@Nimrod

Quote:

but by a cabal of unelected commissioners.

If I read EU treaties right, European Council (heads of states/governments of member states) nominates President of the European Commission, who is then elected by European Parliament (directly elected body). European Council then (in agreement with the President of the European Commission) appoints other Commission members and the entire Commision is approved by European Parliament. It is quite similar to government/cabinet forming in most european countries with parliamentary system (like UK).

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

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@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @Nimrod Quote: but by a cabal of unelected commissioners. If I read EU treaties right, European Council (heads of states/governments of member states) nominates President of the European Commission, who is then elected by European Parliament (directly elected body). European Council then (in agreement with the President of the European Commission) appoints other Commission members and the entire Commision is approved by European Parliament. It is quite similar to government/cabinet forming in most european countries with parliamentary system (like UK).

All of these people cost money, a lot of money. And when you have governments in place in each country too - upper and lower houses, select committees, advisers etc. politics is expensive - more so when the job is effectively being done twice.

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@g01df1sh

Quote:

.. what effect if any leaving the EU would have on the current Amiga status?

Aeon / Amigakit: UK companies getting in trouble when sending their stuff into the EU.

MorphOS Team: Some UK Users might get a harder time, ordering used Macs from the EU

AROS: None

Amiga Inc.: Being dead as before

@OneTimer1

Different VAT in different countries, other than that’s there is no issue. You need to provide a Performa invoice to declare the what you're selling or shipping.

http://www.vertex42.com/ExcelTemplates/proforma-invoice.html

The tax difference between two countries is about +/- 1 to 3%, so price won't be that different.
Some good that is bellow a minimum value is not tax'ed.

UK going out of the EU will probably need to renegotiate, trading deals, probably UK will need to join EFTA. This means that you won't be able to completely detach yourself from the EU's, none democratic top down Legistrations.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-May-2016 at 11:56 PM.

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@A1200

i watch something the other day that said all the civil sevants in Eu total to 55,000, which sound a lot at first, but then it goes on to say thats to represent 500million people, and then the fact that in uk we have over 400,000 civil sevants just goes to show that the Eu isent that big of an organisation in contrast.

I do think they are over paid, most earn more than the PM, and I do think more democracy and transparency needs to be present in the Eu. Again this is something I think the eu is slowly realising with the rise of the far right extreme / national party rising.

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@all

I would prefer Britain remaining part of the EU. Partly for selfish reasons, and partly because the EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU.

Whilst living in the UK, never had it crossed my mind that the UK may one day vote to leave the EU, even though, thinking back, I should have realised this was a distinct possibility due to the simple fact that this debate has never really died.

The IN OUT debate has gestated for decades, like a tortoise who's never successfully moved it's bowls. I was not smart enough at the time to apply for my UK citizenship while I had the chance. Sadly, if the UK citizenry were to vote OUT, access to Britain becomes difficult, especially when considering a future career, or a country one may want to go back to at some stage in life.

Saying this, if I were British born, I would be voting OUT. The one thing that rubbed off on me when I lived in the UK was that British bulldog spirit, "we don't need to depend on anyone else!"... there was something attractive about this type of island fever, a type of stoic independence that some nations have all but lost... from a distance however, the reality of trying to "go it alone" is such a different concept, if rather a daunting one...

Q!

"currently not in the EU"

@thread

It is a natural tendency for people to want to run back to something they know when the new thing isn't quite working out. The problem is, you can never go back: Because you can't wind the whole world back. Any previously perceived "good" state had come about through a complex network of system events and there is no way to replicate that. So rather than 'undo' they are actually creating a new state which is just as different from the current as the current one is from the previous.

No man is an island.

Unless UK embarks on a war path, the only way to maintain power and influence in 21C is through political and economic discord.

Of course, like with any such decision one must "follow the money".

There are people behind this that believe that they can make more money if UK exits EU and they will push this view. Naturally they will sell the public a different bill of goods; Something they can understand and care about. They'll tell everyone how there is a "very simple" solution to their concerns about employment, cost of living, security, etc.

I keep finding it amusing that there are people still out there who subscribe to 'democracy'.

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All the way, with 68k

@those out side the the EU this might help understand the debate going on here in the UK

https://youtu.be/j0pwXLtvt2w

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@pavlor
(more explanations for non european readers...)
Yes I agree but in fact the European commission (not elected) develop a "politic program" that no one has (directly) voted for
(The better proof is a what currently happen with the pure secret discussions about the TAFTA no one has directly voted for that....)

This is not the same thing as when you vote for a (say) liberal party that engaged itself to make his liberal program

Also this is only the (not elected) European commission that redact European Directives (=laws) then the parliament (elected) can vote for or reject them
but the parliament CANT have the initiative to redact itself a law
So there is an asymetry as parliament can only refuse but never propose

This is why I say it is not democratic
Also there was the rejected referendum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitution_for_Europe

Alain

Last edited by thellier on 24-May-2016 at 09:12 AM.

Quote:

g01df1sh wrote: We don't want intel on the inside so why would we want the EU lol

Wow, well that's me swayed anyway

Are political discussions like this really a good thing on an Amiga-specific forum? I know there was a tenuous link to the Amiga, but it seems the discussion doesn't have much to do with Amigas at all.

But anyway, as ain immigrant in the UK, I will be voting to stay. The ease of moving between EU countries should not be underestimated, and if you think of all the British ex-patriots living elsewhere in Europe, you might realise that there are benefits to being in a union with no visa requirements. The flip side as well is that it will be harder for foreign workers to come and work in the UK. This will have a pretty big effect on the arts for a start, where many of the top classical musicians currently working in the UK are from other EU states.

Also, as Kolla pointed out, there are serious implications to Northern Ireland, which could mean damaging the fragile peace that currently exists there. Leaving the EU will likely damage the economy there too, which will only further strain relationships between the two countries (Republic of Ireland and the UK). It will also damage the economy in the Republic of Ireland due to the strong trade that is done between them and the UK. And Scotland, after being told by the UK government that voting for independence would be bad for them because it meant leaving the EU, will likely hold a second referendum so they can reapply for EU membership as an independent state. So it would probably mean the end of the UK, though I think most people would be better off if it stayed intact. I feel that Northern Ireland's peace isn't worth risking for whatever nationalistic pride certain parts of the UK exhibit.

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@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote: ... any form of democratically elected body but by a cabal of unelected commissioners.

I thought UK citizens were all for that, what with their unelected House of Lords and all.

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RobTheNerd.com | InstallerGen | SMBMounter | Atoms-X

I actually think the good thing if the UK leaves the EU is that Brussels must change some things. EU became not what many ppl wanted it to become. It shold shrinked healthy for a restart. Less money, less rules, less expansion.
Lets's go a few steps back to straighten the direction EU should go.

But as I love the UK (and north England in particular), I hope relation of the UK with the EU will stay good and close even if the UK leaves the EU.
And I must say I guess we see the future of Europe in the UK. The UK was always kind of ahead of rest of Europe (doesn't mean better or so, but they were first in world trade, then first in industrialization, then first in post industrialization etc.). the continent followed all these trends (sometimes done better, because we had a case study already - the UK). Hence watch and learn what's going on in the UK.

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@Zylesea

can we get back on topic. We are loosing the Amiga link to this topic on how it might be effected.

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@g01df1sh

The UK on its own can install fully independent IT infrasructure no matter what EU rules say. How about putting UK's national IT on Amiga - huh? That way the potential Brexit could have quite an impact to Amiga

Vote "in" to keep Amiga down.

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@All

In addition to voting OUT the EU, why doesn't Britain take the opportunity to vote out the Pound, and select Bitcoin (or BitGold) instead...? and vote out Microsoft, vote IN Amiga as the official computer for Britain! :)

Q!

"nowhere near the EU at the moment!"

Last edited by QuBe on 24-May-2016 at 01:44 PM.
Last edited by QuBe on 24-May-2016 at 01:44 PM.

@g01df1sh

I'll be voting to stay in (albeit with some reservations).

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Robert
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@JurassicC

Quote:

this might help understand the debate going on here in the UK

Well, one side of it.

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@thellier

Quote:

This is not the same thing as when you vote for a (say) liberal party that engaged itself to make his liberal program

Well, current Commission President was choice of European Parliament itself. Don´t blame unelected "cabal", blame voters...

Quote:

So there is an asymetry as parliament can only refuse but never propose

Good idea for discussion about EU reform. However, change would mean more power to EU institution (Parliament), less power to states (Council(s) ).

Quote:

This is why I say it is not democratic

Every country/institution has some democratic deficiencies. Eg. many MP in UK were voted in office by mere plurality of votes, majority of voters supported another candidates in these constituencies.

Quote:

amigang wrote: @A1200 i watch something the other day that said all the civil sevants in Eu total to 55,000, which sound a lot at first, but then it goes on to say thats to represent 500million people, and then the fact that in uk we have over 400,000 civil sevants just goes to show that the Eu isent that big of an organisation in contrast.

Does that 400,000 include Police, Firemen, Teachers, Doctors, Nurses etc? Because all of those are considered civil servants, at least I have always been told they are! :D