@TRIPOS

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote: @ferrels Quote: ferrels wrote: There's absolutely no reason for Hyperion to re-release OS3 unless ...unless they: 1) Simply wanted to raise quick cash on old stuff they (Olaf) had laying around on some HDD 2) They are, as kolla said going toe-to-toe with Cloanto on this: Hyperion doesn't own the OS. Never did. They had a license (with Amiga Inc who no longer owns it) to use, develop and market. They don't own the "AmigaOS" trademark either, but has an exclusive license to use it for marketing the OS. Cloanto owns the OS. They have already made a (much more subtle) update and re-release of 3.1. They also markets a much more developed version, the 3.X. They didn't use the trade mark "AmigaOS", since that was occupied. Instead they used the old de-facto name, Workbench. This is also a registered trademark. And this trade mark is, besides the actual OS, owned by Cloanto. And here we have Hyperion, making an (in comparison) incomplete quick'n'dirty ("This is the first test release") recompile of 3.1, that should (as kolla said) really have a warning sign on it. And their usual modus operandi has always been to use as many "AmigaOS" as possible when talking about their products in press releases and on-line. Because this is their exclusively licensed trade mark. But not in this case, suddenly it's rather the opposite. Except the mentioning of the term "AmigaOS" at the end in the initial headline, they are not talking about "AmigaOS" one single time, not once! But all the three paragraphs on the front page, and all three subsequent pages linked to from this, are totally cramped with "Workbench" references, and no, not references to some "window manager", but Workbench® as the product name, the actual name of the Operating System, of the product they sell! Even the product listing in their web shop doesn't use "AmigaOS", but "Workbench 3.1 for desktop Amigas - FREE Workbench 1.3.3 ... - 3.1 (40.43)". And remember, "it's the first official updates in over twenty years for Classic Amiga systems"!

So to recoup a bit:

1. Hyperion's OS effort was always about "NG". Always about "AmigaOS 4" (TM). Not in 1.5 decades has they showed any interest in legacy Amiga machines, other than perhaps for the PowerUP card owners, but then only for the PPC. Never ever been interested in releasing Workbench 3.1. At some point they decided to bundle it with OS4 for emulation, probably as a reason to do a little version bumping, to show "progress".

2. Hyperion has never ever owned the OS. Their OS4 relies on a license to develop it and market it. They even played a legal scheme against Amiga Inc in an effort to "get ahold" of it. That's history though, but represents a kind of recurring behavior, which is interesting in the context of this thread.

3. Cloanto is a company that has spent all the years since Commodore's demise building up a very solid and historically very interesting collection of Amiga Workbench treasures. Amiga Forever is a given thing to own for every true Amigan. Everything is there. And more.

4. Cloanto acquired the copyrights to all versions of Commodore's operating systems for the Amiga. Along with all other Commodore IP, including documentation etc. Hence, Cloanto owns the operating system. For the first time, all versions of Workbench and other historical Amiga gems are gathered under one umbrella, in the hands of a company with a proven track record and who truly appreciates the Amiga for what it was (and still is to many).

5. Hyperion has always been very careful to use the mark "AmigaOS" when marketing their OS4, since they have an exclusive license to use this mark. Always "AmigaOS", never anything else.

6. Cloanto on the other hand, owns the trade mark "Workbench", registered for use to market operating systems (etc).

7. Now Hyperion suddenly releases a product based on the OS they have never ever cared for, the 68k Workbench for Amigas. This is obviously in Cloanto's turf, which Hyperion knows perfectly well. They market it as "the first official update since 20 years", completely ignoring that Cloanto already released official (being the owner) updates. The release is obviously based on some existing, historical (but still unreleased) material that "Olsen" had saved in some archive of his. The kickstart ROM has a "first test release" disclaimer slapped onto it, and one of the key "features" (special recompiling effort had to be taken for this) is the modified copyright text, which now say that it's copyrighted by Hyperion in 2016 (Cloanto, the IP owner, isn't mentioned BTW, which it could have, had intentions been good, given the fact that they took special recompiling action). The Workbench disk isn't even bootable, and the installer puts OS stuff in the fonts directory (or whatever). Obviously not tested, obviously not really customer ready, but hey, how easy can it be when your mission suddenly became to quickly squeeze out a 68k release for Amigas for some strange reason and you don't even have an Amiga yourself?

8. Hyperion, who for 1.5 decades has nurtured and pushed for the "AmigaOS" trade mark (anything else is not "teh reel!!1!"), suddenly changes foot: Now they start using the mark "Workbench" instead! The trade mark owned by Cloanto! Which they of course knows perfectly well! Aside from one single mention of "the Classic Amiga OS" in an headline, all pages on their website exclusively use the (by Cloanto registered) trade mark "Workbench" for marketing purpose. And no "pavlor", they don't use it as a reference to some "Window manager". They use it as a name for the product, for the OS. Even in the webshop. It doesn't get more obvious than this. On every single occurrence, they could have used the mark "AmigaOS" instead (it could have been replaced straight off), and had they followed their own modus operandi for the last 1.5 decades, they would have done just that. And with that they would have stayed clear of Cloanto's registered trademark. But they did the very opposite! On purpose!



Anyone familiar with Hyperion's dark track record and modus operandi, and spent some time meditating over the things mentioned above, should see that this is all about hostility. It's a paint-by-numbers picture. Easy to connect the dots: It's bad intent all over! Which IMHO has been a recurring phenomenon when it comes to Hyperion, so nobody should be surprised. Everyone and everything that comes in contact with Hyperion has been/will be exposed to something similar, sooner or later. I'll be happy to provide a list of all occurrences of this since the millennium shift, if someone ask me to (please do! ).

So, what is the result of this?

Well, things are still unfolding. But as Thomas Richter say: "That this turns out to be a "Hyperion vs. Cloanto" fight is just sad."

Remember how people cheered when OS4 PowerUP was kind of bundled with Amiga Forever's UAE PPC?



Well, one thing this has resulted in, is that what was linked to (OS4.1 FE "Classic") by the "purchase as digital download" in the press releases...

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70180

http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php/news/36-amigaos-4x/166-amigaos-41-final-edition-as-digital-download

...isn't there anymore! A couple of days ago it was though!









Cheers!

Last edited by TRIPOS on 27-Oct-2016 at 12:18 AM.

@TRIPOS

Bah, if they can't work this out, its just going to look sad.
Both companies' claims to develop from 3.1 are kind of threadbare.
And the profit potential isn't that significant.

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@Beans

Quote:

Beans wrote: @TRIPOS Bah, if they can't work this out, its just going to look sad.

But how can you fail to understand that the entire point(!) is to NOT "work it out", but rather the opposite?!

Cloanto's "turf" is in 68k Amiga/Workbench retro and preservation.
-> Hyperion releases a 68k version (despite really being all about "NG" and development)

Cloanto owns the copyright
-> Hyperion explicitly recompiles a kickstart module with the purpose to put their name and current year in the copyright notice.

Cloanto owns the registered trade mark "Workbench"
-> Hyperion explicitly use the Workbench mark for marketing purposes, despite always having used "AmigaOS" for the same purpose before.


Quote:

Both companies' claims to develop from 3.1 are kind of threadbare.

Neither one will develop Workbench 3.1.

Cloanto because they are about retro, and retro is the opposite of development. The 3.X is merely their take on 3.9, with a few components having newer version numbers.

Hyperion because the "further developed" version already exists, that's what they have been doing during the last 1.5 decades. It is called AmigaOS 4.1.8 (or Final Edition).

Neither of them has any resources to do any serious development today. Especially not for a retro platform with vast H/W limitations compared to todays standards. Especially not since the retro crowd per definition doesn't require it, maybe not even want it (depending a bit on what it is).

Quote:

And the profit potential isn't that significant.

"Money"

@TRIPOS

Hyperion sub licensed production of 3.1 ROMs to Amigakit and signed a deal with Individual Computers for them to supply 3.1 and 1.3 ROMs with some of their hardware. I didn't see you complain a few years later when Cloanto got in on the act.

@TRIPOS

Imagine if you used all that time and energy to produce stuff rather than what you are doing now.. :)
You could become a real contributor.

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@klx300r

Yes but will it run on my core i5 processor? Muhahahahahaha

Cat meet pigeons ;)

I jest of course, but as someone who just looks in from time to time and messes with UAE on occasion (have a 1200 with blizzpPPC which may be dead now :( ) it is always interesting.

I just wish any of these updates would work on modern hardware, I'll take ARM as an alternative. Workbench/AmigaOS would probably work much better than Linux does on my RPi 3! But I know that is a controversial topic so forget I said anything.

@TRIPOS

Quote:

The Workbench disk isn't even bootable, and the installer puts OS stuff in the fonts directory (or whatever). Obviously not tested, obviously not really customer ready, but hey, how easy can it be when your mission suddenly became to quickly squeeze out a 68k release for Amigas for some strange reason and you don't even have an Amiga yourself?

Yikes, this is too long to quote in context

To clarify: the problem which you refer to as "you don't even have an Amiga yourself" concerns software testing on a plain 68000 machine, which for various reasons succeeded in delaying my work on the Roadshow TCP/IP stack. Please do not mix this up with the work being done on Workbench/Kickstart.

I stopped using a plain 68000 machine for development work in around 1991 when I paid for a brand new A3000 machine and put my A500+A590 combo in storage. Subsequently, I traded up the A3000 for an A3000T with a 'phase 5' 68040 CPU card, then later moved to an A3000UX with a 'phase 5' 68060 CPU card. The A3000UX has been my development machine ever since. For example, the AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9 update work was done entirely on the A3000UX.

So, in a nutshell, testing on plain 68000 machines becomes difficult if virtually all the Amigas at hand use 68020, 68030, 68040 and 68060 CPUs.

Last edited by olsen on 27-Oct-2016 at 10:41 AM.

@TRIPOS

I've never been able to fathom Cloanto's claim to own anything.
When things went south, all they had was a license to sell their package.
At what point did they acquire the rights to the operating system and from whom?
Was it as legitimate as the way Hyperion got their license (from somebody who probably didn't actually own the rights to the IP in the first place)?

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@Beans

Think along the lines of if say Tulip actually got the entire Commodore software catalog. ;)

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@TRIPOS

"LoadWB" or "Load Workbench" is one of last commands in startup sequence that starts workbench.

What Cloanto think they own is just the desktop.

Amiga OS, contains a lot more, Amiga OS also contains of AmigaDOS, kickstart ROM's, they make clam on rom's but no clam on AmigaDOS.

Or maybe the clam to own the workbench disks, the workbench disks do not contain the source code to the operating system, only one snap shot of compiled hunk binary version of the OS.

Hyperion on the other hand have clam to the Amiga OS 3.1 source code, the same source code that AmigaOS 4.0 pre-release was based on. Amiga Inc sold the source code to Hyperion, its known as buy back agreement.

Cloanto has not done anything with Amiga OS (workbench + AmigaDOS + kickstart), all they have done is sold it as it was, they have acted as distributor of Amiga OS as part of their Amiga Forever package.

If fight out in legal system just end with another settlement where no one wins.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Oct-2016 at 05:15 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Oct-2016 at 05:14 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Oct-2016 at 05:12 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Oct-2016 at 05:03 PM.

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@TRIPOS

They were selling the AmigaOS4.1 Classic edition, now that is outdated, the current version of AmigaOS4.1 Classic is the Final edition. That might explain way the outdated product was removed from there sales site.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Well, the picture is more complex...

There are two main Agreements: Amiga-Hyperion (2009) and Amiga-Cloanto (last 2012)

By 2009 Agreement Hyperion owns "AmigaOS 4" (as separate legal entity) and has exclusive license for the "Software" (source code and object code of OS3.1).

By 2012 Agreement Cloanto owns Amiga IP rights including material rights of the Amiga parties from the 2009 Agreement. This means Cloanto owns the Software (source code and object code of OS3.1), but its use is limited by exclusive licence for Hyperion. However, 2009 Agreement is of no concern for any rights Cloanto gained from Amiga parties before.

Quote:

AmigaOS4.1 Classic edition

No, they sold FE.

Last edited by pavlor on 27-Oct-2016 at 05:28 PM.

@pavlor

Well I guess there is lot inserting things to find here:

https://www.lawinsider.com/clause/conflict

Anyway I'm sure it more interesting see how law in different countries also play a out.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Oct-2016 at 05:59 PM.

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@thread

For all the fuss I don't see any issue at all.

Cloanto's business appears to be selling and supporting Amiga Forever and its components/ROMs. I don't believe they have any intention of actually doing software development. They do a great job with Amiga Forever as many can attest.

Now Hyperion appears to be testing the waters on updating OS 3.1. Awesome. What I would expect is Cloanto to somehow sub-license some future worthy version of 3.1 to distribute with updated Amiga Forever packages.

So what's the big deal? Win-win as far as I'm concerned.

@gregthecanuck

Quote:

For all the fuss I don't see any issue at all. Cloanto's business appears to be selling and supporting Amiga Forever and its components/ROMs. I don't believe they have any intention of actually doing software development. They do a great job with Amiga Forever as many can attest. Now Hyperion appears to be testing the waters on updating OS 3.1. Awesome. What I would expect is Cloanto to somehow sub-license some future worthy version of 3.1 to distribute with updated Amiga Forever packages. So what's the big deal? Win-win as far as I'm concerned.

bingo. i know a few obsessives around here are foaming at the mouth, ready to find evidence of deeply laid conspiracies and evil intentions every time anything even tangentially involves hyperion, but i guess i don't see why there is anything wrong from the perspective of customers. i wish both hyperion and cloanto well. the platform is in excellent hands -- both from the perspective of preserving the past and carrying the amiga forward.

-- eliyahu

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@eliyahu

In excellent hands indeed...

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@gregthecanuck

Quote:

So what's the big deal? Win-win as far as I'm concerned.

Or perhaps lose-lose.

It's all great and wonderful to continue to support the legacy market but neither party in control of the IP has shown any initiative to move things forward.

You can only sell so many emulators and updates for 30 year old operating systems.

@ne_one

I think Hyperion´s market is OS4. Classic OS3 sales may help fund development of the main OS branch.

@pavlor

So?

I will purchase this version if it becomes evident its being developed futher, and not just minor tweaks.
If they channel some/most of the funds to support AOS4, what does it matter if the customer gets a product he enjoys, and find to be an upgrade?

I got Vampire and AOS3.9+BB 1 and 2, so I wont use my creditcard yet, but Im positive to any development of the OS.

Personally I miss proper PDF readers and a updated FinalCalc version. Cant wait for the updated Final Writer.

If Hyperions AOS3 version doesnt see much more development, that will be reflected in sales.

@ all

Whoa guys.

TRIPOS was just about to blow a gasket. Please, give him a chance to finish.

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