@Srtest

Quote:

You are talking about os4 running facebook with oddysey with one core at 1800 MHz (an average speed about 10 years ago) and do it easily in a way that woulf bring a similar pc to its knees, and you take it for granted? you say that on the pc it would be more powerful but how something that does well what it supposed to do can be more powerful? what is the point? well I guess that is exactly the point that you can say Aros is so small but to run that facebook like on the X1k you need that quad pc so what is small about it? perhaps after saying you care about 68k you turn to measure it in pc measurements which means to force your way with brute force to allow something to cope. As far as what "beats" what, I already said that a review has issues concerning the basis of comparison so that automatically brings us to a much more subjective realm where I claim 4.1 doesn't need all that bloat to cope with most tasks in a fluid way, and then it can only benefit in specific tasks with added power and that power can come from the gpu as much as the cpu - just like in the Amiga of old.

you started to campare os4 on your ppc hardware with aros under 68k emulation on the same hardware and complained that it wasnt fast enough for browisong in comparison to your usual owb experience. i siimply tell you why, and that your comparison wasnt adequate. it is not anything complicated or controversial to undserstand. please continue to use owb on os4 for your facebook, by any means, but if you need to discuss it with me, try to find an appropriate excuse that holds water.

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Now about being "small" and "invisible": from one side that is a Linux philosophy i don't share and from the other that doesn't goes with Amiga simplicity.

again it seems to be a habit of you to contradict yourself in one sentence. linux is "small and invisible" but you dont share that philosophy and it "doesnt go with amiga simplicity". so amiga should be "complicated" but linux is "too simple". go figure. there is no way to discuss anything with a person that doesnt seem to stand to or understand their own statements, sorry.

the rest of your post in consequence is again barely comprehensible. what i understand is, that you are accusing us of buying expensive expansions for amigas but not buying even more expensive os4 hardware, and therefore hypcritical? yes i bought an blizzard1260 for equivalent of maybe 500eur at a time it was a state of the art hardware that enabled my productivity applications at the time. i have consequently bought several second hand a1200 and a4000s, with or without accel for about 100-200eur each which all found professional application. but i refuse to throw the multiple amount of money into something that doesnt give me any return, neither practically nor emotionally. you may feel different, but thats my position and i dont need to explain myself to anyone for what i buy or dont buy.

Last edited by wawa on 01-Dec-2016 at 11:14 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 01-Dec-2016 at 11:13 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 01-Dec-2016 at 11:13 PM.

@wawa

Let stop the mud slinging for a sec becuase you read something you didn't like. I told you after my test of Aros that for me it was comparable to 3.1 and not much more and that it is a technical achievement. I am on a word-for-word basis here. You then said that I prefered 4.1 for my own reasons which I then explained why. Then, you went and brought the discussion back to hardware on which you run Aros on and that is after you said you are interested in how it runs on 68k. I didn't browse anything with emulation. I talked about what I get with browsing on 4.1 where you claimed I would get that X10 on the pc and I claimed it doesn't answer anything. You wanted a benchmark? then I told you that on the same machine with 2 cores and FF 50 on Linux it slows down on the same javascript heavy page. That is more of a benchmark than comapring it to an os I would never see again if I could (not Aros) and a hardware I have no use for other than as a console or if I was still at college (which I'm sure I would have managed on Libreoffice), and that both of those make it uncomparable.

It seems to be an issue for you mighty wawa to accept that maybe I talked about something you didn't understand right away. Not because it is so clever as it is more about you always trying to see it from your pov. That is like working on a machine and wanting me to simply understand its code. I understand what is in front of me. Or not.

Relying on what is already there - like relying on the great archive of utilities and added features, that is all together simpler and smaller . It doesn't need anything to make it micro because the place where it resides has plenty more room and that is extremely reasonable. In fact, some would say it always has more room...

I don't have to either. It's a choice I would have preferred not to make. I really also don't have a need for you to tell your purchasing history. No one made you justify your place here. Can you say the same about A1 customers? If you accept it for what it is not only you are one of the few that are not A1 users that do, you are also following a much better sense of using and valuing what we currently have. Just thought I could expand it a little. I don't think that was a mistake.

Last edited by Srtest on 02-Dec-2016 at 01:03 PM.

@Srtest

Quote:

You are talking about os4 running facebook with oddysey with one core at 1800 MHz (an average speed about 10 years ago) and do it easily in a way that would bring a similar pc to its knees, and you take it for granted? you say that on the pc it would be more powerful but how something that does well what it supposed to do can be more powerful? what is the point in getting something that perform great in 30fps to 45? well I guess that is exactly the point that you can say Aros is so small but to run that facebook like on the X1k you need a quad pc so what's small about it? perhaps after saying you care about 68k you turn to measure it in pc measurements which means to force your way with brute force to allow something to cope.

You are a bit confused. With AROS you don't need the latest to achieve that. wawa's point was since AROS can run on both arm and x86 it has the advantage of having a JIT javascript engine. For the record how well does the X5000 run doom3 on AOS4?

iirc this is on an intel atom n270 only using one core. So that would make it a single core 1.6 ghz.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w131/Kalamatee/mesa11-doom3-softpipe_zpsyfmyxd4b.jpg

_________________
Support AROS sponsor a developer.

"AROS is prolly illegal ~ Evert Carton" intentionally quoted out of context for dramatic effect

Guys... please, all this mud slinging does no one any good.

_________________

@terminills

Yes of course I am always confused and you guys have everything clear and make everything even clearer.

I don't know how the X5k performs. There is someone here called tlosm he is a betatester you can ask him as he posted results on facebook of the X5k running doom3 on linux. My guess it runs great if the X1k + HD5870 run Nexuiz quite well on the same os.

Another thing mr clear, comparing running a common browser on a specific os to running a very specific game is a comparison that is not valid. While the way 4.1 runs oddysey with javascript sites is commendable (when its mplayer is very outdated) and without all those optimizations I keep hearing about. Most games are doing multiple optmizations with various patches installed just to get them that few extra fps. I'm pretty sure doom3 on linux or any game other than open sourced ones like SuperTuxCart doesn't use Altivec on the X1k or other Power specific optimizations. SuperTuxCart is another that runs quite well with a 12 years old graphics card on the X1k on linux.

I'm also impressed with the efforts that made oddysey run well on different platforms on aros. You want to put aros over 4.1 because you have your reasons whatever they are. I don't want to do the opposite. I said and I can say it again: to me 4.1 on the X1k is not on the same level. You think that is absurd? great. I hope aros is very useful for you. Variey is important as long as it doesn't hurt a small community's practical efforts and finding a way for all of us is a continued effort on its own. The question is: do you add to the obstacles or are aiding in laying down pavement? this is an "or" issue as you can't do both.

@Yssing

Quote:

Guys... please, all this mud slinging does no one any good.

can you point me to where im slinging any mud?

@Srtest

Quote:

Yes of course I am always confused and you guys have everything clear and make everything even clearer.

an example:

Quote:

to me 4.1 on the X1k is not on the same level.

on the same level like what? like aros 68k under uae emulation on the same machine, you apparently only compared it to and insist to use as reference? of course it is not on the same level. its similar as if we have insisted to compare aros native on a current x64 hardware to os4 running under uae on the same hardware. doesnt it get through to you?

Quote:

Variey is important as long as it doesn't hurt a small community's practical efforts and finding a way for all of us is a continued effort on its own.

variety has pros and contras, but i agree that if there is a way to focuse common efforths rather to practically handicap each other, then it is beneficial. certainly portability is beneficial in order to survive. this is actually the feature of aros. for one it is open, so eavrybody can take advantage of the developments there. also valuable contributions can be placed in aros open repository for preservance, as some os4 devs do. beyond that, most of aros code is platform agnostic. working on it you are contributing to all targets.

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The question is: do you add to the obstacles or are aiding in laying down pavement? this is an "or" issue as you can't do both.

this question can be mutually asked in context of os4. and i have an impression that much more obstacles have been laid there, for which the whole community needs to pay.

that said, again, its fine when people are using and liking os4. the problem is when they look at everything from they perspective, where they assume all others need to have the same opinions and priorities and generally only be tolerated if they serve os4, best case they simply change over and start using os4 instead.

@wawa

I didn't mention anyone by name, for a good reason.

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@Yssing

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for a good reason.

the reason simply being that there is no mud slinging, just a discussion, or at least an attempt on such, am i right?

@Yssing

Quote:

Guys... please, all this mud slinging does no one any good.

Wrong, mud slinging is healthy and therapeutic.

Last edited by kolla on 05-Dec-2016 at 12:00 AM.

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@wawa

You never did anything to which you weren't accountable

@wawa

We can talk about the basic fundamental aspects of aros vs 4.1. I'm more interested in talking about those aspects as a "meeting point" for both Amiga and open source (in the wider term - like I've explained here on the final paragraph and before that as to a certain Amiga spirit (both from a consumer & user's level).

You talk about communication between some parent company and the users and contributers. The old C didn't do that at first while at the very same time created an os in 1.3 that was very community-like in its essence. Only, I think, on 3.1 did it become more of a brand, an in-house thing not just from an ownership level but also from a smoother transition between all of its parts that didn't left much room to openness and inclusion and you know what? it was better. Because it really defined workbench as a place you go to accomplish work and creative goals and having fun while doing them. It defined Amiga to such a level that it not only somewhat took a different road from the hardware, it made the user more in lined for the next stroke of Amiga genius which never came. Instead from my limited perspective we got something just as good - trying to be this normal os with regular updates in 3.5, 3.9 and the boing bags. That was also an important step from a community standpoint as it made room for the "small parts" mentality in which the barebone design will rely on the wealth of utils made by the community. In those years I have already gone to other platforms.

Why did I go though that view of events? because I think 4.1 is the result and is in spirit that smooth level of 3.1 combined with the addition of the small parts community based mentality. I think it is an achievement which I enjoy and which has flaws, just like the original 1.3 and 3.1, that you were not aware of because of those times and the much better support and confidence. 4.1 faults are relevant to this thread where we thrive to talk about open source and Amiga. It has less of that collaborative effort both from a design standpoint (features that are not necessarily a result of needs and the changing of the needs) and from the way its creators are communicating with this community and giving that support and confidence in the immediate future, when you consider the imminent shadow that always lurks over us.

That is where I think aros comes along. Since we began our little chat here I tried to learn more about it and it seems you did capture that Amiga essence of doing something better because of all of its additions, added knowledge and great collaboration. Here, I mean it not to get on your good side this is what I think after going on the websites and viewing the support and portability effort.

Where do I think it is lacking? precisely in what should make it open source. It's a project from developers and it shows. Like I mentioned before, open source is more than letting go of control and inviting everyone to contribute. It's about the basic design doing the same with disregard to your technical expertise and knowledge. This is where 4.1 is just as open if not more because it is very invitational, coming from the old spirit of Amiga. What aros has that is more Amiga than 4.1 is in its collaborative effort... where it is clear some additions are also from the heart of the old Amiga.

Because I use 4.1 on the X1k, even on one core it presents something that comes extremely clear and shows me stuff in the same way the Amiga once showed me and made be a better user which no other platform tried to do (Linux doesn't make you better as a user it lures you into an abyss of geeks where you can get caught for hours and then swear you will never go back). What I got from aros was not on the same level here and we talked about Power and 68k. Perhaps for you the opposite can be said as you never tried 4.1 on the X1k custom machine which I remind you and everyone was given its own version of the os. Aros on emulation also reminded me of Atari and Linux which I'm really not saying as some sort of insult so don't jump here. Maybe in the past we were all purists, however today we can appreciate different hardware and software from back then and the minds of the past came a lot of times from the same "neighborhoods" and schools and just as scummvm allowed me to experience for the very first time what the MT-32 sounded like (which can be done on the 4.1 on the X1k). I could also appreciate a certain mouse flow modern addition to the emulation of 3.1-like os that with jit was very good.

Therefore the question remain how can we combine the spirit as seen on 4.1 on the X1k and hopefully X5k and the essence as seen on aros? That is a thought especially as another piece of the puzzle such as MorphOS isn't available to me. Regarding open sourcing it, it isn't just the sources being made open. It's also this community talking on the same wave in opening them. Emulation is important as long as it provides something better than simply viewing our past and remembering. It needs to offer some kind of a connection to it especially so 4.1 classic can be that for aros as well as aros can do the same for 4.1. Talking in a future sense.

______________

Quote:

its similar as if we have insisted to compare aros native on a current x64 hardware to os4 running under uae

Maybe we should simply take what doesn't belong here out of the equation. This is like talking about nostalgia dressed up as a preference of the classics instead of emulation dressed up as some torch bearer. I'm insisting on doing everything on this computer.

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Quote:

variety has pros and contras, but i agree that if there is a way to focuse common efforths rather to practically handicap each other, then it is beneficial. certainly portability is beneficial in order to survive. this is actually the feature of aros. for one it is open, so eavrybody can take advantage of the developments there. also valuable contributions can be placed in aros open repository for preservance, as some os4 devs do. beyond that, most of aros code is platform agnostic. working on it you are contributing to all targets.

If Amiga in its current form has trouble going "small", aros can do it for the Amiga by having it in Raspberry designs. That said, on itself it can't make it - it won't really change the way people view using an os and collaborating and more as a side show of alternative concepts and fiddling. It needs to send something back in a manner of speaking. Maybe in the way two computers can talk via web and work together. That is just a theory yet sometimes the theory is where you can push a third way for all of us. For that to happen you really need to see what 4.1 brings to the table that can influence those that are exposed to aros and make it more complete.

Quote:

that said, again, its fine when people are using and liking os4. the problem is when they look at everything from they perspective, where they assume all others need to have the same opinions and priorities and generally only be tolerated if they serve os4, best case they simply change over and start using os4 instead

So what if they change over and use 4.1 instead? don't we have the same goals? are we still competing over the same people? how has that approach worked so far?
Aros people can have all sorts of perspectives and it's all fine. When those perspectives become something that goes outside Amiga to adhere and serve other purposes, not only can other needs be made a priority over Amiga's needs (like all retro computing or pushing open source), it can make us say thank god we have our 4.1 and the closed doors mentality of its parent company and that of its platform. Especially when we talk about a platform, delusions and fantasies should better move to the back of the car and we should make way for what is right here in front of us and not turn back from deciding as consumers that want to invest in this world. At a future date it can even transcend the platform when we will have that choice to make if that condition can actually appear. It is like on the X1k, I'm choosing to write to you on FF50 on Lubuntu-LXQt because of various reasons regarding everything I just mentioned while a certain someone, that doesn't need a foreign language or carries feelings towards FF can simply let go of that entire side of the X1k and focus only on the hardcore Amiga. A community can think of all of that and the Amiga is used to being a case of past meets future. An open sourced future can be about bridging both sides.

Last edited by Srtest on 06-Dec-2016 at 03:28 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 06-Dec-2016 at 02:56 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 06-Dec-2016 at 01:27 AM.

@Srtest

no the different camps are not really competing about the same people because everyone has decided here long ago. The only exception is Vampire because "classic" is interesting to most people. Regarding open source versus closed source... of course open source is not a solution for everything but I ask a simple question... what happens if Hyperion would cease to exist? In a small community the foundation (basic components like OS) should be open to guarantee that it still exists in future.

@OlafS25

How does one decides? Do we come into a clear slate computing world and decide? do we ditch a platform and move to another? from a financial perspective it's more relevent.

I don't see it as a competition at all only as 2 things which are combined: not asking questions about the pc plaftorm and just assuming it's better for everyone because of "power" and support, keep comaring A1 to pc and how futile it is. That has been for 2 years straight since I got the X1k and the time I was lurking here and seeing what was up in amigaland. You might say this is not a competition between camps yet when one camp constantly laughs at the other one might say it is like marking a game and its rules and trying to win that game.

Of course classic is interesting, it came from the glory days. I can't think about it and not smile. Right now we are at a present situation when we have pluses and upsides if you just look at them and make them yours.

Lets review a hypothetical situation: what if Commodore collapses? oh, don't worry, a pc company will come and buy it and if that failes another one will buy it from that... oh wait that's not hypothetical at all and the old C was a very big company considering and with a gloried past. Any more than that from my direction is not suitable as I'm not the guy to say what needs or can be open sourced and what shouldn't be without a regard to the ability to open source it.

Last edited by Srtest on 06-Dec-2016 at 06:43 PM.

@OlafS25

Quote:

no the different camps are not really competing about the same people

I thought public strategy of Hyperion was (and still is) to get 68k crowd for OS4.

@pavlor

they try but how many really buy new OS4 hardware?

@pavlor

Quote:

I thought public strategy of Hyperion was (and still is) to get 68k crowd for OS4.

however they failed on this big time, which "naysayers" and "usual suspects" need now to get the credit for. whatever lengthy discussions we will engage here in, it hardly will change anyones attitude.

@wawa

Quote:

however they failed on this big time

I don´t think so. OS4.1FE Classic/WinUAE was big success and Update 1 may introduce some long awaited features for classic users (if rumours are true), which will help to gain even more customers.

@Srtest

I do not see competition because competition means people compare different products and decide to change. From what I was told this is not often the case, f.e. former AOS user dropped amiga when the hardware died instead of to change to MorphOS or AROS. The only exception here might be a possible standalone version of Vampire/Apollo which would direct compete with Tabor (I assume similar price range). Other than that people keep on using what they have. There are of course always exceptions though. The "classic" crowd is not really interested in "NG", they prefer new hardware for their heavy expanded A2000 or A3000/A4000. You might think that is weird but that is hobby (as you buying X1000).

I do not understand why you mention Commodore here... Commodore was a big company with real assets at that time and the amiga market (still) had millions of loyal users. The situation today is very different now, it is finally a small retro community now, we talk about thousands not millions of users now and Hyperion not really has valuable assets. Who do you think would be willing to save AOS if Hyperion would stop to operate (whyever)?

@pavlor

even I own one just for curiosity but I am certainly not a AOS user

buying the OS for a small amount of money is one thing, buying the expensive custom hardware something totally different