@wawa

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had to reduce the credibility of the genuine platform

Your beloved "genuine platform" was as good as dead for the outside world by 1994/1995. Only radical "NG" change could return Amiga from obscurity.

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so far all of them failed..

Well, most Amiga developers did choose "NG" over "Classic" long time ago...

@Zylesea

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Zylesea wrote: @OlafS25 It was obvious the day Apple announced their switch to x86. I was at a freescale seminar briefly after the announcent and they were really p*ssed and confirmed a huge uncertainty for ppc future development. It was okay to stll stay a while with ppc but tody ppc is dead. Unfortunately. Future is x64 and ARM. Still ppc drives the majority of my computers (4 out of 8). It was a good time, but it's time to close this chapter.

Intel and AMD require non-free, unreplaceable, privileged firmware in order for their CPUs to function. The firmware is cryptographically signed and verified by the CPU hardware;you cannot replace them or remove them. They are tightly integrated with basic system operation, even a new mainboard design will not get around them. Hacking this Rube Goldberg system management has already been done and it can't be patched-to-prevent without cooperation from the big boys. Good luck with that. ARM just doesn't have the computational omph! for many development/desktop tasks. However ARM would make an excellent co-processor for many system and desktop tasks.

Just because A-EON chose a wienie for PPC this second time around does not mean PPC is wrong for Amiga. Really sad Apple killed PASemi,,,,, Bastards.

Last edited by Signal on 30-Sep-2017 at 01:29 AM.

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Tinkering with computers.

@Signal

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Signal wrote: Intel and AMD require non-free, unreplaceable, privileged firmware in order for their CPUs to function. The firmware is cryptographically signed and verified by the CPU hardware;you cannot replace them or remove them. They are tightly integrated with basic system operation, even a new mainboard design will not get around them.

And your point actually being..? You can put all kind of OSes on a modern x64 board. Look to Linux, no biggie there. I don't see why some AmigaOS x64 (or MorphOS x64) will not run on a random Dell or Asus board (given you have the drivers). Technically the boards could exclude some OS, but practically they don't. AROS does for example...

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Good luck with that. ARM just doesn't have the computational omph! for many development/desktop tasks. However ARM would make an excellent co-processor for many system and desktop tasks.

Current cheap low wattage ARMs offer mor oomph than ppc and way² more bang for the buck. ppc is low end and high end (Power9), but no middle class. ARM offers low end, mid class and is catching up to high end. All with very competetive prices and rather low wattages.

Believe me, I like ppc. I am/was member of Power.org, went to freescale seminars and so on, but ppc is virtually dead. The e6500 core is nice, but QorIQ processors just aren't desktop processors. And while theoretically Freescale might do a desktop processor with the e6500 core, they won't as there is no market for them...

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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

@OlafS25

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OlafS25 wrote: @Zylesea it was 2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%27s_transition_to_Intel_processors so in my view transition from PPC to X86 should have happened latest at this point and "NG" should have dropped legacy including full SMP and MP.

Probably, but with the SoCs Freescale was introducing there was acually a small chance. I was working on the lay out of a low wattage low cost netbook based around that quite a before Asus came with the Eee series. Genesi actually tried that. Look to the Efika5200B. The board quite was on track. Unfortunately the 512x (which was planed for the mass product netbook/nettop) was delayed and eventually a bit incompatible to the 5200 (cache coherence). Later on that product was on sale as limebook. Initially it was planed for 2006/7 or so. Back then there was a chance. But the attempt failed. Asus came with the Eee series and that market was lost, too.
After that failure the switch to x64 or ARM should have happened, Genesi pulled the plug and went ARM then.

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Today it is too late for that, at least regarding make a real difference in terms of users. The main problem today is missing modern development tools and software (both of course depend of each other)

Businesswise it will very unlikely become a reasonable approach. But for the fun it would be an improvement.

_________________
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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

@pavlor

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Your beloved "genuine platform" was as good as dead for the outside world by 1994/1995.

it was as dead then as it is now. namely as a viable contemporary all purpose computing platform. yet you know very well, that anything ng after that could only gather a fraction of interest from what you call "outside world" in comparison to the genuine amiga at a given time.

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Well, most Amiga developers did choose "NG" over "Classic" long time ago...

those interested in aligning the system itself with what was open, could be considered contemporary, and might be fitted into the system to make it more modern, namely the linux standandards, yes, for the time being. but there is still a lot of people doing their own independent projects on amiga out there, look at a1k, eab, apollo, it just isnt mentioned here much.

@pavlor

yes... and where are they now?

@Zylesia

I think the main advantage to have a popular hardware platform would be that it is much easier to adapt drivers or port software to it. PPC options are certainly still useable but they are expensive if you need to develop custom hardware for it and have low production numbers and speed-wise they are inferior now compared to current Intel/AMD. Certainly you could already see that in 2005, But anyway, in my view NG platforms have lost the race, I do not see any chance to regain even a small market. For retro there are other options and to be attractive to average users there is too much missing. Even to former amigans it would be only a option if they could download and install it on existing hardware and be free of charge. Perhaps if MorphOS really is ported to current PCs and people could test it free of charge some would use it as least as alternative. But there is the problem that it will propably only run on few devices. But honestly nobody is waiting for "Amiga NG" outside and there is no niche that is not already covered. The chance (if there was one ever) to make a difference was a long time ago, now I do not believe it. Amiga is a pure retro platform and will stay that. Additionally (how we saw in the past) has MorphOS not "the name" what not only affects parts of current user base but what also makes a difference how public becomes aware of it in media. MorphOS might offer the better product but has not "the name" and AmigaOS has the name but no product attractive outside. The same is true for AROS of course. Vampire/Apollo is another beast in my view because there is a obvious need in current community to upgrade the 68k hardware or even have new hardware. It will not become mainstream and stay niche but at least it might be interesting for some even outside (despite not having "name" either).

Last edited by OlafS25 on 29-Sep-2017 at 09:59 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 29-Sep-2017 at 09:56 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 29-Sep-2017 at 09:47 AM.

@OlafS25

I agree to a far extent (say 95% or so).

Anyway, there's still fun in AROS/MorphOS and OS4. But not businesswise.
AROS is no business (well done!), MorphOS still charge a bit for the OS (okay IMHO), but at least don't pretend to be a big business and OS4 with Hyperion & A-Eonkit still pretend to pursue a big business...

_________________
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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

@wawa

Look man I get what you are doing so you might as well pass on calling my nick.

You can talk all you want about this being dead that being alive the fact is that you like it that way because then you get the attention you need.

You can also send a message to your buddy here who uses the word retro and doesn't have a clue about anything that a guy who can't address a single one of my claims, ever, and has no vision whatsoever can't also claim to know anything about a "right" direction.

Now I'm answering you becaue that's what a person whose part of a community, does. You can keep running your slogans and being a master at taking things out of context and addressing only what is comfortable and I will simply answer to the best of my ability.

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i guess among the healthy options is the one when one feels attracted to the elements of genuine design. it may be just the philosophy of the opereating system or its api as well as the inductive development along the lines one can track down of the development of the original system.

Your answer here is what they call in philosophy an argument that collapses back into itself. "Elements of genuine design" is "inductive development of the original system" so you can stop right there unless you can explain what is genuine about a design other than team members having ideas and shaping them in a certain way. No big words. Something that will at least present a clue as to why we keep having the same disussion otr instead jusy be silent.

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once upon a time, not anymore of the follow ups today. it doesnt make sense to try to align by these princiles or even claim that.

Funny, aren't you this big pro linux guy that comes here to defend it? I mean talk about a computing world that produces ideologies. I have explained what it means to me being an alternative. I can explain it in terms of the market or in terms of computing while of course, survival is important and I said so myself. It makes sense to know who you are and being something amongst options that are not really options just roads leading to same end (speaking of a dead end). Nobody is stopping you embracing that result here and now and not in some distant future. Maybe trying to stop thinking about "the future of amiga" and starting to think about what people want and like can be a welcomed change.

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its not the customers that have came up with this..

That is exactly why you have no argument here becaus amiga was always a humane model that was about the users, not a group of developers conversing amongst themselves. So yeah, that decision to try to hold hands both with the amiga's past and where it needed to be might have been made by an owner of IP rights or developers but it had the users in heart. It was the right call whether you like it or not.

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likely who tried to discredit the genuine amiga as "classic", to introduce the "ng" as valid successor rathe than just another option. whoever fell for it needs to deal with the problems of the platform most..

Look, nobody is chasing after you mr. classic. Isn't that a compliment in society? classic? wasn't it your argument on another thread that amigaone isn't a real amiga? so for people like you the divide between classic and ng was invented but I guess that's only an excuse because you also have issues with the term amigaone so good luck with that. I consider the X1k and X5k as current crop of A1s and this is the phrase I'm using. If people prefer ng and classic then I have no issues with that. If you could take your head from wherever it is you would know how stupid it is talking like that to a guy using a X1k with AOS4.1FEUP1 because of the classics. You don't like that? tough.

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so you can stop right there unless you can explain what is genuine about a design

inna final analysys, it will be up to what the community will define, voting with their wallets and contributions, im afraid.

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starting to think about what people want and like can be a welcomed change.

yes, actually it would be something for a change. at least in os4 camp as it seems. judging by forum opinions, id expect majority of people would want some x86 hardware supported while the rest is already heading for vampire/apollo stuff.

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That is exactly why you have no argument here becaus amiga was always a humane model that was about the users, not a group of developers conversing amongst themselves.

amiga was simply another product on the market, not any "humane model". it has become a playground for interpretations just after this product went down the drain as such. currently, i might agree, the situation is, as i suggested above, that there is no significant common ground to convince amiga fans to replace their sentiments with other concepts anymore. the largest common denominator remains what it ever was.

@wawa

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that anything ng after that could only gather a fraction of interest from what you call "outside world" in comparison to the genuine amiga at a given time.

I think you misunderstood what I meant. The very purpose of "NG" was to return the Amiga platform to mainstream, something obviously not possible with "Classic". Sure, all NG projects failed in the end, but "Classic" could never fulfill this basic NG goal.

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but there is still a lot of people doing their own independent projects

Well, looking how are treated NG developers willing to help on Vampire forum, I don´t think "Classic" will get new developer blood any time soon.

@pavlor

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I think you misunderstood what I meant. The very purpose of "NG" was to return the Amiga platform to mainstream, something obviously not possible with "Classic". Sure, all NG projects failed in the end, but "Classic" could never fulfill this basic NG goal.

yes. an unrealistic goal, which is while ng obviously failed at something that amiga was realisticly never again meant to deliver on, which is just another reason to stick to it.

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Well, looking how are treated NG developers willing to help on Vampire forum, I don´t think "Classic" will get new developer blood any time soon.

now, who is being mistreated? there is a fair number of people involved even more attracted or just supportive, like me. sometime the tone is a bit harsh, i and many others may not agree on just every comment on forum or irc, so what? same on aros dev ml, we can handle it i suppose.

@wawa

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which is just another reason to stick to it.

I´m glad Amiga companies did choose the other way. Sticking to "Classic" would alienate most "power users" much faster, than giving them tenous hope for NG rebirth.

@pavlor

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Sticking to "Classic" would alienate most "power users"

vampire seems to prove otherwise. quite the contrary. as the customers in question claim themselves, it does attract a good share of tha ng crowd back to amiga. and what are these "power users" doing with their systems anyway? apparently its hard to find any actual productivity application in that area, i mean browsing the net and watching video aounds like the most common, and admittedly not very inventive excuse. i still havent seen a single 3d image rendered on an os4 system, a piece of music or something like that.

Last edited by wawa on 29-Sep-2017 at 09:34 PM.

@wawa

I'm going to be pragmatic and say, that what made Amiga computers special is also what killed it.

Amiga graphic was special "planar", advanced programmable, video graphics, changing resolutions and colors on the fly. Its yesterday's technology, but it what re remember, this is what retro is, memory's, yesterday.

What's the difference between a Compaq and a Toshiba? Nothing just the name same parts, chips, the only difference is company name, product name and brand.

Yes, we are becoming like that, because we can't compete with NVidia and AMD, and this company's, we can't afford to be unique. Man even writing drivers for newest hardware is challenge. It just a driver but it is many man-hours of work.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

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I'm going to be pragmatic and say, that what made Amiga computers special is also what killed it.

wow. im impressed. none has spelled it out better than this phrase in my entire forum carrier. its also probably the first time i am agreeing with you in full length.

now we need to think about, what we want to align with and check it out o its full potential, is it what killed amiga or what made amd great?

edit: i mean os4 as platform has abandoned everything special of amiga that in the meantime wasnt also adopted by linux & the like, except for a strange outwordish choice of cpu, that isnt even a genuine one. which by the way is killing it, to justify the legacy of fail. the os and its functionality simply tries to keep up with current linux distros, if not to fullest extent. graphical user interface, windowing system, some sort of multitasking, while necessarily lacking its memory protection or multicore support, not to talk of variety of applications, especially ones that depend on above features. see where its heading??

Last edited by wawa on 29-Sep-2017 at 11:28 PM.

@NutsAboutAmiga

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NutsAboutAmiga wrote: Yes, we are becoming like that, because we can't compete with NVidia and AMD, and this company's, we can't afford to be unique. Man even writing drivers for newest hardware is challenge. It just a driver but it is many man-hours of work.

And with custom(ized) cards using off the shelf chips that work in all Amigas the drivers need only be modified for differing mainboards. Then developers can squeeze every bit of performance out of a card for some years instead of trying to keep up with the PC World.

Hell, you can put a video chip on a motherboard,,,, why not a card?

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Tinkering with computers.

@wawa

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vampire seems to prove otherwise.

You must be joking.

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it does attract a good share of tha ng crowd back to amiga.

NG to Classic to NG is well known way. NG user is dissatisfied with NG, returns back to Classic, only to understand performance he used to have on NG is missing on Classic and returns to NG (or leaves the platform for some time).

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i mean browsing the net and watching video aounds like the most common

Even these basic user needs aren´t possible on Classic.

I´m still using Amiga applications for some needs (eg. painting and low-colour image conversion in PPaint, palette manipulation in DPaint etc.), but I wouldn´t call myself a "power user".

@wawa

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is it what killed amiga or what made amd great?

Chipset was simply the biggest bottleneck in the Amiga design. Commodore was not able to improve it as fast as cheap PC GFX chipsets and most of Amiga software was hard-coded to it, excluding any viable possibility of new radical GFX design. In the end, Commodore-itself leaved "Classic" and proposed even more radical NG design than we have now (Hombre).

A3000 may be pinacle of Amiga computers, but its GFX was laughable by 1990.


Sorry for double-post, AW doesn´t allow me to edit my post.

@pavlor

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NG to Classic to NG is well known way. NG user is dissatisfied with NG, returns back to Classic, only to understand performance he used to have on NG is missing on Classic and returns to NG (or leaves the platform for some time).

ng user that returns to amiga must know its limitations, how should he be disappointed? i never knowingly came across a case in which this led to a person leaving ste scene, care to mention an example?

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Even these basic user needs aren´t possible on Classic. I´m still using Amiga applications for some needs (eg. painting and low-colour image conversion in PPaint, palette manipulation in DPaint etc.), but I wouldn´t call myself a "power user".

painting and color conversion in ppaint is an example of a task, you hardly need an ng for, an amiga should handle that all find, depending on the image you might not even need an accel so much..
so you are proving yourself wrong just another time, arent you? ;)

@pavlor

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Chipset was simply the biggest bottleneck in the Amiga design.

so far i understand nuts, not even the particular implementation of the chipset or its lackings was the problem, but the concept of a computer not built of just off the shelf components developed by specialized external providers. amiga belonged to an era of 8 and 16 bit computers that have been developed all in one piece. and all of these platforms died or become replaced by regular pcs. amiga has been only outlived by apple for some time. today maybe but some handhelds are custom design.

os4 hardware tries hardly to attach themselves to that custom design concept, developing own boards, even though constructed out of off the shelf parts standards. the only actual difference to a generic pc is just the processor used. thats the worst of both worlds. it isnt custom for possible advantages of custom design but for its handicaps. and thats what people like tlosm complain about once they discover it.

Last edited by wawa on 30-Sep-2017 at 11:10 AM.