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pavlor
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 30-Jun-2016 15:30:27
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Elite Member |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9578
From: Unknown | | |
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| @bison
That is why we have hard to dissolve legislatures (voters aren´t important until next elections).
Constitutional theory made great progress since the days of Plato (separation of powers, two chambered legislature, fixed term limits for top elected officials etc.). Last edited by pavlor on 30-Jun-2016 at 03:40 PM.
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Kronos
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 30-Jun-2016 15:33:48
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Elite Member |
Joined: 8-Mar-2003 Posts: 2553
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Overflow
(bout linked article)
Funny thing is most EU critics both in the UK and Europe are even worse neoliberal than those allready in charge....
@Hammer
UK joining NAFTA ? Nice idea, zero chance of happening.
Even if it did, most UK trade is with Europe so expect decades of slow economy before getting back to where it was 1 week ago
The EU will have to drive a hard bargain with the UK in order:
- stop Norway and Switzerland from trying to renogotiate their deal - make *exit unaatractive for everybody
One should not forget that it was the UK allways standing on the brakes when it came to actually reforming the EU, and that it was all the opt-out from London that lead to other trying to cherrypicking what part of the EU they would actually implement. _________________ - We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet - blame Canada |
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Overflow
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 30-Jun-2016 15:38:44
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Super Member |
Joined: 12-Jun-2012 Posts: 1628
From: Norway | | |
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| @Kronos
Not doubting that a fair share of the EU critics from the upper echelon of the political life is just as bad/worse neoliberals than those in charge, but does that make neoliberalism a good thing?
2 wrongs doesnt make 1 right and all that jazz. |
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ASiegel
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 30-Jun-2016 18:00:45
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Joined: 22-Oct-2013 Posts: 212
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Hammer
Quote:
Hammer wrote:
Canada and EU has a "free trade" agreement i.e. CETA. Would EU include "unlimited migration" with Canada? |
No, they do not.
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https://direct.tnt.co.uk/blog/the-uks-top-five-trading-partners-of-2015 1. USA (non-EU, trade surplus) 2. Germany (trade deficit) 3. China (non-EU, trade deficit) 4. Switzerland (non-EU, trade surplus) 5. Netherlands (trade deficit)
"Globalization" says Hi.
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If included, the EU would be on the top of the list ... by quite a margin.
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Good luck selling services to countries that are 6,000+ km from where your local businesses and service workers are located...
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Distance between UK and NAFTA is 5804.29 Km
USA's Alaska to New York is 5,344 Km USA's Atlantic coast (NC) to Pacific coast (CA) is 4,180 km
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You forgot Hawaii. It is located 7,884 km from New York and of similar economic importance to the service sector in New York as Alaska or, say, the city of Manchester, which was exactly my point.Last edited by ASiegel on 30-Jun-2016 at 06:02 PM.
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QuikSanz
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 30-Jun-2016 20:40:51
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Joined: 28-Mar-2003 Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca. | | |
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| @Zylesea
Quote:
Zylesea wrote:
Of course unemployment isnot Zero in the UK. Situation is pretty much like in Germany. The usual English guy is not willing to work for those Conditions the deliberate ppl from bulgaria or Romania are. Hence, cost for farmers and eventually for the customers will rise. If you close borders for the East European that is. And if you don't close borders, you could stay in the EU in first place. Really, i can understand that ppl don't like the EU, but the alternatives are worse. Better approach: Change the EU, don't leave it. |
The same thing the liberals tell us here in the US while there are almost 95 mil people of working age unemployed.
If you subtract the disabled, Stay at home moms and The upper 2% that can retire early you still end up with a 20% minimum unemployment.
Get the dependents working first then import workers. Disney and SCE are only 2 companies that are replacing citizens with foreigners in California. Enough already. |
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Zylesea
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 30-Jun-2016 23:32:57
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Elite Member |
Joined: 16-Mar-2004 Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG | | |
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| @QuikSanz
Quote:
QuikSanz wrote:
If you subtract the disabled, Stay at home moms and The upper 2% that can retire early you still end up with a 20% minimum unemployment.
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And? Are these 20% willing to work for those conditions the deliberate ppl from the poorer countries are?
Albeit I don't like this modern slavery (misusing the need of the poorer to make them accept unfair conditions/low wages), it's not easy to change. The average ppl would need to be willing to pay fair prices. Most ppl aren't though. But then don't coplain if ppl form poorer countries come to your land.
_________________ My programs: via.bckrs.de MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001) |
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Overflow
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 30-Jun-2016 23:44:26
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Super Member |
Joined: 12-Jun-2012 Posts: 1628
From: Norway | | |
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| @Zylesea
When worker to CEO ratio goes from 1:5 to 1:500 in a few decades, there are money in the system, just not in the hands of the masses.
The riches 62 people got as much wealth as half the worlds population.
Meanwhile we keep talking about competing amongst eachother about being willing to work for low wages to be competitive etc. People are looking in the wrong direction.
Richard Wolff discusses economics and Brexit;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X51jzeFvscY |
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QuikSanz
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 1-Jul-2016 1:11:31
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Super Member |
Joined: 28-Mar-2003 Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca. | | |
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| @Zylesea,
Quote:
Zylesea wrote: @QuikSanz
Quote:
QuikSanz wrote:
If you subtract the disabled, Stay at home moms and The upper 2% that can retire early you still end up with a 20% minimum unemployment.
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And? Are these 20% willing to work for those conditions the deliberate ppl from the poorer countries are?
Albeit I don't like this modern slavery (misusing the need of the poorer to make them accept unfair conditions/low wages), it's not easy to change. The average ppl would need to be willing to pay fair prices. Most ppl aren't though. But then don't coplain if ppl form poorer countries come to your land.
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Back in the day we had a program for seasonal workers. That came in and took care of such things. Now they just let them in and it's out of hand. Construction jobs are gone and wages have dropped.
When I was a kid first jobs were fast food, Now you have people that are 40 years old behind the counter and the are desperate complaining that they want $15 dollars an hour. with Obamacare they can't afford this and are now making robots to replace them. The only place I still see kids is "In and Out Burger".
So no! fill the needs of citizens first and close the border! open for certain folks and don't give jobs away.
Chris Sanz |
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iggy
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 1-Jul-2016 4:01:42
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Joined: 20-Oct-2010 Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA | | |
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| @QuikSanz
Funny, except for managers, all the staff of our local fast food restaurants are minors. And while we have plenty of immigrants in our area too, THEY all work. And health care has been relatively cheap, especially in comparison to the bank bailout.
Further, its not children asking for a $15 an hour minimum wage, its adults in a broad spectrum of occupations. And they ought to get it.
Lack of jobs? Perhaps lack of quality jobs, but the job market is in better shape than when Bush left office.
If the people in California can't find employment, maybe they should follow the advice of the Republican saint Ronald Reagan and become entrepreneurs. Oh yeah, even with really low prime lending rates the banks ask for untenably high rates of return and turn down most that would like to pursue this route.
So where do you think those funds to recreate manufacturing capacity are going to come from, all the funds of our wealthiest, if invested, are invested overseas.
How do you think these fantasies Trump is spouting will be realized? The man has no understanding of economics. Were we to cut into imports in order to encourage production in the US, the combined factors of the need to invest in new manufacturing facilities and the higher costs of production would cause inflation to skyrocket. There would be limited foriegn markets for these overpriced goods. And countries negatively impacted by our new tariffs would like enact their own retalitory tariffs.
Back to aliens, you got the funds for 20 to 40 million plane tickets for the people who YOU think are taking jobs away from Americans (but they ARE working, which is obviously more than the unemployed you've mentioned are)?
Oh and how WOULD Donald get Mexico to pay for that wall? Which, if it was built, would not prevent people from using boats to get here (after all, Mexico has coastline on both the Atlantic and the Pacific).
Everything Trump has mentioned is poorly thought out. It plays on peoples anger, fear, and prejudices.
How about we raise taxes on the wealthy, increase the minimum wage and spend even more on health care?
Last edited by iggy on 01-Jul-2016 at 04:04 AM. Last edited by iggy on 01-Jul-2016 at 04:02 AM.
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Hammer
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 1-Jul-2016 5:26:37
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Elite Member |
Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 5246
From: Australia | | |
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| @ASiegel The shortest distance between the UK and Canada is 3130 kms. That's 1945 miles.
Quote:
If included, the EU would be on the top of the list ... by quite a margin.
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Wrong.
https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/EU_and_Non-EU_Data.aspx
Non-EU Exports for April 2016 were £13.0 billion. This was an increase of £0.1 billion (0.8 per cent). There was a decrease of £2.5 billion (15.9 per cent) compared with April 2015.
Non-EU Imports for April 2016 were £21.9 billion. This was an increase of £2.2 billion (11 per cent) compared with last month, and an increase of £6.0 billion (38 per cent) compared with April 2015.
In Non-EU trade the UK was a net importer this month, with imports exceeding exports by £8.9 billion. EU Exports for April 2016 were £12.0 billion. This remained unchanged compared with last month. There was an increase of £1.1 billion (10 per cent) compared with April 2015.
EU Imports for April 2016 were £19.1 billion. This was a decrease of £1.0 billion (4.9 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £1.3 billion (7.1 per cent) compared with April 2015.
In EU trade the UK was a net importer this month, with imports exceeding exports by £7.1 billion.
The proportion of total exports to the EU was 48 per cent in April 2016. Over the past 18 months, this has ranged from 38 per cent to 48 per cent. The proportion of total imports from the EU was 47 per cent in April 2016. Over the same period, this has ranged between 47 per cent and 55 per cent.
The trade volume for non-EU trade is greater than EU trade.
From http://www.worldstopexports.com/united-kingdoms-top-import-partners/
In 2015, United Kingdom incurred the highest trade surpluses with the following countries:
1.Switzerland: US$22.5 billion (country-specific trade deficit in 2015)
2.United States: $9.1 billion
3.United Arab Emirates: $8.8 billion
4.Hong Kong: $6.7 billion
5.Ireland: $6.4 billion
6.Saudi Arabia: $4.3 billion
7.Singapore: $4 billion
8.Australia: $2.6 billion
9.Azerbaijan: $865.2 million
10.Macedonia: $762.5 million (candidate for accession to the European Union)
UK profited(surplus) mostly from non-EU partners.
http://indaily.com.au/opinion/2016/06/28/australia-should-aim-for-a-trade-deal-with-the-uk-post-brexit/
OECD analysis shows Germany protects its services industries more than the UK.
Greater German restrictions on foreign services suppliers would make the EU position as a whole less liberal.
Germany is practicing trade protectionism and the Australians doesn't like it. If they gimped Australians, they'll will gimped USA i.e. the stalled USA-EU free trade agreement (The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) .Last edited by Hammer on 01-Jul-2016 at 03:27 PM. Last edited by Hammer on 01-Jul-2016 at 05:28 AM.
_________________ Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68) Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68) |
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Hammer
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 1-Jul-2016 5:31:46
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Elite Member |
Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 5246
From: Australia | | |
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| @Kronos
EU bureaucracy is "big government" gone mad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0 _________________ Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68) Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68) |
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olegil
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 1-Jul-2016 8:18:37
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Joined: 22-Aug-2003 Posts: 5895
From: Work | | |
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| @Hammer
That's some good solid evidence of why Brexit will work out fine right there. Btw, I never noticed you're in Australia until now.
As a Norwegian, I am really happy to see UK exiting EU. Now, if only Norway would cut ties with EEC as well, we could begin shutting them down for real
EFTA is reduced to Norway and Iceland, with UK on our side we would be big on oil, gas, electricity, fish and technology. EU desperately needs us, and we're constantly working out deals to avoid them. Like exporting salmon to places like China. EU are also desperate to use Norwegian hydropower as buffer for their nuclear/coal/wind power, which is going to cost Norwegian consumers DEARLY in the near future. UK providing us with cheap baseline nuclear and excess wind power while we give back cheap peak power for when folks come home from work would work nicely for me. Buffering UK is a tad different in scale to buffering for all of EU...
I'm not a big fan, as should be fairly obvious without needing to read between the lines _________________ This weeks pet peeve: Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean. |
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Overflow
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 1-Jul-2016 8:29:16
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Joined: 12-Jun-2012 Posts: 1628
From: Norway | | |
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| @olegil
But the problem in Norway, as I said in earlier posts, Norwegian politicians LOVES EU (with the exception of Senterpartiet), and are doing their best to assimilate EU legislation. Even if its against our constitution; like putting our Finance agency under ESA. Hopefully Brexit will refocus voters onto this fact, since its highlighted that its not all bliss and unicorns in EU. The ESA issue got fasttracked, and Labour (AP) joined Høyre (Right/conservatives) in rejecting an extended discussion on the topic, even tho Constitutional law professors stated it was against the law.
I guess this blalant disregard for voters AND law will isn't unique to Norway TTP/TTIP/TISA is barely being discussed, and you have to read newspapers like Nationen to get regular discussions/articles on it. The mainstream media/newspapers are sticking to the xenophobia narrative for maximum sold copies and clicks. Its pretty sad to witness.
Betrayal on every level.
On a lighter note; I just got a message from postal service that my Vampire 600 just arrived!! Last edited by Overflow on 01-Jul-2016 at 08:30 AM.
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thellier
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 1-Jul-2016 8:31:30
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Joined: 2-Nov-2009 Posts: 263
From: Paris | | |
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| @Iggy
>20 to 40 million plane tickets for the people who YOU think are taking jobs away from Americans
It dont happen this way: In France the "Frontiers Police" rent a plane that is driven by a "Frontiers Police" pilot = not so much a cost
Like I already said most of the people that are wandering in Europe and that the medias call "Migrants or Refugees" are in fact not "real refugees" (= prosecuted for their religion/race/politic) but only poor people that mainly want to go UK for working : so perhaps this problem is mainly UK side
See the graphics a lots of those people are coming from countries NOT in war http://m.le360.ma/page.php?link=/monde/immigration-la-france-expulse-dabord-les-roumains-les-albanais-puis-les-algeriens-77588 Also a lot come from Romania despite (or due to) the fact that this country is in EU: it explain as Romanian an French are both latin langages so they can speak French
It also very revealing that when some help associations give them formulars at Calais and say something like "simply fill this refugee formular and if you are a refugee you will be accepted/helped in France" then they refuse and say "No I want to go works in UK
Also as I already said there are lots of "migrants" near my mother home at Paris where the Sister of Charity give them food : Once I was coming back from a trek a few dirty with a bag on the back I was aboarded from a man in a mercedes (kinda East Europe maffia look) "you want works ... you speak french ... come" So as soon as those por people are coming in France there are some people ready to make them works for low wages/bad conditions = raw capitalist exploitation
Alain Thellier
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Overflow
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 1-Jul-2016 8:40:45
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Joined: 12-Jun-2012 Posts: 1628
From: Norway | | |
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| @thellier
So, did you take the job?! |
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g01df1sh
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 1-Jul-2016 13:18:19
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Super Member |
Joined: 16-Apr-2009 Posts: 1777
From: UK | | |
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| @Overflow
Can mods please close this thread as it has lost its connection with how the EU out vote would effect Amiga related products and companies.
Thanks _________________ A1200 ACA1232 128MB Indivison MkIICr Elbox empty Power Tower RPi3 Emulating C64 ZX Atari PS BBC Wii with Amiga emulation Vampire v4 SA |
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Zylesea
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 1-Jul-2016 14:07:56
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Joined: 16-Mar-2004 Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG | | |
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| @QuikSanz
Well, maybe it's different in other countries, but somehow I doubt it. I give you an example from my neighbourhood why it's good to pen the borders for ppl. Here many farmer produce aspargus (very high quality). They pay kind of okayish wages/hour - not huge, but also no robbery. The farmers expect good work for fair money. Usually this doesn't work out with German workers. They prefer Romanian and Bulgarian workers, most of them seasonal. They work hard and earn enough money to finace their winter life in Romania/Bulgaria.The few Germans who start to work on the fields usually quit the job after a brief time of work again. teh farmers here have given up to look for Germans, they have their reliable Roman/Bulgarian workers who come again each year for work. If you wouldn't allow these East Europeans to enter this market for work, the aspargus farmers could plough their plantation straight away and ask for state scial help. Their business would have blunty ended. The aspargus is about 5-12EUR/kg, so not a real cheap vegetable (but worth the pice). If you would pay wages that make German workers motivated to do the job reliable, the price would increase quite a lot. Eventually less ppl would buy aspargus. In this case opening the borders makes a maths that works out for all. Poorer have the chance to earn at least enough money to make their living, local farmers have a sufficient income and customers get an affordable product. Problem is: Things are different for other markets. Meat and butchering are also strong here. And there the workes are rather slaves than ppl that get a chance. Maybe it would be better for them not to come to Germany to find themselves in really poor working conditions with highly nasty contracts.
Bottom line: Situation is difficult and no side is100% right or wrong. GB voted to leave EU. I think it was the wrong decision, but we will have a case study now which countries wil develop better - which doesn't mean economically only, but overall (pretty difficult to measure). _________________ My programs: via.bckrs.de MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001) |
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iggy
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 1-Jul-2016 14:53:36
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Joined: 20-Oct-2010 Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA | | |
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| @thellier
Sorry, that was a comment directed to the Californian's post. Europes problems are more complex thanks to their proximity to so many countries producing refugees and the more porous borders. You are lucky your immigrants and migrants are willing to learn the language of the country they have relocated to. The resistance to that here has to be one of the major sources of friction. |
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QuikSanz
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 1-Jul-2016 16:45:11
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Joined: 28-Mar-2003 Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca. | | |
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| Look, It's not enough for half of the millions learn the language, weather they come from Venezuela, Mexico or ISIS. We need to know who they are and if they qualify to be here they MUST assimilate into the culture or lawlessness follows. We only need the bresaro program back and that will take care of the farming community. Back in the the day they would come in during the season and take the money home and build up the house or build a garage. We can't take everyone. How about they fix up their own country and prosper. Or maybe we just take Mexico and do it for them!
Last edited by QuikSanz on 01-Jul-2016 at 04:51 PM.
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pavlor
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Re: IN or OUT EU Posted on 1-Jul-2016 16:49:08
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Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9578
From: Unknown | | |
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| @QuikSanz
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How about they fix up their own country and prosper. |
Core of the problem.
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Or maybe we just take Mexico and do it for them! |
Sounds like Kipling... |
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