@pavlor

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Too far reaching statement.

I don't think so.

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Don´t let all the blame fall on the West, local people also have their fair share.

Obviously. But history plays an extremely important part of this equation.

All one has to do in the case of Palestine, is look at race relationships once the eventual Jewish majority voted in a theocratic government.

At one time Arabs, Jews, and Christians lived in relative peace in that country.

Today the entire Middle East is inflamed thanks to passions derived at least in part from religion.

We in the West carry a very large part of the blame for this situation.

Last edited by iggy on 25-Jun-2016 at 09:02 PM.

@iggy

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Obviously. But history plays an extremely important part of this equation.

Please, enlighten me...

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At one time Arabs, Jews, and Christians lived in relative peace in that country.

When?


Although current Israeli government does everything (im)possible to ruin its own state, it is still only nation in the Middle East with working democratic institutions and rule of law.

@pavlor

Quote:

Enlighten me please

Historically?
We could go back to King Cyrus and his freeing of the Jews.
The fact that Babylonian libraries predate anything the Greeks or Romans had.
The fact that before we adopted Arabic mathmatics we were far more limited in our ability to make calculations.
Or the basic fact that Islam is just an outgrowth of the Jewish and then Christian traditions. Same peoples. Same God.

Isreal is interested in democracy?
Again it is a theocracy where Christians and Muslims are frequently discrimated against.
Thanks to questionable land transfers by the Turks, thousands of Palestinians lost therir land and their homes.

And no, none of this makes me anti-semetic.
My employer, who is also a good friend is Jewish.
It just means that he and I have strong differences of opinion about the the Isreali State.

I have Palestinian Christian friends in the US who's families saw their homes bulldozed and their lands seized.
One of those has an uncle who is a very famous heart surgeon.

Rule of law? One principle the US now holds dear is that the majority should never be able to abuse a minority via political power.
That is exactly what is happening in Isreal.

Then again, we also believe that there should be complete seperation of Church and State and that there should be no Royal families or monarchies.
Most of the world could learn from that including the majority of Europe.

And we, although we fail to admit it, have been foolish enough to arm the Isrealis with nuclear weapons.
By current estimates there are between 150 and 200 missles currently in the Isreali arsenal.

Further, the Isreali State's continuing failure to halt expansion into land that are acknowledged to be Palestianian, their unwillingness to negotiate with their neighbors, their use of massive retation when the feel threatened all point to a country who's leaders have an obvious sense of superiority over those they see as their enemies.

This level of hostility only begs a return of similar regard.

So, to close, the development of hostile radical Islam is DIRECTLY related to how the people in the Middle East have been treated by us.
If you don't understand that, you probably don't understand what happen with the US and its adventure in Vietnam.

Those who fail to remember and consider the lessons of history are doomed to continue to make the same mistakes and slow the progress and evolution of man.

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@iggy

And watching Oliver Stones documentary "The Untold history of the United States" is quite informative.

@mods

this thread is a complete trainwreck. i cannot believe this sort of insulting discussion is allowed on this site.

-- eliyahu

_________________
"Physical reality is consistent with universal laws. When the laws do not operate, there is no reality. All of this is unreal."

@eliyahu,

Yes, sure looks that way.

@iggy

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Again it is a theocracy where Christians and Muslims are frequently discrimated against.

Well, in comparison to other Middle East countries, Isreal is safe haven for religious minorities. I´m maybe a little bit biased as majority religion of my country constitutes serious crime in most countries in that region, except Israel of course.

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This level of hostility only begs a return of similar regard.

Disgusting. Look at human rights record of neighbouring countries and then judge Israel.

As Isreal is friend of both of our governments, we should demand higher standards than in case of others. However, crimes committed by Israeli forces/institutions shall not blind us to see much graver crimes of other state actors in the region.

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So, to close, the development of hostile radical Islam is DIRECTLY related to how the people in the Middle East have been treated by us.

Sure, what to expect from people so liking to live in middle ages...

@eliyahu

Eh, sorry.


Maybe removing this sort of threads from the front page (like in case of Amiga.Inc related discussions) would be better solution than strict ban.

@eliyahu

Hmm, while the thread is put under the wrong section for sure, since its not computerrelated at all, its a rather intresting discussion given the current state of the economy, level of conflicts around the world and the austerity actions of the west in general.

The thread NAME was quite loaded, but Im honestly curious what you find insulting?

@m0lebrain

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This was Merkel's grand plan all along...

Perfect

And here some advice for all people taking this serious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA-i2Pjvfps

@OneTimer1
Quote:

Quote: This was Merkel's grand plan all along... Perfect And here some advice for all people taking this serious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA-i2Pjvfps

I am quite sure Merkel had great influence on the course of events. She invited migrants to germany/EU with open arms and did nothing to stop that crap at all. That **** should resign not Cameron.

Last edited by ExiE on 26-Jun-2016 at 10:50 AM.

@OneTimer1

Something a low tech as that wont work.
You need this -

http://aminet.net/game/gag/MindGuard.lha

Cheers

_________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

@ExiE

Quote:

She invited migrants to germany/EU with open arms and did nothing to stop that crap at all

Willing to help people in need is act of charity, not something deplorable. Sure she (mis)managed current refugee crisis, but her conduct can only be judged by voters in the next elections. As far as I know, "Willkommenskultur" had great support in German society back then, she only did what most of her voters wanted.

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m0lebrain wrote: This was Merkel's grand plan all along...find the trigger (immigration) that would push the Brits out...giving the new Roman Empire back to Germany.

Wait a minute ... You mean it was not USA ?

@pavlor

Immigration/refugees isnt the core issue. Its just the symptom of a systemic problem.
Saying Merkel is charitable is borderline amusing considering how EUs farm policies for example are wrecking both european and foreign economies.

Point is, our policies have effects outside our own little bubble, but as long as we get to purchase cheap junk a childlabourer in x country has produced, who cares right?

@Overflow

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Saying Merkel is charitable is borderline amusing considering how EUs farm policies

Well, knowing few Germans, they really believe they have obligation to help others...

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Point is, our policies have effects outside our own little bubble,

Politicians are accountable only to their voters, other considerations aren´t usually in their mind.

@pavlor
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Willing to help people in need is act of charity, not something deplorable. Sure she (mis)managed current refugee crisis, but her conduct can only be judged by voters in the next elections. As far as I know, "Willkommenskultur" had great support in German society back then, she only did what most of her voters wanted.

Merkels politics is negatively affecting whole Europe not just Germany where she was elected.
Are these people in need single men in mid twenties with expensive cellphones or the rest 5-10 %?

@ExiE

We Czechs obviously have other approach to refugee crisis.


To be more serious, beeing in their position, I wouldn´t stay in failed states. However, local population bears fair share of responsibility for state of their countries, it would be naive to expect they would behave more reasonably in new home. That is why I think we must balance both security and charity: care for them until war ends and then send most of them back to their homeland.

@pavlor

What does knowing a few germans say about its politicians?

Thats like equating all US citizens with Trump. I lived in USA for 3.5 years, and pretty much everyone I met was nice and helpful people just trying to get by the best they could. Like people everywhere basically.

And saying politicians are accountable to their voters, thats also laughable.
I do agree that it becomes true eventually when voters eventually rebel, its just a tragedy it has to go to such extremes.

As a norwegian I see tendencies of that with our politicians. As I wrote in another post, we have rejected EU in 2 referendums, and latest polls show 70% of the people is against EU.
Countrary to this, all the major parties in Norway are implimenting rules and regulations that basically includes us in EU, by sneaking us in the backdoor.
We have started to see some changes in the voting in Norway, away from the establishment parties, but as in USA, people tend to stick to what they know, until its gets really bad.

Its what frustrates me, things has to get really bad before politicians actually cares what the citizens think.

Trump and Hillary is currently the best examples of this.