@olegil



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council

@Chris_Y

Media is overplaying the most extreme opinions, just for the max amount of sales and clicks.
Ive discussed with Trump supporters about what they are looking for, and it basically comes down to;

1) Sick and tired of establishment politicans/corruption
2) Jobs and tradedeals.

When I ask about immigrations and foreigners in general, it generally isnt a big concern, its mostly about 1 and 2.
Mainstream media has completely failed voters, by not presenting them with facts, pushing Trump for real answers when he make statements etc.

Likewise, they have not questioned Hillarys trackrecord or even what she is a proponent for now.
Keystone pipeline, fracking, TTP/TTIP, no real minimum wage. She got dragged into agreeing 12 dollars are fine, but ask Haitians about the same issue when they in 2009 called for 0.61 dollars per hour minimum wage. Multinational corporations was very unhappy, US State Department/Hillary put alot of pressure to get the minimumwage down to 0.31 dollars.

Same goes on in Europa, the media is failing us completely, and talks ONLY about immigration, immigration hate etc, without even mentioning the core reasons why people are fleeing, why we have to bail out banks every time etc.

So Chris, just because media reports massive racist sentiments, I feel very confident that most of us are just fed up with Ivory Tower politicians that are completely out of tune with its voters.

@Overflow

So instead you choose to place your trust in someone who mislead bussiness investors while intending to declare bankruptcy, FOUR times.
No thanks. The man is a bad joke, and I don't want to hear the punchline.

@iggy

Not sure what you mean with your post .
My main point is that a fair share of people belive mainstream media, and doesnt realise just how bad Trump is. All they know is that the system Hillary is part of has screwed them over for decades. Bill Clinton with the removal of Glass-Steagal Act was the final piece in the de-regulation construct Reagan started.
Trump is just a symptom of the broken system. Hillary is the personification of the sickness. Media can blame and shame Trump voters for racism etc, but the same media has been part of the system that has made his emergence possible. A healthy society wouldnt allow such a demagogue to be taken serious.

The "punchline" is that normal/working people looses every time, little by little.

Hillary or Trump, just degrees of bad.

Last edited by Overflow on 26-Jun-2016 at 08:14 PM.

@Overflow

Quote:

Media is overplaying the most extreme opinions, just for the max amount of sales and clicks. Ive discussed with Trump supporters about what they are looking for, and it basically comes down to; 1) Sick and tired of establishment politicans/corruption 2) Jobs and tradedeals. When I ask about immigrations and foreigners in general, it generally isnt a big concern, its mostly about 1 and 2. Mainstream media has completely failed voters, by not presenting them with facts, pushing Trump for real answers when he make statements etc. Likewise, they have not questioned Hillarys trackrecord or even what she is a proponent for now. Keystone pipeline, fracking, TTP/TTIP, no real minimum wage. She got dragged into agreeing 12 dollars are fine, but ask Haitians about the same issue when they in 2009 called for 0.61 dollars per hour minimum wage. Multinational corporations was very unhappy, US State Department/Hillary put alot of pressure to get the minimumwage down to 0.31 dollars. Same goes on in Europa, the media is failing us completely, and talks ONLY about immigration, immigration hate etc, without even mentioning the core reasons why people are fleeing, why we have to bail out banks every time etc. So Chris, just because media reports massive racist sentiments, I feel very confident that most of us are just fed up with Ivory Tower politicians that are completely out of tune with its voters.

Comparing the problem of immigration in Europe and USA is totally misguided.

@ExiE

Im not tho.

Its media/politicians that is making it the core issue/talking point, instead of adressing inequality/predatory economics.

And in that regard, media/politicans are the same both in Europa/US.

Last edited by Overflow on 26-Jun-2016 at 09:03 PM.

@Overflow, Iggy

The mistake everyone keeps making and have been for many years even before this campaign is that Trump is somehow inept. Not true. He plays his way, masters it, gets you to play along and then beats you at it. For tactics I'm reminded of Muhammad Ali's "rope a dope"... look it up if you don't know that one.

For Trump, bankruptcy isn't a failure it's just another tool in the kit to get ahead. He himself has admitted to using the finacal rules to his advantage. But hey, it was all by the rules and legal. And he's not the only big wheeler to do it, just maybe the noisiest. GM bankruptcy/bailout anyone? Gawd what a rip off. Who do we fault for those rules?

There's plenty to beat up Trump on, but hitting him where he wants you to hit him won't help much. (see "rope a dope")

Plaz

Last edited by Plaz on 26-Jun-2016 at 09:11 PM.

@Plaz

Yes, using the bankruptcy rules to get ahead is one tactics, but dare I say; there is more money in not going bankrupt?
And the funny thing; a private person isnt allowed to default on his student debt, but a company is allowed to bail.
To top it off, in Citizen United companies are considered people and can donate to campaigns.
But when it comes to liability for economic foul play, they cant be held accountable like a person.

So the point is; for every decade that passes, it seems like the deck is stacked more and more against the *common man*, and in those situations, even a Trump can find his footing on the soap box.

Last edited by Overflow on 26-Jun-2016 at 09:23 PM.

@Chris_Y

Yes a number of people did vote for racist reasons just as a number of people voted because of project fear.

That hardly justifies your " most of the others were just taken in by the lies."

Which is what I took issue with.
Back on the slippery slope of who should be allowed to vote if you go down that route.

Cheers

_________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

@Overflow

Sorry, I seriously misunderstood your post.
Hey, its been one hell of a weekend.
And things will tend to heat up more in the US until the election is over.

The vote in Britain? My general feeling is that it won't really have much effect.
The critical difference between the formation of the European Union and the trade agreement reached in North America (Nafta) was the increase in taxation the European community was burdened by.
And the borders became less secure.
We on the other hand have lowered our tax burdens and strengthened our border security.

Value added taxation is SUCH a misnomer.
No value added, just increased cost.
And taxation in Europe is quite burdensome.
Why let politicians make a hard situation worse?

You know why it is important for the population to retain more of it own income?
Because they will SPEND it stimulating the economy.

And why give so much to those you know you cannot trust?

Last edited by iggy on 26-Jun-2016 at 11:03 PM.

@Overflow

Quote:

Overflow wrote: So Chris, just because media reports massive racist sentiments

In this case it wasn't the media, it was photos of "go home" and worse graffiti on Polish shops, being posted by individuals on Twitter following the result.

_________________
"Miracles we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer" - AJS on Hyperion
Avatar is Tabitha by Eric W Schwartz

@TiredofLife

Quote:

Back on the slippery slope of who should be allowed to vote if you go down that route.

I believe that everybody who has the right to vote should use their vote.

If you vote, you have a right to complain about the result, which is what I'm doing.
My opinion is that it was won due to racism and blatant lying. It was a narrow gap and it wouldn't have taken many people to fall for the lies in order to swing it. Of course people with genuine concerns about immigration and other EU policies would have voted too.

I'm certainly not advocating taking the vote away from anybody, I just think electoral communications shouldn't contain facts that can't be backed up or are misleading. Commercial products can't be advertised like that, so why should it be OK for "ideas"?

_________________
"Miracles we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer" - AJS on Hyperion
Avatar is Tabitha by Eric W Schwartz

@Overflow

Agreed. It is not going to be a pretty site come the general election. He and Hillary are going to clash like two freight trains and their supporters are going to join the fray. Frankly I don't like either side, but dislike one a micro smidge more than the other. Still my choices are two poor ones. : P

Plaz

@pavlor

"While the European Council has no formal legislative power"

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@iggy

It's not a tax adding value, it's a tax on the added value. Each link in the value chain adds VAT on the outgoing price, and are reibursed for the incoming VAT.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@Chris_Y

Quote:

Yes, OK, maybe. I'm reading today of lots of racism against the Polish living in the UK following the result, so it's clear that a number of people voting Leave are just racists who did not even consider any of the facts. Access to the European Common Market is likely to result in the free movement of people too, so even their beliefs were based on lies or - at the very least - assumptions.

Blatantly wrong. There are extreme views on both sides but this view is not indicative of the majority. Many Brexit voters have well thought out reasons beyond what the media chose to cover. The EU is an undemocratic money pit that limits our ability to govern ourselves. It was an obvious vote for many voters to extract our country from that trade organisation gone wrong. We'll renegotiate a trade deal with limited movement of people or else the Europeans will miss out on our trade which has a deficit in their favour = their loss.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Raffaele

Quote:

Actually I am thinking that if Europe has not democratic laws it is us citizens all together in whole continent (yes, including Britain and British People) who need to fight to change effectively how the things work in European Parliament and, no, run away of Britain is not a valid option. It could be perceived as a freedom choice, but in my eyes it is only British people who believed they fought for their freedom and indipendence while they choosen just to run away in panic. Sure it is the first time in history that Britain refuses to fight a war for freedom changing effectively european rules, and decided to seclude themselves from the rest of the continent. If Britain had made the same choice in 1939, putting their heads in the sands like ostrichs leaving Europe to Hitler, we all now were were just a bunch of goose-stepping black suited fascists then. Really Europe is becoming a continent of elder people... Too much sentiments of racism, cultivating local and mainly personal interests, and shortsighted points of view, instead than rise and fight for a common future, a sentiment to leave a better continent for the next generations.

Damn, that was so well said!!
Running away and hiding is so not the solution to any problem.

Quote:

Really I see some points of contacts between real world and with what it has become the scene of Amiga, a community internally divided, apathetic, lost in useless discussions, with hardware and software producers far from the userbase (just like in the real world politicians and rulers are far from citizens), and where userbase itself lives with nostalgia and is closed on itself in a perpetual motion of self references, slowly dying in old age. We in Europe and in Amiga camp do not believe in new generations, and worst thing, we believe we lived the best of our lives in the past (us amigans in the eighties and the nineties)... We are like old rich ladies crying for their past youth that will never come back, instead of enlightening our last years of a brilliant light preparing a path for the generations to come.

Haha, yeah it does apply quite well to many Amigans as well, doesn't it Some totally stuck in the past, refusing to go forward.

_________________
- Don't get fooled by my avatar, I'm not like that (anymore, mostly... maybe only sometimes)
> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote: @Deniil715 Quote: Trade treaties are good Are you sure you are from Sweden? Because you sound like someone from the US. Treaties that destroy a nations maufacturing sector or other forms of productivity are not in the intetests of the citizens of that country. And until Chinese goods improve significantly in quality, the equivication that they are substitutes for goods made elsewhere is questionable.

Sweden is totally dependent on the export of iron and steel. We export millions of tons of steel to China among others. Well known (within that sector) for the high quality of different kinds of steel for different purposes. Wood and music are also big exports. Locking ourselves up and try to build everything ourselves is not a solution. We import lots of electronics, of course. Don't build any of that in Sweden anymore.

The biggest problem with cheap Chinese stuff is that people buy it, not that they produce it or are allowed to sell it to us. If we want to support our locally produced stuff, we should be prepared to pay the premium price for it as well, right? Wrong, for most of us. The majority of us don't go to the local dude on the corner to buy the TV or phone produced in our home country. No, we browse the net for the cheapest price that has the feature set we want. And really, the quality isn't necessarily better in western produced stuff, that has become kind of an illusion.

Putting a political blockade and sanctions isn't really good for anyone.

But of course you're right that local manufacturing has taken its toll. But we are simply not competitive! If we were willing to work 12h/day for 1/5th the pay (like 100 years ago) we could be competitive, but that's not a solution. Automation, that's a modern solution, but it doesn't generate a whole lot of jobs, only a few.

We have to focus where we are strong, and that is in high education, research, development, engineering. Then we have the stuff manufactured in China, that manual labor no-one here want's to do anyway.

_________________
- Don't get fooled by my avatar, I'm not like that (anymore, mostly... maybe only sometimes)
> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

>about racism
I dont think that racism is such preponderant in (any) vote against the EU

This kind of thinking mean a mantra "Europe is good" so if you are not for then
1) you are misinformed
2) you are passeist
3) you are racist

Not far away from a GodWin point...


I dont think that poor people that live in small villages (like the one where my familly come from in Lozere district 3 inhabitants per km2) are racists there are just suffering that
there is no job
farming has became a job that dont pay anymore and often lead to suicide
there is no more public service like trains, hospital, maternity or even a doctor

For example there was a steel factory not far away : it was buyed from the indian Mittal, then it is menaced to close... then the train station is menaced to close down as it was used mainly for steel (but also poor travellers/workers...)
Also other people were producing milks or beef ... you know how well this market is
then other people were civil servant for post office, maternities, etc... closed down too
I think it is the same in a big part of the Great Britain

Also about refugies : it is easy to be for the refugies (like some parisian intellectuals) when you dont live really near of them
Near my mother house at Paris (close to the Bataclan) there are the Sisters of Charity that offers food to the refugies each day : it is a mess each day some are drunks some fight themselves or piss on doors...
Note that most of them are NOT truly refugies : I mean people suffering about their race/religion or politic opinion but just poors that come from everywhere pakistanis, ex URSS countries, black africans, arabic, afganis,etc...

If racism was leading the "No to Europe" vote then it should occurs only where there are refugies but this is not the case

Also about "we must go forward to new tech and let industry to china"
1) This is almost racist to think that chinese people wont going to master new techs too : it will happen and already happening see the chinese smartphones

2) I am working in a big network company (Orange) and even here the direction say you are too much (employes) and programming (and equipments) begin to be delocalized to Romania despite the fact we got lots of skillfull programmers
Even application servers are delocalized : You may think they will stay in France were electricity cost not much (due to nuclear) but old power plants burning coal in Romania are low cost

So industry/jobs go only where is the low cost
and low cost is where the currency/life level is low

The day that Chinese Yuan will go up then industry will go to India,Bangladesh or Pakistan or other low currency country

Alain Thellier

Last edited by thellier on 27-Jun-2016 at 09:59 AM.

@Chris_Y

Quote:

Chris_Y wrote: @TiredofLife Quote: Back on the slippery slope of who should be allowed to vote if you go down that route. I believe that everybody who has the right to vote should use their vote. If you vote, you have a right to complain about the result, which is what I'm doing. My opinion is that it was won due to racism and blatant lying. It was a narrow gap and it wouldn't have taken many people to fall for the lies in order to swing it. Of course people with genuine concerns about immigration and other EU policies would have voted too. I'm certainly not advocating taking the vote away from anybody, I just think electoral communications shouldn't contain facts that can't be backed up or are misleading. Commercial products can't be advertised like that, so why should it be OK for "ideas"?

Your certainly entitled to your opinion but I would like to hear what it's based on.
It's my opinion the vote was narrow only because of lot of people were frightened to vote leave.
Some not all, as a result of the remain campaign.
This is based on what people have said to me before and after the vote.

As I said earlier, neither side covered themselves in glory with this campaign.
I wouldn't put too much faith in either side and I know many others didn't.
Most (certainly not all) people are more intelligent than you seem to be giving them credit for.

Cheers

_________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.