@wawa

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ng user that returns to amiga must know its limitations, how should he be disappointed?

Since when are Amiga users reasonable people?

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painting and color conversion in ppaint is an example of a task, you hardly need an ng for,

Again, you must be joking. PPaint works muuuuuuuuuch faster on NG than on any real Classic machine. I don´t want to wait because of Classic purism.

@wawa

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but the concept of a computer not built of just off the shelf components developed by specialized external providers.

That would be not an issue, if one could change GFX without loss of software compatibility.

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os4 hardware

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the only actual difference to a generic pc is just the processor used.

Sure, it would be better to use "x86" boards, but choices are limited with PowerPC only OS. Note I don´t see any advantages of the old Amiga design in our time. Current PowerPC SoCs offer plenty of useful features (PCIe, USB, LAN, SATA) albeit with slow main CPU (well, light speed fast in comparison to Classic). If AmigaOnes were mass-produced with price under 500 USD, nobody would care about their design limitations (like slower RAM access on the X5000).

@pavlor

Reading what Hans has written about there is some room for improvement, if AmigaOS4.x get GART support.

https://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/GART/

It was first talked about with AmigaONE-XE with AGP slot, then it steam to be put on back burner, maybe because AmigaONE-XE/SE was not the best of hardware.

Not the topic seams to resurface with "PCIe" graphic cards.

One thing is clear we not fully taking advantage of new hardware, there are thing that is not fully optimized yet.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Sep-2017 at 12:13 PM.

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@wawa

Yes it about looking back on era, an era that has passed. AGA/ECS/OCS was one of Amiga uniqueness, sure we simulate it, emulate it and do all kinds of things today on modern hardware, there is not need to redesign the old chipsets today, there like 1000 devices that run UAE, but there is no future in looking back.

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@pavlor

Quote:

Since when are Amiga users reasonable people?

so you are avoiding the question? how unexpected. now im really convinced you are trying to construct a case.

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Again, you must be joking. PPaint works muuuuuuuuuch faster on NG than on any real Classic machine. I don´t want to wait because of Classic purism.

if its too bothersome to you to use amiga software on an actual amiga, and all that counts is speed, take uae on windows, or even use some popular cross platform tool instead of some old amiga software, i have been working quite a deal with grafx2, and i can strongly recommend that.

@pavlor

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That would be not an issue, if one could change GFX without loss of software compatibility.

thats assumably what vampire/aros is going to deliver.

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If AmigaOnes were mass-produced with price under 500 USD, nobody would care about their design limitations (like slower RAM access on the X5000).

a lot of people are taking the word of tabor being under 400.- . there have been polls on that. now, vampire is already covering this price segment, where the pure computing power isnt the main argument. and judging by response it seems much more sexy than tabor. not to mention technical reasons, like the memory performance a1s seem to be traditionally crippled on.

@wawa

Yes but even so Tabor is going to be faster than a Vampire, sure its comparing apple vs orange.

AMD graphics better for modern program (3D Graphics).
Vampire AGA better for old software (2D graphics).

It is basically two different product aimed different kinds of users.

The videos we have seen for Tabor so far has disproved my biggest fear, that lack of normal FPGA put it to a crawl, that’s not the case. It has FPU it might not be the one we are used too, but at least you can recompile program to make proper use of it.

Vampire at the moment lacks FPU, lots of Amiga programs came in two versions with or without FPU support, FPU's are great for 3D graphics (3d modeling and CAD), if your only going to play 2D games, I'm sure you wont notice.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Sep-2017 at 12:59 PM.

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@wawa

Sure, way not TVPaint instead of PPaint,

Everyone has their favorite program, I'm more into GIMP myself, maybe I should check out Sketch block. It seams to be nice program. Or maybe fix my own paint program PublicPaint, sadly I made horrible design decisions on that one.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Sep-2017 at 01:08 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Sep-2017 at 01:04 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

vampire v4 has fpu and might be fast enough to attract paople whether tabor is faster or not, because its tabor that actually lacks backward compatible fpu and needs to emulate 68k code anyway. this will likely remain a major issue with the board, jsut another problem introduced to os4 platform needlessly.

what concerns the choice of open graphics program, have look at krita. gimp is simply to dumb to even mention for any actual graphics usage. there is more good open alternatives btw, im just mentioning _my_ favourite.

Last edited by wawa on 30-Sep-2017 at 01:14 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 30-Sep-2017 at 01:14 PM.

@wawa

For me there two types of 68K programs.
Bad ones, and Good ones.

Bad ones:
* Because they need screen modes like 320x200,
* Because they don't support AHI.
* Because they don't support True color modes.
* Suck because they flicker.
* And they are poorly tested, crash the system, not tested under memory protection.
* Supports only Topaz 8 font.
* don't lock bitmap before changing it or checking pixel format.
* can't be promoted hard-coded to fixed BytesPerRow.
* poke the hardware like joystick ports
* poke CIAA/CIAB timer registers, and mess with interrupts.
* use hardware blit and fill, instead of graphic.library
* Don't check if library was successfully opened, instead crash the computer nice Red Guru mediation.
* Depends on hacks to work.
* only works on AmigaOS1.3 and not on AmigaOS2.0 or up.

Good ones:
* Support selecting screen modes.
* Support True color modes.
* Support AHI (if its music program).
* Are tested under mug wall under development.
* Is often written in C and not assembler.
* Allows me to pick a font

if program sucks I then I pick on that don't suck, or one that is Native to AmigaOS and not to its hardware.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Sep-2017 at 01:39 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Sep-2017 at 01:32 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Sep-2017 at 01:24 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Sep-2017 at 01:23 PM.

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@wawa

Quote:

so you are avoiding the question?

You asked ng user that returns to amiga must know its limitations, how should he be disappointed?

I tried to point out that Amiga users doon´t follow simple path of reason.

care to mention an example?

If someone leaves the scene, you can´t find traces of him anymore... There are few people I know with NG-Classic-NG way (no names please).

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if its too bothersome to you to use amiga software on an actual amiga

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and all that counts is speed

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take uae on windows

That is my option right now, until I buy an AmigaOne. Sure, UAE is nice, but not that satisfying as real hardware.

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i have been working quite a deal with grafx2, and i can strongly recommend that.

Thanks, will try that one. However, I´m used to PPaint/DPaint/TvPaint combination, I don´t think I want to learn how to use another application.

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thats assumably what vampire/aros is going to deliver.

Now I´m sure you can´t write this with hard face... RTG and compatibility are problems solved long time ago. NG OS for OS compliant applications, integrated UAE for the rest.

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there have been polls on that. now, vampire is already covering this price segment, where the pure computing power isnt the main argument.

Well, you need pure computing power at least for basic web browsing which is not possible with slow Vampire CPU. Don´t fool yourself by Gunnar´s "benchmarks". Integer performance of Vampire is at best at 1/20 of Tabor.

@NutsAboutAmiga

there are things i agree on your list, however not in all points. certainly checking a program against memory violation should be condered necessary. though there is a number of good programs that produce hits, lucily mostly only illegal reads that dont matter much if the application itself doesnt crash upon that.

though, demands like relaying on ahi, which wasnt even part of the system api but a third party contribution, at least at the time the programs were coded, is an impossible and simply unreasonable demand. in many cases amiga programs were coded against a fixed architecture, instead of an abstracted system. if they dont work with your amigaone today, its because they never were meant for such a foreign system. the fault is on part of amigaone architecture, which relies on such a software pool, that was never ment for it, because it has no native alternatives or replacements, not on part of the coders that wrote their software for amiga once upon a time.

the best thing, in such a situation, where you are hopelessly dependant on an "outdated" software proposal, is to hold on to every opportunity of preserving backwards compatibility. thats the path 68k improvements like vampire, fpga arcade, mist and the like are going. as soon as you break it, simply trying to convince the majority of "undead" amiga developers to rewrite their stuff is going to end in vain and tears. especially if you break your platform soon enough again, as it seems to happen with tabor. no amount of nameless linux ports is going to fix this situation, alas.

@pavlor

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no names please

no names required. nicks are enough. lets hit the table and summon the spirits. vox? tlsom? DAX? where are you? what do you think?

Last edited by wawa on 30-Sep-2017 at 07:40 PM.

@pavlor

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Thanks, will try that one. However, I´m used to PPaint/DPaint/TvPaint combination, I don´t think I want to learn how to use another application.

tv paint is a whole different cathegory. its a 24 bit package that has been programmed in such a flexible way, that it may still happen to work on systems that it initially werent designed for.

dpaint and ppaint are the true counterpart and inspiration to grafx2. in fact with grafx you will feel yourself at home immediately, even if he interface is different, bacause the concept and the feeling is similar to the both aforementioned. grafx is my choice of app to mess with amiga planar icon images, even if it needs them converted to planar iff before. but you need to check out yourself.

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Now I´m sure you can´t write this with hard face... RTG and compatibility are problems solved long time ago. NG OS for OS compliant applications, integrated UAE for the rest.

so its solved when using ms windows or linux. i dont need expensive wannabe a1 hardware to run both current apps (and i mean a vast choice of those, against some few half working open source ports) and emulated amiga programs. straight face.

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Well, you need pure computing power at least for basic web browsing which is not possible with slow Vampire CPU. Don´t fool yourself by Gunnar´s "benchmarks". Integer performance of Vampire is at best at 1/20 of Tabor.

gunnars benchmarks aside, tabor wont give you any full experience of both worlds. it wont be enough what the net demands today, and neither it will be enough to satisfactory replace the genuine amiga, stuff an off the shelf pc couldnt do magnitudes better. where is the selling point?

@wawa

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though, demands like relaying on ahi, which wasnt even part of the system api

Yes there is audio.device, so there no excuse, to not use API, AHI just better then audio.device, that's all.

There is not a lot options on Amiga, on Linux there OSS, Alsa and PulseAudio, RoarAudio.

Sure AHI might not be the most advanced sound system, but its the best we have on AmigaOS.

Write directly to hardware is just bad idea from the beginning, this what bad programmers do, they make program that are so limited, can take advantage of better sound cards or hardware.

If your making a game you can use OpenAL, its standard on any OS, but OpenAL is just wrapper for what ever native sound system that OS has.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Sep-2017 at 08:23 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

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AHI just better then audio.device, that's all.

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but its the best we have on AmigaOS.

you can redirect audio device in hardware to more capable extended one, wgile preserved register set, in fact as capable as the generic 16bit soudcard offerings in hardware, and thats what vampire is delivering, at least to my understanding.

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Write directly to hardware is just bad idea from the beginning,

even banging hardware would be solved that way. no a1 hardware ever is going to provide this level of compatibility.

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can take advantage of better sound cards or hardware.

actually if it fits my expectations, it could. in parallel. no issue. again, a1 based on generic pc stuff wont deliver this feature.

@wawa

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even banging hardware would be solved that way. no a1 hardware ever is going to provide this level of compatibility.

But then never be able to take advantage of USB mixers, optical audio out, or digital audio out, you be limited to the stereo audio output, not DTS, no Surround Sound.
what about Mic input, Line inn, and things like that.

The original Amiga sound chips where limited, only 4 channel sound, this makes it hard to use, you need to use one channel of sound effects, that leaves you with 3 channels for music. OpenAL complicity solves that for you.

When there are good API ready to use, and developer choose not it show there lack of experience.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Sep-2017 at 08:40 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

But then never be able to take advantage of USB mixers, optical audio out, or digital audio out, you be limited to the stereo audio output, not DTS, no Surround Sound. what about Mic input, Line inn, and things like that.

same as a1 software won be able to take advantage of hardware without dedicated software. usingnew stuff along ols will suffice though.

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The original Amiga sound chips where limited, only 4 channel sound, this makes it hard to use,

limitations are a blessing for quality sometimes ;)

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When there are good API ready to use, and developer choose not it show there lack of experience.

as you wrote yourself ahi might not be a good api by todays standards, same as w3d or whatever abstraction from the nineties. maybe audio device isnt that outdated in comparison. i would leave it for better educated to discuss while providing means to navigate around it in hardware isnt certainly the wrong thing to do, agreed?

this all wont happen with os4 hardware, sorry.

@NutsAboutAmiga

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I'm going to be pragmatic and say, that what made Amiga computers special is also what killed it.

I don't think you will find someone who dissagrees with you more here. What made Amiga special is what made it vivid and lively, made it from the right elements that can stand the test of time. Not from a usage pov but from a cultural one. The thing about amiga being "ahead of its time" is what made so many people miss the point, to a degree they are dismissive of current developments or whatever came after the classics because it was not "ahead of its time".

An analogy if you will:

The Hobbit goes on his adventure. At first he walks through plain fields. Then he comes to a mountain pass. It is only when he encounters the goblins he and his party need to change.

You can say amiga wasn't fit for such a scenario but that is a market scenario and the situation is more complex. Yes, the market was what gave birth to the amiga hitting the every-man and every-woman homes and becoming their multimedia all-in-one machine. It was a different market then and the amiga design wasn't just another market thingy. It used it and then transcended it via series of pro, amatuer and day-to-day usage.

If eventually it encountered its goblin and couldn't pass it then that's not on the original design. You know how many times I've heard the phrase "I hate computers" ? Ever stopped to think why so many people hate computers? This is why some kids that made it their thing to really know the hardware and software so they can insist there isn't just a single option were geeks because they were the only ones who put their hands to that non-humane model. I was one to those kids and I installed that os on many of my friends and familiy pcs. Are you calling that a win? Now you see all those people do it on their phones.

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Yes, we are becoming like that, because we can't compete with NVidia and AMD, and this company's, we can't afford to be unique.

Who in their right mind would want to compete with them? Maybe someone here has a giant backing him up...

That is such misconception based on the agenda-driven people that make it about the purist vs the non-amiga/n.

If they have something good and are willing to have a relationship with you then why not? AMD brings to the table an innovation like frame rate conversion in videos. What do you have today? a giant money grab called 4K, just a bunch of bs. You take 60fps and combine it with the MadVR renderer and its filters and you have the most up to date picture the recorded visual medium can offer. Yes I know about HDR and so do everybody in computer gfx of photography for the last decade. If they wanted to give us hdr they could have done it with what we have now but this is exactly what makes it such a non-sensible design.

I will put my amd's driven 43 inch display with 60fps and MadVR configured a certain way vs any 4k on the planet. So this is an example how you can do it both ways - computing and market-based, with a single move that gives you something for 5 years at least like in the good old times. The question in the post-relative phase of that example, is can you have a long-term relationship with a company such as the former ati currently amd? Can you push a whole design based on an outer element? Isn't that what 68k and ppc were? The amiga didn't design either and it worked for as long as it did. It still does where I'm sitiing and writing this.

Wasn't the last generation of consoles exactly like that? Amazing how so many people don't know what lied beneath in the ps3 and the xbox360 and how much the current generation is the same machine more or less. Is it based on any new development or simply another need to get people to spend money? I'll leave that open.


@Signal
Quote:

Hell, you can put a video chip on a motherboard,,,, why not a card?

The current direction is highly fragmentized - so, the opposite direction. That is a lot due to what people call a pc. You can have all sorts of combinations if you can make what we have more of a variety machine that can be different things to different people. Think about it like that:

Mom, I'm going to the store to get that streamer I have this hd loaded with movies I saw this great streamer.
No need son, the amiga that's in the house can transmit both the data on the hd, stream online whatever you need and can output a great picture via a cordless solution...

@Srtest

Quote:

Srtest wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga Quote: Yes, we are becoming like that, because we can't compete with NVidia and AMD, and this company's, we can't afford to be unique. Who in their right mind would want to compete with them? Maybe someone here has a giant backing him up... That is such misconception based on the agenda-driven people that make it about the purist vs the non-amiga/n. If they have something good and are willing to have a relationship with you then why not? AMD brings to the table an innovation like frame rate conversion in videos. What do you have today? a giant money grab called 4K, just a bunch of bs. You take 60fps and combine it with the MadVR renderer and its filters and you have the most up to date picture the recorded visual medium can offer. Yes I know about HDR and so do everybody in computer gfx of photography for the last decade. If they wanted to give us hdr they could have done it with what we have now but this is exactly what makes it such a non-sensible design. I will put my amd's driven 43 inch display with 60fps and MadVR configured a certain way vs any 4k on the planet. So this is an example how you can do it both ways - computing and market-based, with a single move that gives you something for 5 years at least like in the good old times. The question in the post-relative phase of that example, is can you have a long-term relationship with a company such as the former ati currently amd? Can you push a whole design based on an outer element? Isn't that what 68k and ppc were? The amiga didn't design either and it worked for as long as it did. It still does where I'm sitiing and writing this. Wasn't the last generation of consoles exactly like that? Amazing how so many people don't know what lied beneath in the ps3 and the xbox360 and how much the current generation is the same machine more or less. Is it based on any new development or simply another need to get people to spend money? I'll leave that open.

At least with the likes of the Vampire, it's an SoC. It's not designed to compete with the Radeon HD nor nVidia's desktop offerings because it's designed to compete with the likes of the ATOM chip from Intel and the phone chips like the Broadcomm chips in the RasPi series. It doesn't have the 3D capabilities there yet but is implementing enough of a vector unit to do so in the future.