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      /  News about Vampire and Apollo
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PosterThread
ne_one 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 25-Nov-2016 22:16:13
#701 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 716
From: Unknown

@Beans

Quote:
What was the price that the last one was listed on eBay for? It was about four times that, wasn't it?


They're selling early experience boards to subsidize production.

These guys are doing this on their own time and at their own expense. It's a great move that clearly is allowing people to contribute to the cause.

Quote:
For performance even Tabor should be able to bitch slap.


Apples and oranges.

And any bitch-slapping that Tabor will be doing won't be much to brag about.

Quote:
And why does the idea of running a PPC core via fpga keep coming up? Why in the world would you want to?


Because people legitimately wonder if it's possible to provide alternatives to spending an inordinate amount of time and money to pump out expensive, outdated hardware.

Quote:
Dedicated silicon is faster. If we could build 68K processor using modern processes, they'd greatly outperform the Vampire2.


That's still not a valid comparison.

For one, developing and producing a CPU is a mammoth exercise that only a few large companies can pull off and it's not in their interest to do so.

Secondly, the Vampire is running on a consumer FPGA, so it's at the low end of spectrum. But, the processor can be upgraded and an ASIC could also be produced - both of which will yield significant performance gains.

By comparison, what exactly does the PPC architecture have to offer long term...?

In the end, I think we're on the same page. It's not a competition but it may create some.

What the Vampire team (and others) have done is generated renewed interest in the platform.

That's good for *everyone*.

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 25-Nov-2016 22:27:58
#702 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5648
From: Unknown

@Beans

Quote:

I've never been interested in making anything Gunnar does look bad (as a potential customer), BUT releasing something IS SO overdue.


except telling everybody how an impossible person he is. so, potential customer, what did they not release, which is do overdue, to be upset about?

Last edited by wawa on 25-Nov-2016 at 10:28 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 25-Nov-2016 22:54:58
#703 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8319
From: Unknown

@ne_one

Quote:
Because people legitimately wonder if it's possible to provide alternatives to spending an inordinate amount of time and money to pump out expensive, outdated hardware.


Again. For 250 EUR you get 100 MHz G3 performance. As you see, expensive, outdated hardware is not so bad.

There may be some ways to cheaper hardware, but FPGA is not one of them, not yet.

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Beans 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Nov-2016 0:56:17
#704 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 313
From: Bear Delaware USA

@ne_one

You're doing a great job as a cheerleader, but I don't completely disagree with you.

Tabor will be pretty underwhelming.

FPGAs are good for low end hobbyist projects. I've had an Altera DE-1 board for awhile now.
But as to ASICs, we aren't talking about developing a new cpu, we're talking about re-implementing an old cpu.
And there are already companies vending 68K cpus under license.

What does NG/PPC have to offer?
A springboard to further developments that 68K based hardware will never be powerful enough to compete with.
In the case of the OS I use, moving to the X64 ISA.
And adequate performance, plain and simple.
Plus a chance to use familiar tools, working in a compatible environment, while doing the things legacy just can't.

But again, unless you guys feel threatened (which you appear to be), its not a competition.
FPGA approaches offer us a chance for really good register level, full legacy compatibility.
That's cool for running legacy software.

I'm not picking sides, that way too traditional Amiga for me.
I'll buy whatever tickles my fancy.

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Nov-2016 1:30:23
#705 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5648
From: Unknown

@Beans

Quote:
What does NG/PPC have to offer?
A springboard to further developments that 68K based hardware will never be powerful enough


what developments, that would require something more powerful? people here would struggle to get "hello world" straight, if they even ever tried to, that is. few actually a bit experienced developers are fully stretched writing drivers for basic interfaces..

Quote:
And adequate performance, plain and simple.


thats probably the idea behind all these benchmarking, since there is about no real life software to take advantage let alone prove all that "adequate performance".

Quote:
But again, unless you guys feel threatened (which you appear to be),


i have the feeling you might direct this comment to yourself instead, the way you sound.

Last edited by wawa on 26-Nov-2016 at 01:31 AM.

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pavlor 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Nov-2016 8:26:25
#706 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8319
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
thats probably the idea behind all these benchmarking, since there is about no real life software to take advantage let alone prove all that "adequate performance".


Web browsers - web today is really resource demanding.

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Beans 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Nov-2016 15:05:05
#707 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 313
From: Bear Delaware USA

@pavlor

Thanks, that was one area I switch from my A2000 to my (ugh) Mac under MorphOS to work.
I could struggle to use my A2000's network card and a legacy browser to connect to the internet, but the experience would still be painful.
And I like to wander around the house with a laptop.
So the choice is my i7 laptop under Windows10 or my iBook under MorphOS.

The fact that I can still do this with something Amiga related ought to be cause for celebration, but instead I'm here justifying myself (and diverting the thread, my apologies).

ONE THING the Vampire2 might do, is bring enough horsepower to the table to allow a decent experience in legacy web browsing.
That itself make it very interesting to me.
For that matter, while I've repeatedly mentioned that it still won't have the power of a more modern cpu or a modernized ASIC 68K, its still a stellar leap over what we've had.
AND, since the software we've been running on legacy hardware is more efficient and less demanding, this jump in performance will bring a lot to the table.

That being said, I'm still buying an X5000.
I really want to limit my reliance on Apple hardware (I always like Wozniak, but Jobs was a first class knob).

Its cool to have options on all fronts.

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Nov-2016 15:12:02
#708 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5648
From: Unknown

@Beans

Quote:
That being said, I'm still buying an X5000.


yeah, by now everybody is over-aware, what you are buying, since you never forget to mention it in every post.

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Nov-2016 15:34:00
#709 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5064
From: Unknown

@pavlor

yes and for X1000 or X5000 you can buy a whole server farm. Pretty impressive too, isn´t it?

it is a hobby market, some are willing to spend huge amounts of money for PPC hardware, some updated 68k hardware based on FPGA for less money, "slow" how you say but obvious there is a need...

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Nov-2016 15:40:30
#710 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5064
From: Unknown

@Beans

iggy, still on your PPC vs. 68k crusade?



I do not want to spoil your fun but how about Javascript benchmarks compared even to smartphones, how about up-to-date webbrowsers? That is not necessary on 68k because people use it for fun and not to replace their working machines. None of the PPC platforms can compete with the big players either, not at OS level, not really on hardware (only one core supported) and expecially not on software level.

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pavlor 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Nov-2016 15:42:17
#711 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8319
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Nothing against that. However I must remind you (again) that my comparison was aimed at practicability of PowerPC implementation in FPGA. PowerPC computer with the performance of the Vampire would be useless, even with so low price.

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Nov-2016 15:53:43
#712 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5064
From: Unknown

@pavlor

PPC at that speed would combine the disadvantages of both platforms, slow with almost no software. No it would indeed make no sense. But except some crazies nobody is interested in PPC on FPGA

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Beans 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Nov-2016 16:46:07
#713 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 313
From: Bear Delaware USA

@wawa

Quote:
you never forget to mention it in every post.


I (sort of) apologize for that.
But I have anticipated something like this since BEFORE I was aware that Varisys had anything to do with the X1000.
I'd been in contact with Paul Gentle about the 8641D project I was working on, mentioned the PA6T (which I knew he had worked with), and he suggested that Freescale's Qorlq line would be the best solution for a new design.
SO, this goes back a long way.

As does my history with Gunnar.
We were discussing common software projects that could spread between all platforms (including legacy) when he was still working with Thomas.
Specifically a game he was working on that would require a fair amount of memory for texture storage (at the time most NG video cards only offered 128MB of vram OR less).

SO, regardless of what YOU all think about forming camps, I still think the majority of us (regardless of our favorite variation) still can work together.

Instead of prancing around complaining someone isn't being fair to your polarized perceptions, you all might want to consider the fact that we have a common base.

WHEN this finally gets in full production, I'LL buy one.
It will give me a reason to spend more time on my A2000.

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OneTimer1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Nov-2016 17:21:30
#714 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 209
From: Unknown

@soviet

Quote:


Once we finish funding next R&D through these eBay sales, price will go down to 250€ for the V500. The current V600 is already at 250€.
...

So... 250€ for fastest Amiga accelerator ever PLUS rtg card is still considered affordable.



This accelerator card is cheap if the CPU-Softcore, Memory management and RTG are working like they should.

I'm a bit disappointed due bad availability of the boards, and missing information about the state of the RTG software.

Well I might by an accelerator for my A1200 or a stand alone version but they are something totally different from any AmigaNG that might still be faster and cheaper if done the right way.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 26-Nov-2016 at 10:52 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 26-Nov-2016 at 05:24 PM.

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Mr-Z 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 27-Nov-2016 6:51:00
#715 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 24-May-2005
Posts: 176
From: De Keistad, Netherlands

@OneTimer1


Quote:
This accelerator card is cheap if the CPU-Softcore, Memory management and RTG are working like they should.

I'm a bit disappointed due bad availability of the boards, and missing information about the state of the RTG software.

Well I might by an accelerator for my A1200 or a stand alone version but they are something totally different from any AmigaNG that might still be faster and cheaper if done the right way.


CPU softcore is working as it should, so is the RTG, I'm running workbench in 720P Hicolor, no problems at all, runs really smooth on my Vampire 2 A600 (still running silver 9 core)
Only downside is that you'll have to set the correct frequency that suits your monitor for most of the predefined resolutions in P96.

With the upcoming Gold 2 core GFX operations should improve a lot due to the new memory controller that is a lot faster then the current one.
I hope they release Gold 2 soon now, very eager to play around with it and ofcourse try Riva with AMMX support

As for the board availability yes it's too bad that they cannot cope with the demand, but who knew that well over 1100 (!!) Amiga users wanted a Vampire 2 for the A600, every day new requests are being done,
Kipper has upped the production by having them made fully assembled by a board house, 100 at a time.
Good thing is when they release the V500+ and in 2017 the V1200 they can rely on the experience from the V600 and hopefully can deliver boards a lot faster

_________________
Amiga is additive coz it is fun to use

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Signman 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 27-Nov-2016 15:28:25
#716 ]
Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2016
Posts: 69
From: Unknown

@Mr-Z

Not likely faster, Majsta's latest on his blog says he is determined to do all by hand.

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pavlor 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 27-Nov-2016 17:14:45
#717 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8319
From: Unknown

@Signman

Quote:
Not likely faster, Majsta's latest on his blog says he is determined to do all by hand.


This simply doesn´t make sense. If they are able to "mass produce" Vampire boards for 250-300 EUR, building one by one is waste of their time. I think Majsta want fully non-commercial production - which is noble of course, but unrealistic with such high demand.

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Mr-Z 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 27-Nov-2016 18:57:17
#718 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 24-May-2005
Posts: 176
From: De Keistad, Netherlands

@Signman

Quote:

Signman wrote:
@Mr-Z

Not likely faster, Majsta's latest on his blog says he is determined to do all by hand.


Yeah read that too, puzzled me a bit, V500 should sell even more numbers then V600 (way more 500's out there)
On the other hand, check this on the Apllo Forum:

http://forum.apollo-accelerators.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18

Very soon 200 more vampire users/owners

_________________
Amiga is additive coz it is fun to use

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pavlor 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 27-Nov-2016 19:00:31
#719 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8319
From: Unknown

@Mr-Z

Nice!

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Beans 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 27-Nov-2016 22:15:12
#720 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 313
From: Bear Delaware USA

@OlafS25

Quote:
iggy, still on your PPC vs. 68k crusade?


Interesting perception you have there, Olaf, but it borders on slander.
In the '80s and '90s I was part of a company that designed and built 68K computers.
And I still use them.
Apparently you're confused when I assert that a processor that was only offered in variants rated to operate up to 75 MHz isn't going to compete with more powerful processors operating 10-30 times faster.

Get over it.

I'd did more than most of you for the 68K market, and I'm not the one living in a fantasy world.

Last edited by Beans on 27-Nov-2016 at 10:15 PM.

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