Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
5662 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
Home
Features
News
Forums
Classifieds
Links
Downloads
Extras
OS4 Zone
IRC Network
AmigaWorld Radio
Newsfeed
Top Members
Amiga Dealers
Information
About Us
FAQs
Advertise
Polls
Terms of Service
Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

(Uses JAVA Applet and Port 1024)
Visit the Chatroom Website

Who's Online
 57 guest(s) on-line.
 0 member(s) on-line.



You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 nikosidis:  14 mins ago
 Overflow:  14 mins ago
 Trixie:  23 mins ago
 Allanon:  32 mins ago
 Paulthetall:  40 mins ago
 Daedalus:  43 mins ago
 Fairdinkem:  48 mins ago
 daveyw:  1 hr 29 mins ago
 WolfpackN64:  1 hr 38 mins ago
 Rob:  1 hr 57 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga General Chat
      /  Wings Remastered 20 to go
Register To Post

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 Next Page )
PosterThread
OlafS25 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 24-Dec-2015 13:14:26
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5107
From: Unknown

@Overflow

that is what I wrote... it would add a lot of work to current project. But I hope attitudes change in future there.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
BSzili 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 24-Dec-2015 13:27:53
#62 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 264
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Why are you questioning me about the appeal of OS4 or MOS? I don't use either, I'm a Windows user.
Now that we got that out of the way, I still don't see how using different operating systems compares to running the same game, on the same machine in an emulator vs natively. This is not about supporting 68k, since there's no 68k machine on the market capable of running this game. How many people are there who want to run identical copies of games in winuae vs native?

_________________
I see the jimmies have been rustled.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
OlafS25 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 24-Dec-2015 13:38:46
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5107
From: Unknown

@BSzili

there will be better "real" hardware in future including RTG and Truecolor as standard. And there are a lot of people using emulation in one or another form. Has anybody asked them if there is interest? I cannot remember that ever. For this project it is too late anyway but I hope people become aware of it. There are estimated 15x more users using 68k than NG.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
OlafS25 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 24-Dec-2015 13:48:32
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5107
From: Unknown

@BSzili

BTW that is how innovation in IT normally works... software is developed that is bringing hardware to the edge of its limits and people long to use it on their systems. That did not happen in the 90s and most software was developed for A500 so noone was interested to buy new hardware or accellerators (in opposite to PC market at that time).

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
BSzili 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 24-Dec-2015 13:50:55
#65 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 264
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

It's not too late, because there are no 68k machines capable of running the game. How many of the 68k users want to an identical copy of this game in an emulator on Windows/Linux instead of Windows/Linux?

_________________
I see the jimmies have been rustled.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Daytona675x 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 24-Dec-2015 13:55:02
#66 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Jan-2011
Posts: 491
From: Germany

Hell, what's happening here?!

@OlafS25
Quote:
when 68k support is not there many people will not buy it

Actually this is the very first time 68k has ever been mentioned with the Wings Remastered port. It has been made clear before that this port is about current NG-Amiga (PPC and x86) systems and will maybe run on PPC / Mediator / Radeon equipped classics too.
As BSzili already pointed out (thanks, mate): 68k + Wings Remastered = nonsense.
- Native 68k Amigas: too slow. Anybody who says something else has no idea what he's talking about. And don't come to me with AGA...
- 68k on emulator: even if that would probably be fast enough on the right hardware, why? WinUAE is ready for PPC and AOS4. As soon as it emulates W3D or Compositing it will work on such emulated systems anyway.
- Theoretical turbo 68k in FPGA: even if that would probably be fast enough if / when it becomes available some day and works as advertised, a gfx-card (preferably with proper 3D support, but at least to have acceptable display res and color depth) would still be required for decent results. No, no, I certainly won't invest additional work (and money) for something that probably remains science fiction.

Quote:
he uses his own framework for development that certainly not supports 68k

The framework is 99% C++ and already supports PPC, x86 and ARM. 68k support itself is not such a big deal, add another cross-compiler and some small adjustments here and there. Of course there's more than the CPU issue, but anyway. The framework could be made "compatible". In theory.
But as said above: 68k in terms of Amiga systems simply doesn't make sense with such a game. I mean, even the original Wings OCS is not running at full 50 frames on a bare A1200 and the remastered version will probably be playable "okay" on a PPC Classic with proper gfx-card. To even think about 68k under such circumstances is, well, in lack of a better word: ridiculous.

Quote:
But I hope attitudes change in future there

It's not about "attitudes". It's about being realistic.

Quote:
by BSzili: there's no 68k machine on the market capable of running this game

That's absolutely right.

Quote:
there will be better "real" hardware in future including RTG and Truecolor as standard.

After the Natami desaster I don't believe any promises in that direction until I read a review in the AmigaFuture that tells me that it's true
Until then I don't take such statements for granted. And I certainly won't base my work on such statements.

Quote:
There are estimated 15x more users using 68k than NG

Maybe, I have no idea. But I know one thing for sure:
At that moment there are exactly zero users around who have an 68k Amiga system where a game like Wings Remastered would work (in theory and at a level of quality that isn't laughable).

@Overflow
Quote:
With Wings he fell a bit between two chairs. Many (most?) of us, AOS4 usernor not, already aquired the Windows version.

I didn't have it Well, I do by now, but I only bought it to check it out before I said "it can be done"
So far about 160 units were pre-(!)-sold. While it doesn't cover all the costs it's still no bad result for something that's not finished yet but already exists for the PC on Steam for some bucks for quite some time.
Between the chairs? Well, after all lots of people wanted an Amiga port of it, as stated during the Kickstarter back then. And if so many people preordered it isn't too unlikely that the rest will sell later too. It's a risk, but it doesn't seem to bad.

Quote:
So im sitting on the fence until he complete Tower57 which I supported thru Kickstarter.

My work on that has not even started. It will take some more time until they reach a (rather final) code state from where it makes sense to work on.

_________________
AmigaOS 4.1 FE (sam460ex Radeon 9200 / RadeonHD), MorphOS 3.8 (PowerMac G4 733MHz Radeon 9000), AROS (x86), A1200 (060 80MHz Indivision MK2), A500, A600, CDTV
Wings Remastered Development Diary

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
BSzili 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 24-Dec-2015 13:56:10
#67 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 264
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

We are talking about hardware that doesn't exist. So Wings Remastered running in WinUAE is what it's needed to get fast 68k hardware with 3D acceleration. I understand it now, and I rest my case.

_________________
I see the jimmies have been rustled.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
OlafS25 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 24-Dec-2015 14:05:26
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5107
From: Unknown

@Daytona675x

I am member of the Facebook Commodore Amiga group. It has 11.000 members and by far not everyone is on facebook. It is only a guess, nobody knows exactly how many use it. My comment was only because 68k was general ruled out and I hope that this will change in future with not only fast emulation but also better hardware. At my local amiga group virtually nobody uses "NG", at a big meeting there was just one Mac Mini with demo version of MorphOS and no 4.X at all. All machines were A500, A1200, A2000 and A4000. That might be different depending on the place but it certainly very much shows the situation. NG is very visible on certain sites but that does not reflect the reality out there. Yes no real 68k hardware right now able to run something like the new wings but situation is dynamic. A couple of months already can make a difference. That is all I wanted to write before Bszili started the discussion.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Daytona675x 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 24-Dec-2015 15:01:07
#69 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Jan-2011
Posts: 491
From: Germany

@OlafS25

68k is not generally ruled out. It is ruled out in this case for a reason, that reason being that it just won't work on any currently existing 68k setup. And in the case of emulation there's no need for it, because there's AOS4 compatible PPC emulation already (until there's the VRAM limit and no W3D or Compositing support all this is academic anyway).

Regarding future possible 68k FPGA solution: If the situation changes and if it turns out that all of a sudden we got super-fast 68k compatible Amigas with HD gfx etc. (no, a fast 68k is not enough!) for real and lots of people really use it - then there still won't be any Wings Remastered for 68k. Why? Because I plan to terminate the Wings job at some day in the not too distant future and I won't dig it out and mess around with it later just for such a task, sorry

That game project was and is targetted at existing NG PPC/x86 Amiga systems, never at 68k systems. Therefore it really doesn't matter to this project if there are many more 68k than PPC users or not. It never was an option to be considered. In this particular case.

I like 68k / ECS / AGA too. But it's just not suited for this task here.

_________________
AmigaOS 4.1 FE (sam460ex Radeon 9200 / RadeonHD), MorphOS 3.8 (PowerMac G4 733MHz Radeon 9000), AROS (x86), A1200 (060 80MHz Indivision MK2), A500, A600, CDTV
Wings Remastered Development Diary

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
kyle 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 24-Dec-2015 16:38:40
#70 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 15-Oct-2006
Posts: 838
From: Livorno, Italy

@Daytona675x

A little Christmas present for you

Merry Christmas!

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Overflow 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 24-Dec-2015 17:34:25
#71 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1429
From: Norway



Tbh I wasnt even thinking about Wings WB3.x version at all when I posted regarding 68k development.
I read the amigans.net comment regarding Wings pre-orders, and thought to myself that many of potential buyers already got it.
Personally I make a point purchasing from developers that produce for the Amiga platform, but in this case I already got a copy (not to mention, I dont own a AOS4 machine).

The FPGA comment was more throwing out the suggestion that WHEN/IF Vampire 2 is released there is a untapped potential in customers, and I was curious if you had even given it some brief thought for the future (beyond Wings).

But as you say; atm its hypotetical.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
vrana 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 24-Dec-2015 23:28:07
#72 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Feb-2010
Posts: 55
From: Australia

@Overflow

I am probably one of those weird people that don't already own a copy of Wings Remastered but that most likely comes down to the fact that I generally only buy games which run on Linux or the Amiga since I rarely ever touch Windows.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Overflow 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 24-Dec-2015 23:37:40
#73 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1429
From: Norway

@vrana



I can see how that works.

I do have friends that exlusivly use Linux as well, and for the most part they are not really gamers ( even tho the gamerelease frequency seems to be increasing on Linux).

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Daytona675x 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 25-Dec-2015 8:14:11
#74 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Jan-2011
Posts: 491
From: Germany

@kyle
Thanks, mate! Merry Christmas to you too!

@Overflow
@OlafS25
Quote:
The FPGA comment was more throwing out the suggestion that WHEN/IF Vampire 2 is released there is a untapped potential in customers, and I was curious if you had even given it some brief thought for the future (beyond Wings).

Yes, of course. Although the current and former games I coded were for PPC/x86 Amiga variants that doesn't mean I rule out 68k per se.
And if that Vampire 2 really fully works as advertised, I'll certainly get one of these and see if I can exploit it. But since it has that Natami-smell I better wait and don't take it for granted.

@vrana
Quote:
I generally only buy games which run on Linux or the Amiga since I rarely ever touch Windows.

Hmm, maybe I should really convince Cinemaware to put that "Win32 version of Wings that looks and feels like the Amiga ports" (which is created automatically during the porting process) on the CD too. Because it works with Wine

_________________
AmigaOS 4.1 FE (sam460ex Radeon 9200 / RadeonHD), MorphOS 3.8 (PowerMac G4 733MHz Radeon 9000), AROS (x86), A1200 (060 80MHz Indivision MK2), A500, A600, CDTV
Wings Remastered Development Diary

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
-Sam- 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 25-Dec-2015 12:32:24
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 2941
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@Thread

68k support would be madness. Time to move on!

@Daytona675x

Wonderful demo - finally got the chance to play it and what a brilliant brilliant conversion. Love it. really looking forward to the release. Beautifully and slickly presented a great game and a step in the right direction.

X1000 - 3D demo.

_________________
Sam

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
OlafS25 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 25-Dec-2015 13:10:24
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5107
From: Unknown

@-Sam-

I do not agree to you...

he wrote what he thinks and I am ok with it. Let it be with it

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
cdimauro 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 27-Dec-2015 5:27:18
#77 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 1832
From: Germany

@Daytona675x: I fully agree with you and BSzili.

Just one question about this:

"That game project was and is targetted at existing NG PPC/x86 Amiga systems, never at 68k systems."

Since I think that x86 is referred to AROS, and AROS is source-compatible across all supported architectures, is it possible (or does it make sense) to compile Wings Remastered to other architectures, 68K included?

I don't talk about specific changes to the source code to make it compatible with AROS for 68K, ARM, PowerPC, or even x64 (which is different from x86): just compiling the project targetting the proper ISA for AROS.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Daytona675x 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 27-Dec-2015 10:47:25
#78 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Jan-2011
Posts: 491
From: Germany

@cdimauro
Quote:
Since I think that x86 is referred to AROS

Yes

Quote:
AROS is source-compatible across all supported architectures, is it possible (or does it make sense) to compile Wings Remastered to other architectures, 68K included?

Yes, compiling should be possible.
However I'm not planning to support any other ISAs than x86 for AROS at the moment.
The two main reasons are:

1. lazyness , experience from previous projects tells me that the number of AROS users interested in games is apparently only a very very tiny fraction of AOS4 and MOS users.
So although supporting other AROS ISAs is probably no big deal it's nevertheless additional work that, at least from my experience, just doesn't seem to be worth it.

2. testing. I only have a x86 AROS system. And I only want to release stuff that I actually tested myself before, at least to a certain degree (yes, yes, I know that I also don't have all types of AOS4 and MOS systems at hand, but in the case of a different CPU architecture I simply draw the line).

Also, I don't know: what about 3D driver support for other than AROS x86? From what I know AROS 68k makes as much sense as AmigaOS 68k for this game.

_________________
AmigaOS 4.1 FE (sam460ex Radeon 9200 / RadeonHD), MorphOS 3.8 (PowerMac G4 733MHz Radeon 9000), AROS (x86), A1200 (060 80MHz Indivision MK2), A500, A600, CDTV
Wings Remastered Development Diary

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 27-Dec-2015 13:33:32
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10736
From: Norway

@OlafS25

I'm a member of the "Commodore Amiga" group as well, I have not owned a 68k system I many years, I do have E-UAE, I be a lot more happy about AmigaOS4 native PowerPC port, 68k CPU's are just too slow.

So it's not 11.000 members who use a 68k systems.

its maybe 100 people who use 68k system and 10900 fans who don't use it

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Dec-2015 at 01:37 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Dec-2015 at 01:35 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Dec-2015 at 01:34 PM.

_________________
Please check out my software:
Excalibur, Basilisk 2, AmigaInputAnywhere.
LiveForIt-Music
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
OlafS25 
Re: Wings Remastered 20 to go
Posted on 27-Dec-2015 13:43:49
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5107
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

LOL

Where do you have your informations?

in the amiga club nearby the percentage of "NG" is zero, null, niente or simple "0"

That might be different to some degree depending where you live and who meets but it shows what most amigans are interested in... small tip "not PPC"

And yes I mostly use UAE too at the moment. In your definition i am not using a 68k system?

Sorry YOU represent the minority in the community, whatever people on certain forums think themselves

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 Next Page )

[ home ][ about us ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright 2000 - 2017 Amigaworld.net.

Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle