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Beans 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 12-Dec-2016 14:41:07
#821 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 251
From: Bear Delaware USA

@ne_one

Quote:
Which begs the real question: what is an Amiga.


1) A dead platform with a lot of life in it.
2) Something that has spawned multiple direct descendents.
3) Something that is emulated by PCs, because imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

OR, most importantly, the first commercially available multimedia PC.
With features that took the competition several years to catch up with.

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Srtest 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 13-Dec-2016 5:09:36
#822 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 73
From: Israel, Haderah

@Beans

You talk about emulation of Amiga and Amiga being the first multimedia machine for home users - why is Amiga emulated? is the multimedia part really what set the Amiga apart or was it also its identity as something? you keep talking about the pc as something very obvious which the Amige arrived at first, while I think it's anything but obvious and actually quite obscure. We are not talking here about the beginning of the era of compatibles and very different hardware between machines - 30 years have past since then. It should have gotten some kind of definition, no?

If you cut the comparison completely what are you left with? that is a similar question to what kept it in zombie state all those years.

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ne_one 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 13-Dec-2016 5:41:26
#823 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 648
From: Unknown

@Beans

The Amiga is a platform.

The issue is that while we all appreciate the spirit that drew us to it, we've somehow forgotten that spirit and substituted it with what it was made of and what it wasn't.

The Amiga has never been about custom chips and discoloring plastic or "Intel Outside."

So who's to blame for this identify problem?

Commodore really didn't appreciate what they had created and those who have inherited that responsibility have been equally baffled by what it is as well.

And yet it's all pretty simple and equally tragic.

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ne_one 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 13-Dec-2016 5:43:46
#824 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 648
From: Unknown

@Srtest

Thank you.

We've disagreed on other matters, but I think we're on the same page with this one.

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 13-Dec-2016 10:17:04
#825 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 4927
From: Unknown

@ne_one

Amiga was the first affordable computer with advanced graphic and sound capabilities, offering opportunities for even new software like the new multimedia software or raytracers at a fraction of the money you needed for similar existing computers at that time. Then it more moved to a pure home computer, only bad supported by the mother company who made a number of mistakes, not invested in new hardware and OS and finally disappeared. The rest is history. Then the so called NG successors were created (Aros was first I believe) but both 4.X and MorphOS were too late to make a difference because most of the existing market collapsed before (1998 was software peak at aminet and then rapidly shrinked, last commercial updates were around 2000), additionally the split in market between the different platforms and harsh discussions "who is best or who is true successor". Then we are now in 2016, NG has not really lifted off software wise and most users are mainly interested in amiga as retro platform. And I see nothing anyone could change about that. Retro is not as negative as some see it, it does not say anything about how much users are active or software is developed. It just says something about if you want to compete with the big players or not and if you want a platform as pure hobby or use it as your main platform.

Look at the C64 market. From what I read there are less active users there than on amiga platform and of course nobody has ported C64 on X86 or PPC (except emulation of course) but still sometimes it looks like the market is healthier than the amiga market with more software developed. Amiga has a much better technical base so I am not pessimistic there regarding amiga as a healthy niche market. But not regarding NG as competition to mainstream.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 13-Dec-2016 at 10:32 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 13-Dec-2016 at 10:27 AM.

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iggy 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 13-Dec-2016 14:28:27
#826 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 762
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@Srtest

Quote:
....what kept it in zombie state all those years.


That is an easier question to answer.
The simple fact is that charlatans have owned the rights to the trademarks and IP, and have invested very little money in development.
While I don't agree with those who argue that the OS should be open source, a developer willing to invest real money in it would be nice.

And I sold both 68K based hardware and X86 PC when the Amiga was current.
IBM engineers gave me a pre-release copy of Windows 3.0, and it was disheartening to know that the PC would be absorbing that kind of technology (which would allow users to access their PCs with limited or no training).

While I've grown used to the idea of Wintel systems (they have gotten much better), its still upsetting to know that the systems that were originally inferior to ours became the dominant standard.

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Srtest 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 14-Dec-2016 2:52:07
#827 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 73
From: Israel, Haderah

@iggy

You know, you can say one thing which can reflect more than one viewpoint and everyone will choose what's suits them.

Zombie state is a saying that tags the Amiga as having a sort of life force almost without anyone pumping some life into it. That's because it has something, that the more you try to define the more it alludes you because it is more about living in the present and trying to capture a gloried past than what can benefit us right now. It's also a saying that puts you into a different comaparison of being "dead" vs "alive" and showing you that something can be alive yet be exploited for selfish reasons. That's exactly why being alive or being dead doesn't say anything. Likewise, if we talk about that life force that kept everything going and whatever heart rate it needed for survival, you can mention everyone you like and ignore everything else. Hyp where there after the entire buyout fiasco and after the company that was supposed to deliver us to a new age didn't deliver anything. The fact that Hyp was there to pick up the pieces is not mentioned as what makes this platform special. The thing is, survival isn't what I'm looking for. The mere ability to survive doesn't make it worth the effort and what I personally put into it. People who talk about whatever open developments are happening in amigaland as being more than that same survival way are selling whatever they want to sell.

Sometimes I think we can't really address the situation as long as someone keeps marking a target and then setting up the facts and reasoning to match it. The old Amiga came into a primitive market and presented something to a dull and empty space. Market-wise, it was a mix between the way new forces shaped-up the smartphone market with how old forces conquered the console market again and again by defining what a console was and why everybody would want one. Similarly, wanting a new wealth of apps and utils when Aminet and os4depot (and other derivatives depots) contain so many is totally different then creating those huge archives of wealth of utils, apps, etc. The test of development should be to reinvent the wheel? I don't think so. What the vamp shows us is that some kind of mash-up of exisiting software and hardware can be new and exciting. I thought that about the X1k and I guess it's pretty funny how the same reasoning that is now being used to promote the vamp was belated and marginalized when doing and saying the same with the X1k, and now the emulation pc guys are turning against their former allies. If you have one source of being active as Amigans called the os and another called free and collective contributions to Amiga archives since 1985, then perhaps the innovation could come from finding new ways of bridging the 2. I for one think 4.1 applies much of that small parts mentality behind those great contributions over the years, while maybe neglecting an even smaller parts attitude behind everything that happens on amigaland which all of us atomized Amigans portray and make it larger than the some of its parts.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 15-Dec-2016 21:58:09
#828 ]
Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 32
From: Unknown

"classic" Amiga is of course computer that run amiga os or enough compatible.
(We can consider mos ppc and aros 68k as enough compatible).

Hardware does not matter except cpu that have to work in 32 bit big endian mode.




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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 15-Dec-2016 22:20:10
#829 ]
Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 32
From: Unknown

Vampire is not worth money whet they want.

It is sad but after many years of lies and cheating gunnar von boehn and his followers still does not provide fast 68k cpu.
In benchmarks not made by gunnar von boehn his followers vampire is slower than 68060 80 MHz.
Vampire is slower than 19 years old ppc cards for amiga, and even slower than some Commodore prototypes which use good old HP PA-RISC 7100 100 MHz.
PC from year 2000 with uea from year 2000 also run circles around vampire.

gunnar von boehn in 2008 advertised natami as amiga that commodore would made if still exist,
workbench had run faster than on fast pc with uae in 2009.
But after almost teen years they have just cheaper 68060.

Vampire is not worth of use beause it is too slow. For webkit cpu needed is at least 10 times faster.

PPC Amiga is a better choice, and if someone does not want to spend money uae.









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gregthecanuck 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 15-Dec-2016 23:09:04
#830 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 730
From: Vancouver, Canada

Hi ppcamiga1 -

You are definitely entitled to your opinion even when it comes close to being "flame bait".

However, the 1700+ pre-orders for the Vampire series disagree: http://orders.apollo-accelerators.com/

I believe you misunderstand the goals of the project. It is not intended to be some sort of replacement for OS4/PPC systems. It is intended to be a continuation of the classic Amiga 68K evolution on both the CPU and associated hardware.

There is no expectation to be able to run Webkit or other heavy browser engine. Even OS4/PPC systems are taxed to run this level of software.

It definitely has its place in the wider Amiga ecosystem. I have both classic and PPC systems and find it extremely cool to be able to inexpensively upgrade an A500 or A2000 to a very fast 68K with 128MB of memory and RTG graphics for the price being asked.

This product is bringing a lot of interest back to the Amiga and this can only benefit everyone regardless of OS3/OS4/68K/PPC leanings.




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Mr-Z 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 16-Dec-2016 5:39:16
#831 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 24-May-2005
Posts: 173
From: De Keistad, Netherlands

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
Vampire is not worth money whet they want.

It is sad but after many years of lies and cheating gunnar von boehn and his followers still does not provide fast 68k cpu.
In benchmarks not made by gunnar von boehn his followers vampire is slower than 68060 80 MHz.
Vampire is slower than 19 years old ppc cards for amiga, and even slower than some Commodore prototypes which use good old HP PA-RISC 7100 100 MHz.
PC from year 2000 with uea from year 2000 also run circles around vampire.

gunnar von boehn in 2008 advertised natami as amiga that commodore would made if still exist,
workbench had run faster than on fast pc with uae in 2009.
But after almost teen years they have just cheaper 68060.

Vampire is not worth of use beause it is too slow. For webkit cpu needed is at least 10 times faster.

PPC Amiga is a better choice, and if someone does not want to spend money uae.



Well i have a vampire and it's vey much faster then any 68060 and quit comparing it with a ppc.
The Goal of this project is to provide a 68K compatible CPU that is fast and provides a continuation of the Classic platform.

If Vampire is so slow (have ever used one ?) why do i turn on my A600 every day and not my A4K with csppc+cvision or A1200T with BPPC and Bvision ?
Why does my A600 boot the same OS3.9 config a lot faster then my CSPPC A4K with 60 Mhz 060 ?
Well not because vampire is so slow.

Do remember it's now running on a low end FPGA and is a lot cheaper then a 20 year old CS or Blizzard ppc card or any 2nd hand 060 card.
For C or Bvison alone you'll pay almost the price of an entire vampire.
You also get RTG with vampire/apollo core, so all together you get a real nice bang for the buck in classic Amiga land, I'm not saying it's cheap because it's not but in terms of value for money in real classic Amiga hardware nothing comes close.

Webkit broswers are all to heavy for any real Amiga hardware, best we have now on classic Amiga is Netsurf and that is already a leap forward on the old browsers we had.
Amigaworld renders in 8.6 seconds on my V600 silver core 9 at x11 multiplier that's about 78 Mhz.

Gunnar did not lie at any point, he always set realistic goals and delivered on those.
Now with upcoming gold 2 core again a lot of improvements are made and with Riva AMMX you can play mpeg on bitrates and resolutions never seen on 68k/any classic amiga.

Keep in mind that the Apollo core is continuously improved/developed and it's not finished yet, but it is very usable already, every piece of software i threw at it just works...

Instead of flaming the team be supportive these guys put a lot of effort in this project like all the free time they have, and what they have achieved is nothing short of stunning.
Be glad we still have people like them in our community that are trying to keep the old machines going.

Last edited by Mr-Z on 16-Dec-2016 at 05:40 AM.

_________________
Amiga is additive coz it is fun to use

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Birbo 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 16-Dec-2016 7:26:07
#832 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Apr-2007
Posts: 503
From: Zurich, Switzerland

@ppcamiga1

What the hell are you talking about?

What you're saying is absolutely not true.

Please stop with this BS.

_________________
I want to die peacefully in sleep like my grandfather did, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

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pavlor 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 16-Dec-2016 8:17:12
#833 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8052
From: Unknown

@Mr-Z

Constant mud throwing is the way this community works for well at least 20 years. Pios vs A/Box, Picasso96 vs CGX, WarpOS vs PowerUP, OS4 vs MorphOS, CommodoreUSA vs rest of the Amiga world and now "classic" vs "NG". Same lame arguments and in the end only bitterness for all involved (or even innocent bystanders). Some old words come in my mind:

For instance, a rather nasty Brute squad element has suddenly appeared
within our newsgroups, a bunch of holier than thou, whiter than white Amiga
zealots who seem to believe that they have been chosen exclusively by the
shade of Jay Miner to watch out over our little white box of wonders.

By some magical means they seem to be able to tell us what is an amiga and
what is not, who believes in the amiga and who does not.
...
To them I ask, where is the handed down from a higher dimension, never to be
changed, touch it and you die gold plated spec sheet that defines what
constitutes an amiga? What gives you the right to hurl insults, lay down the
law, tar and feather people for expressing a different opinion?


Fleecy Moss, comp.sys.amiga.misc, 10.09.1996.

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iggy 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 16-Dec-2016 13:07:00
#834 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 762
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@Birbo

Quote:
What you're saying is absolutely not true.


I'm a PPC advocate, and I've had my issues with Gunnar in the past, but I'm with you on this.
That past is total inflammatory bullpucky.

PLEASE don't anyone take that opinion as typical of an Amiga NG user.
Not only do I want a Vampire2 for my A2000, but I'd like to explore the possibility of using it in 68K applications other than the Amiga.

This is not an either/or situation, its an and situation.

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 16-Dec-2016 13:14:58
#835 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5423
From: Unknown

@iggy

thats pretty usual for this guy to post things like that. unfortunatelly he seems to break, he now even acknowledges aros68k. it sounds like a quiet desertion, sort of.

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 16-Dec-2016 13:40:49
#836 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 4927
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

morph zone became too boring? now trolling on another board?

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 16-Dec-2016 13:41:49
#837 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 4927
From: Unknown

@Birbo

he is everywhere telling his BS

bored and poor soul

we should have misery with him

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BSzili 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 16-Dec-2016 14:07:49
#838 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 250
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Some things never change I guess

_________________
I see the jimmies have been rustled.

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Beans 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 16-Dec-2016 16:49:16
#839 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 251
From: Bear Delaware USA

@OlafS25

Quote:
morph zone became too boring?


It does lack some of the drama of Amiga.org or AmigaWorld, but we do have our disagreements.

However, since it focuses on just one facet of the Amiga community, there IS more unity there.

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 16-Dec-2016 20:07:13
#840 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5423
From: Unknown

@Beans

isnt usage of multiple accounts prohibited here? especially in one single thread?

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