, sorry -- that was Seven Solie. It's in one of the recent videos.

Last edited by bison on 28-Oct-2015 at 09:23 PM.

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Overflow 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 28-Oct-2015 23:23:15
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1628
From: Norway

During a presenation Cloanto mentioned improving PPC support thru Amiga Forever thru some cooporation/talks with Toni.

Wether or not they have concrete plans, who knows.

Just had a look at some old Cloanto youtube videos, and it seems like they and Trevor goes way back.

Last edited by Overflow on 28-Oct-2015 at 11:27 PM.

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Hans 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 29-Oct-2015 1:15:02
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
Quote:
I think that if Hyperion fires up a patch for the memory and a proper video driver... they could sell Licences in order of thousands.


Sounds logical, that is why it will never happen.


Personally, I think that Hyperion should focus on the OS, and not add working on an emulator to the list of things for the OS developers to work on. The developers of UAE have proven that they can deliver improvements; I'm pretty sure that they could emulate a machine with more RAM and a better video card, provided that the interest is there. Before anyone says "no they can't," please remember that there was a time when "everyone knew" that emulating an Amiga was impossible.

Hans

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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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wawa 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 29-Oct-2015 1:52:30
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:
Personally, I think that Hyperion should focus on the OS, and not add working on an emulator to the list of things for the OS developers to work on. The developers of UAE have proven that they can deliver improvements; I'm pretty sure that they could emulate a machine with more RAM and a better video card, provided that the interest is there. Before anyone says "no they can't," please remember that there was a time when "everyone knew" that emulating an Amiga was impossible.


same as me, dont give them peasants anything. let them beg.

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Hans 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 29-Oct-2015 3:04:45
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@Hans

Quote:
Personally, I think that Hyperion should focus on the OS, and not add working on an emulator to the list of things for the OS developers to work on. The developers of UAE have proven that they can deliver improvements; I'm pretty sure that they could emulate a machine with more RAM and a better video card, provided that the interest is there. Before anyone says "no they can't," please remember that there was a time when "everyone knew" that emulating an Amiga was impossible.


same as me, dont give them peasants anything. let them beg.




Not sure where you get that idea from, but that's not what I said at all. I don't think that the UAE team needs Hyperion's help, and the AmigaOS 4 dev team certainly don't need yet another project pulling resources away from what they're already working on.

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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cdimauro 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 29-Oct-2015 6:02:11
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@Overflow

Quote:

Overflow wrote:
During a presenation Cloanto mentioned improving PPC support thru Amiga Forever thru some cooporation/talks with Toni.

Wether or not they have concrete plans, who knows.

IMO what you can expect is that Toni will add new, more powerful, graphic cards emulation to WinUAE. He already said that it was trying to extract the Voodoo 3 core from MAME, but it seems to be a very difficult task.

Regarding PowerPC stuff, if you follow EAB, you can see that he systematically refuses to put his hands on PowerPC code, and from very long time. So, I don't think that he changes his mind.


@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:

Sounds logical, that is why it will never happen.


Personally, I think that Hyperion should focus on the OS, and not add working on an emulator to the list of things for the OS developers to work on. The developers of UAE have proven that they can deliver improvements; I'm pretty sure that they could emulate a machine with more RAM and a better video card, provided that the interest is there. Before anyone says "no they can't," please remember that there was a time when "everyone knew" that emulating an Amiga was impossible.

Hans

See above: UAE developers will take care of the graphic cards.

But at least you can release the kernel version which supports Z3 RAM as regular memory instead of using it as swap area. It seems (according to Costel) that you already have it, so why don't you release it? And even without an existing patch, it's trivial to create it for an OS4 developer, especially for the guy which worked to ExecSG.

What is clear, instead, is that you do NOT want to do it...

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Hans 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 29-Oct-2015 7:35:37
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
See above: UAE developers will take care of the graphic cards.

That's point proven then.

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
But at least you can release the kernel version which supports Z3 RAM as regular memory instead of using it as swap area. It seems (according to Costel) that you already have it, so why don't you release it? And even without an existing patch, it's trivial to create it for an OS4 developer, especially for the guy which worked to ExecSG.

What is clear, instead, is that you do NOT want to do it...

By "you" I assume that you mean Hyperion, and not me because:
a) I'm not in a position to make any such decision; and
b) I have zero involvement with the "classic" version of AmigaOS 4.x, and therefore have no idea if the patch you speak of actually exists. Nor do I have a clue as to how easy/hard such a patch would be.

Hans

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Deniil715 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 29-Oct-2015 15:01:57
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4236
From: Sweden

@cdimauro

Quote:
But at least you can release the kernel version which supports Z3 RAM as regular memory instead of using it as swap area. It seems (according to Costel) that you already have it, so why don't you release it? And even without an existing patch, it's trivial to create it for an OS4 developer, especially for the guy which worked to ExecSG.


Isn't Amiga supposed to have "AutoConfig"? Doesn't that mean that one could simply insert any virtual card (like a memory bank), have the Amiga ROM AutoConfigure it into a suitable memory space and have the bootstrap map it to the list of RAM available in the machine? Is there really need for support from Exec in this? Doesn't it just get the memory list from ROM (i.e. UAE)?

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 29-Oct-2015 15:57:06
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Hans

WinUAE emulates 1+ GB Fast RAM, but OS4 explicitly forbids use of Z3 RAM as normal Fast RAM. Only OS4 developers can remove this limitation (it would be really simple...).

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 29-Oct-2015 15:58:57
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Deniil715

Where you put your new RAM? OS4 supports only accellerator Fast RAM - not motherboard RAM and not Z3 RAM.

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 29-Oct-2015 15:59:54
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
Regarding PowerPC stuff, if you follow EAB, you can see that he systematically refuses to put his hands on PowerPC code, and from very long time. So, I don't think that he changes his mind.


For someone with such PowerPC fobia, he did really great work!

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Birbo 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 29-Oct-2015 16:00:05
#17 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Apr-2007
Posts: 594
From: Zurich, Switzerland

@pavlor

Did already someone ask kindly Hyperion, if that would be possible?

(removing the RAM limitation in AmigaOS 4)

Last edited by Birbo on 29-Oct-2015 at 04:01 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 29-Oct-2015 16:03:19
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Birbo

Quote:
Did already someone ask kindly Hyperion, if that would be possible?


Yes.

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Hans 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 29-Oct-2015 20:39:11
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@Hans

WinUAE emulates 1+ GB Fast RAM, but OS4 explicitly forbids use of Z3 RAM as normal Fast RAM. Only OS4 developers can remove this limitation (it would be really simple...).

OS4 doesn't "forbid" anything; the AmigaOS 4.x classic developers realised that the Z3 RAM in real hardware is too slow, and wisely chose to use it as swap space instead. If you were using real hardware you wouldn't consider this a limitation at all.

Has anyone actually tried using Z3 RAM as swap under WinUAE? While not ideal, a PC's RAM bandwidth is many times that of even the fastest RAM classic hardware let alone the bandwidth of actual Z3 RAM modules. I'd expect any paging to still be faster than on a real machine. A clever developer might even be able to skip the actual copies by reassigning which memory block points to which page. The emulator should be able to detect when paging occurs (accesses to Z3 RAM should be blatantly obvious), and react accordingly.

Quote:
Only OS4 developers can remove this limitation (it would be really simple...).

Not being an OS developer hasn't stopped people in the past...

Hans


P.S., I'm not actually against enabling Z3 RAM as Fast RAM for emulation (assuming that it's as trivial as what people who have never seen the code claim); I'm just reacting to the "explicitly forbids" bit.

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE OS41 FE
Posted on 29-Oct-2015 20:48:01
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:
Has anyone actually tried using Z3 RAM as swap under WinUAE? While not ideal, a PC's RAM bandwidth is many times that of even the fastest RAM classic hardware let alone the bandwidth of actual Z3 RAM modules. I'd expect any paging to still be faster than on a real machine.


SWAP is as fast as Fast RAM, of course... Problem is swap doesn´t work reliably in OS4 (at least in WinUAE).

Quote:
I'm just reacting to the "explicitly forbids" bit.


As we have no choice, our prefered way is "explicitly forbidden".

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