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      /  IN or OUT EU
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PosterThread
Raffaele 
Re: IN or OUT EU
Posted on 29-Aug-2016 4:09:35
#401 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@Overflow

Quote:

Overflow wrote:
The immigration issue is just the stereotype label put on Brexit supporters to steer the discussion away from the decreasing democracy in EU, and as a result of socalled Free Trade treaties.
They have nothing to do with Free Trade, but more about shifting funds from the citizens to the top % (hedgefunders, CEOs etc).

The revolving door between goverments and banks/private complanies has lead to Brexit.

To sum it up into two words: Systemic corruption.


Decreasing if democracy? In Britain? One of the most democratic country in the world? Are you joking?

Real problem is that despite democracy, all governs, labour or conservative embraced a politics of cut state fundings in favour of more libertarian (read capitalistic) methods of governance, methods that implies British people must spend their money to receive privately the same services that since then, it were held publicly by state, and that were always been funded by the entire active population of UK by paying taxes at a quite normal percentage to sustain these state services.

Tragic is governs do not care at all of democratic approval to abruptly cut these services.

An example for all, it is the continuous commits of laws written in order to dismantle welfare state as it is happening with British National Health System...

It is hilarious that those who sustain Brexit claim foreign people want to enter Britain mainly to benefit of these welfare state facilities that they are dismantling.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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pavlor 
Re: IN or OUT EU
Posted on 29-Aug-2016 6:48:35
#402 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@QuikSanz

Quote:
Europe is not a paradise right now, except for maybe Ireland since they threw out the socialists and now have around a 7% GDP growth.


Although my country has much lower GDP/capita than US, my friends/family members working in the US (mainly international science projects) don´t want to stay abroad or even raise family there. Benefits we have in the Czech Republic (mother leave, much longer vacation time, universal healthcare etc.) outweight higher salary in the US. In comparison to the US, yes Europe is a paradise...

Quote:
That is why I like to be self sufficient and would retire off the grid if I could.


Fair point of view. However, we have tradition here to help the less fortunate to hold our society together. If everyone cared only for himself, the poor would hang us on the next tree (well, I hope not literally).

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pavlor 
Re: IN or OUT EU
Posted on 29-Aug-2016 6:51:01
#403 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

Quote:
Decreasing if democracy? In Britain?


They have no right to silence in some criminal cases. Unbelievable in civilized country.

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Overflow 
Re: IN or OUT EU
Posted on 29-Aug-2016 8:25:36
#404 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1628
From: Norway

@Raffaele

You started by telling me I must be joking in the first line, then you continued by agreeing with me below. In effect.

Yes, you have elections in UK, USA, France, Greece, etc and where I live; Norway.
But the politicians are increasingly removed from the plight of the working man and woman.
Additionally the media is being purchased by larger and larger conglomerates that increasingly omits important news that would make citizens a informed voter.

Take Norway. We got the socalled Left and Right parties; Arbeidarpartiet (labour) and Høyre (Conservatives). Like in USA (Dems/Rep) they preform theatrics pretending to disagree on some issues, and largely its on smaller local issues that doesnt really have a large impact.
But on the BIG picture politics, like financial and structural changes to goverment, they largely agree.
Currently Labour (Arbeiderpartiet) is critizising the centralization that Høyre (Conservatives) is working for, and the bloating of the goverment. When Labour was in office, they did the same.
In addition; over 70% of norwegians voted to stay the hell out of EU.
The solution? Both labour and conservatives are fastracking EU regulations even tho some of them are against our Constitution.
Then you might say; OMG! Im sure they took a beating in the media over this. Journalists surely had tons of fun harassing every single politiicans over basically criminal behaviour!!??
Nope, it was mentioned, but largely the journalists agree with the new structure, so they gave it a pass. The press is supposed to be the check and balance to goverment, but thats largely not the case anymore; on the BIG structual changes. Its not even talked about. It doesnt generate clicks compared to the latests news about Kathy Perry, Bieber etc etc.
We also voted for or against uniting counties into larger counties/structures, and by a large majority we voted it down. Now they want to FORCE it, against the will of the people. Either by downright force or negative incentives; "if your county doesnt join with your neighbouring county, we will cut the fundings you recive from the central goverment."
Democracy as long as we agree with the politicians....?

Take UK; same is happening there. Whatever you might think of Jeremy Corbyn, he atleast has grassroots support. His labour shadow cabinet is trying their hardest to undermine him, even trying methods that are against the law to get rid of him. So there is a difference between the party elites and the actual voters.

Then you got Le Pen in France, that might very well take over, or atleast get alot of power after the upcoming election. Hollande is a socalled socialist, but hes largely following the EU austerity program, and using force against protesters. A socialist using force against the masses? I guess his idealism didnt run very far. But hes a rat in a maze. The structural failings is forcing politicians into counterproductive actions, as long as they doesnt actually try to take care of the core problems.
Each time the system has a major crash, tax payers has to recover the economy for the banks/companies, and the anger increases. Its the perfect situation for demagogues like Trump to get a hearing, since standard politicians doesnt actually provide ANYTHING but lipservice to its voters. A desperate man will reach out to ANYONE (eventually) if hes drowning.
And thats what you are seeing all over the world.

As it is now, it doesnt matter WHO you vote for of the established parties, they largely agree on the big structural policies. So then the question is; is it really democracy, or a two way road which leads to the same destination?

So you started by disagreeing with me, but continued by agreeing. I guess you feel something is wrong, but havent connected the dots.

Last edited by Overflow on 29-Aug-2016 at 09:00 AM.
Last edited by Overflow on 29-Aug-2016 at 08:37 AM.
Last edited by Overflow on 29-Aug-2016 at 08:36 AM.

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Zylesea 
Re: IN or OUT EU
Posted on 29-Aug-2016 9:14:31
#405 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@QuikSanz

Quote:
Europe is not a paradise right now, except for maybe Ireland since they threw out the socialists and now have around a 7% GDP growth.


Although my country has much lower GDP/capita than US, my friends/family members working in the US (mainly international science projects) don´t want to stay abroad or even raise family there. Benefits we have in the Czech Republic (mother leave, much longer vacation time, universal healthcare etc.) outweight higher salary in the US. In comparison to the US, yes Europe is a paradise...


Plus, the better beer

Fun aside, I think it's part of being actually used to one society system. In Europe social care has some tradition and as a European guy I don't want to miss that. For others, who are used to another system this may sound like "evil socialism".
As a German I would easily move to Czech republic or Slovakia or to the Netherlands or [fill in almost any EU country + Switzerland] and would feel rather instantly home (apart from language barriers that is), while in the US I would probably feel kind of wrongly accomondated (not too bad though and I guess there are way harder things than moving from EU to the US, but actually there are quite a few differences between EU and US and I - as a Euopean - prefer to stay within Europe). Of course there are differences in EU countries, but there are differences in the US staes as well. Comparing Greece with Danmark or Ireland is probably about Washington with Missouri or Texas.

_________________
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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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Overflow 
Re: IN or OUT EU
Posted on 29-Aug-2016 9:19:53
#406 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1628
From: Norway

@Zylesea

I lived 2 years in Florida, and 1.5 years in California (Alameda outside San Fransisco).
While there are differences between Europa and USA, at the end of the day, normal people are just that all over the world.
Friendly and helpful, just doing their daily chores to get thru the day. If there hadnt been a visa freeze after the Twin Towers, I would probarbly still have lived in USA tbh, since I had a job offer just as the 9/11 happened.

The difference isnt THAT great in my honest opinion, altho, I left USA in 2001, so things might have changed.

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thellier 
Re: IN or OUT EU
Posted on 29-Aug-2016 9:29:58
#407 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 263
From: Paris

@Overflow

>Then you got Le Pen in France, that might very well take over, or atleast get alot of power after the upcoming election. Hollande is a socalled socialist, but hes largely following the EU austerity program, and using force against protesters. A socialist using force against the masses? I guess his idealism didnt run very far. But hes a rat in a maze.

Hollande is an opportunist he is a high level civil servant that begin his carreer when Mitterrand ( socialist) was president so it was better for his carreer to be a so called "socialist"

When Manuel Valls become prime minister there was some reactions on the left side :" this guy is neo-liberal and he got only 5 % at socialist primary but he is prime minister so what the f***"
There was even a joke "Hollande made an internal cohabitation, as he got now a right wing prime minister from his own party .... but remenber cohabitation is when president/primeminister are not from same side ... but hollande is right wing too "

Also Marine Le Pen despite his 25% vote is much diabolised even if his politic program is in fact very reasonable (vs Trump one.. ) ... so certainly will not be elected in any way

There is another joke "When you make 25% like Le Pen you got nothing but when you did 5% like Valls you are prime minister


We have reach a level now in manipulation France that whatever will say the Le Pen the journalists will say the opposite is the only " good way"
Pure Godwin points every day from mass media
The same almost apply for others candidates like Dupont-Aignan (a sovereignist) or Mélenchon (a really socialist)

Also an other fact that kill Europe (Eurozone) that dont have been evocated is the fact that States cant emit their own money so there are living "at credit" from the BCE (Central Bank) there is no alternative but only borrow by issuing government bonds
In fact contrary to what mass media said it is not due to the fact that States are not well managed if the debt has began to increase in the 70s but only due to the fact that before the 70s all European state were emitting their own money when needed
Government debt is the good excuse for a politics of cut state fundings : "there is no alternative because we have no money"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_debt

"can result in hyperinflation"
propaganda = Hyperinflation is refering to Germany in 1922 that was more an exception due to Germany own problems
Most of the States in the world emit (or have emited beforee Euro) their own money and dont have dramatic inflation problems








Last edited by thellier on 29-Aug-2016 at 09:32 AM.

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pavlor 
Re: IN or OUT EU
Posted on 29-Aug-2016 9:41:00
#408 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@thellier

Problem is, if you want to win general election, you need center voters on your side. These people want somewhat balanced budged (like their own) and reasonable spending. Leftist program alone would kill socialist party.

However, current president of France looks incompetent even from my country, I can´t even imagine what regular Frenchmen think about him.

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Overflow 
Re: IN or OUT EU
Posted on 29-Aug-2016 9:43:49
#409 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1628
From: Norway

@thellier

My point with Le Pen is;

She and other similar politicans largely talk about external problems, scapegoating. Same with Trump. In Norway we got FRP which is in goverment now with Conservatives. Ofcourse, their election promises is being forgotten once they got in power. They were critizing Labour for bloating the goverment AND wanted to keep Norway for norwegians to put it very crudely.
What happened when they got in goverment?
Goverment has never bloated faster than now, and we absorb EU regulations at a record pace.
Completely opposite of what they where indicating with their critisism of labour.
And for the record; I really dislike Labour too, since they are more or less as bad as Conservatives (in Norway).

Im sure quite a few of Le Pens more reasonable arguments doesnt get headlines in the news, and Ill admit I havent followed French politics as closely as I do US election/politics.
Ive noticed just how bad the norwegian media coverage is of US election/politics or even local news that I know more first hand. The misrepresentation is staggering.

Le Pen being reasonable vs Trump, isnt a hard quest but considering the mismanagement of the banks/corporations are allowed to spin out of control even after the 2008 crash, its no wonder voters listen to them. Even if its misguided.

While Hollande might be incompentent, lets look at the alternative; Sarkozy?! Point is; amongst the established politicans there is degrees of horrible, not Good or bad.

Last edited by Overflow on 29-Aug-2016 at 09:56 AM.
Last edited by Overflow on 29-Aug-2016 at 09:45 AM.
Last edited by Overflow on 29-Aug-2016 at 09:44 AM.

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thellier 
Re: IN or OUT EU
Posted on 29-Aug-2016 11:31:06
#410 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 263
From: Paris

@Overflow

>Hollande might be incompentent, lets look at the alternative

You are absolutely right : in France the system is now locked

Sarkozy & Hollande has proven to be incompentents as presidents
Even if those werent candidates : it will be Juppé or Valls that have proven to be pro-neo-liberal-Europe when they were prime-ministers...
Le Pen will never reach a majority like all the other candidates...

So certainly Sarkozy will be reelected...

But people are angry here in France and like we said "le feu couve" meaning the fire is smoldering and there are no visible flames, but just turn the air a few and all will ablaze...



Alain Thellier


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