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wawa 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 6-Dec-2016 21:37:38
#141 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
I don´t think so. OS4.1FE Classic/WinUAE was big success and Update 1 may introduce some long awaited features for classic users (if rumours are true), which will help to gain even more customers.


if you like to think so.. the only kind of comments i have read from these people after that was, they have bought it out of interest since it seemed to be a sudden last offer discount, tried it out one or two times and put it back on a shelf, to the rest of the collection to gather dust. thats where also my os4 copy probably is.

as comparison, the comments from apollo users are that they are suddenly using their amigas each day again. go figure.

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Plexus 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 7-Dec-2016 0:28:57
#142 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Sep-2003
Posts: 289
From: SWEDEN (Sverige)

@All

I dont want AmigaOS to be open source, I rather think this will rip apart the community even more.
Maybe it can be good in the short run, but in the long run I rather think its important AmigaOS is in safe hands....
Try to bake a good cake with tousands of people involved and everybody change what the cake included all time...



But I also think AmigaOS are in very good hands now.
I can really see that A-eon and Hyperion entertainment have done a very good work with hardwares and software, and all
Third parts developers are not to forget mention.
I really enjoy whats comming out for AmigaNG as a end user.
I Try to live in reallity with my expectations from such a small community we still are...
But offcourse me want more users for the AmigaOS...
But soon we have, na...

_________________
AmigaOne X5000, AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition Update 2 special super 2 cores prepared super edition v75 christmas speciale uniqe quadro prepared AmigaOS... TWO MORE YEARS IS NOTHING IF YOU BEEN WAITING SINCE 1994..

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Srtest 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 7-Dec-2016 3:12:30
#143 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

@OlafS25

Quote:

buying the OS for a small amount of money is one thing, buying the expensive custom hardware something totally different


Congratulations, you marked the difference between a user and a consumer. There is a difference. The only time where there isn't, is when you write from a certain perspective like that of the user vs developer and you can throw there a contributer or a supporter of some kind. When you write from that perspective you can't separate the considerations of the user from that of the consumer. When you actually talk about usage, that's something else. Because usage is varied just like Amiga today is varied. In the old times Amiga was proliferated to publication houses, animators, railway systems etc etc. It reached a lot of places while other places didn't even know it existed because of serious awareness issues. Today that awareness can be about the possibilites of using an updated version of Amiga or an Amiga derivative, and perhaps the main issue is getting to places and having people come and see what they can do and more importantly - how they can do it. That is why I talked in this thread 20 times about the way the giants abuse standards so lesser companies or entire niche markets won't be able to. You just need to read the thread Mr. Olaf. To see how the current Amiga makes you do it your own way you first need to know it will adhere to certain minimal standards. Those place really don't have to be about the pc at all like I also said numerous times. They can emerge form the htpc, console, cheap all-in-ones or smartphones worlds. Of course we don't have the hardware to be players in those worlds (can you even really explain why in the past a console user would switch to a desktop computer and why today that is really unlikely?), but maybe the opporunities are also not there, in part due to the current inability to get all of Amiga's branches working together and realizing each's strength.

______

Quote:

Commodore was a big company... t is finally a small retro community now


You know that saying the bigger they are the harder they fall? Nokia and Motorola were the giants of cellphones just a decade ago. What didn't they have? a good os. A lot of people still think highly of those phones, especially battery-wise. Now lets fast forward and here we have a small company which assets and knowledge can be traced to the origin of the Amiga, the Amiga brand, a community of devotees and fanatics, the ability to produce in small numbers and operate using a skeleton crue that builds on the wealth of contributions and the legacy of free little aids to the os. Lets go way back and there you have the old C trying to stay a float when millions of mainstream users are willing to give it a couple more months before moving to greener pastures and that's also because of the greatness of the machine. Which situation is better? one can get you more profits while the other can protect you from heavy losses.

Quote:

that is hobby (as you buying X1000).


I think what is more plausible - you not thinking that it might be the opposite for me, or you simply not reading this thread where I talked about it repeatedly. The pc here is a games machine, which might have been funny if I hadn't written it time and time again. What does it take to make you simply disregard the X1k as a custom specialised mobo, with a unique cpu manufactured under military standards and is suitable for a warm climate where I live, the ability to use a new gpu which is supported. Add to that the availabilty of both the Amiga and linux ranges, and the possibility of running emulation both on e-uae jit and Petunia on Amiga side and fs-uae on linux. I rather be a crazy Amigan than a sad pc user out of desperation, and again I now bring up the thing where I talk about the playground being contolled by bullies where it is the only place users and developers meet and is also a graveyard for good companies such as 3Dfx, Matrox etc etc, and when you will talk about productivity or something.

Quote:

The only exception here might be a possible standalone version of Vampire/Apollo


That is a comparison of vacancies but maybe you like that. For now what we have is you comparing A1s to pcs, and others comapring vamps to emulation on pcs. That is not a basis for competition. If I feel bad for people that wanted the X1k and couldn't get it and still can't get the X5k that is both a community and the considerations of consumers that can at the end of that sentence justify buying pcs for years. They say competition should make you better - how is that happening? by talking about things that don't exist? You can actually find the positives in the current situation and on that note present them as subjective and not comparabe to positives on a more powerfull hardware and software (according to you). If the same man is baffled when trying to decide which to get - the A1222 or a standalone Vamp, is that a competition between products or a much bigger one between classic and modern? the same man can decide not to play that game and see one from a consumer perspective and the other from a completeness level which is part of the user perspective and wanting to have it both.

Quote:

former AOS user dropped amiga when the hardware died instead of to change to MorphOS or AROS.


So you want someone which lost his classic Amiga to choose between 3 options where one is a Power option that is constantly belated, another where it uses old macs hardware which its parent company doesn't even use anymore and lastly, an Amiga derivative which focues on portability and has its authenticity questioned?
You know how difficult it was to be an Amiga user in Israel when everything was supposedlly great? at least then the old C had an official representitive here, horrible as it was. You didn't have ebay back then and buying overseas wasn't really an option. Maybe today it's not just about Amiga, amazing as it may sound. Maybe your friend just wanted it easier like most people do. It was far easier for me to drop Amiga in 97-98 than to stay (it was actually difficult but that's another story). It was very hard to do everything I can to get that X1k and come back. Where does that leave me? You might feel sorry I didn't view other options, I feel sorry for the way we can't make the split in Amiga work in our favor for once when each manifestation is viewed according to each's strengths and we find ways to cooperate.

Quote:

I do not see competition because competition means people compare different products and decide to change.


I do not see a working classic here next to me that I would want to get a vamp for. You do not also see why I would get a X1k. What change is that? change from classics to moderns? why? classics are great. I'm not even talking about - great for what. Do you ditch one to go to the other? do you sell your plasma tv when you buy a projector? The silent element in this conversation is you always putting the pc as some goal of people where in fact that goal might be consoles. Maybe there is a possible competition between an expensive game console of today vs a cheap amiga-like console of yesterday? I see people buy tvs with that sort of stuff. It actually saves them money from one pov, while a veteran user will say they are throwing money in the long run and that consoles usually last for a long time. My Yamaha reciever is 14 years old (with DD, DTS and DVI) and I can bet it will get to 20. The pc here is 8-9 years old and recently had a gpu change when its gpu was transfered to the X1k. The new gpu makes that pc look as young as an infant, while that better SI gcn 1.0 gpu makes the X1k+AOS4.1FE really take off with just one cpu core and stand on its own 2 feet without needing linux. The point is: are we also talking about a competition in longevity? a competition between complete systems (hardware & software solutions) and different parts and operating systems? from your perspective every little piece of expansion the old Amigas got was a waste of time and resources, especially after C collapsed. Then you can compare the buying of the A4000 to those expansions and again you have competition of system vs parts. That is actually a real world competition of today. You know what? that was an arguement among stereophiles for years if a single reciever is better than dividing it into a a pre-amp, amp, etc. It didn't work so well for those that tried to put the graphics as an onboard solution. It works for the Raspberry. Evidently, you try to look at the place where you would compete and find an expensive system like the X5k going up against value for money, markets, long term planning, a confidence and a support of the giants. You now decide you want your Vamp to compete yet you find it going up against software and emulation (which was an argument against the X1k...), newer internet standards that you don't have any influence over (even if you can technically use the web very well), even against the way the Vamp is made vs the mainsteam methods of production. Suddenly you realise you are actually talking about its value to you and not to to other people. Maybe there is some irony in finding the Vamp on the same road the X1k was on. That's not competition, that is like neighbours saying hello when they pass each other Maybe it's about the realization that the competition is between the street and its inhabitants against cities and regimes, even about the ability to live there.

Last edited by Srtest on 07-Dec-2016 at 03:25 AM.

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Srtest 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 7-Dec-2016 3:24:21
#144 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

@wawa

Well I buy games on gog.com more than I ever bought before - because they have great deals. I bet the movie and dvds companies are scared about that phenomenon. When you present people with the right opportunities and you also make it about their feelings so they will feel they got a lot for their money's worth, they might actually surprise you where before they would have chosen a different route, either more mundane and boring or trying to get it for free. You can say emulation has that dark side and you can also view even that dark side in another way as a way for you to reach those people in the first place.

I hope apollo users will use it even further and that eventually Amiga usage together with everyone who wants to do things differently without obeying the giants and their standards will make it so they will have to be considered. Maybe a specific open sourced os solution can help there... and then not stop there and introduce those users to the world it came from.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 7-Dec-2016 16:41:32
#145 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 762
From: Unknown

There is no reasons why Amiga OS should be open source.

Most of clowns who moan for it, want to make our hobby cheaper, not better.

If aros followers would be smarter in the past and aros will have support for ppc and integration with 68k software we amiga users will be using aros for years.


Last edited by ppcamiga1 on 07-Dec-2016 at 05:02 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 7-Dec-2016 17:16:49
#146 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
aros will have support for ppc


aros supports certain os4 ppc hardware. it simply phased out of the active maintenance due to lack of interest.

Quote:
and integration with 68k software


even better, it actually runs 68k software on 68k. something os4 is not up to. on other platforms it uses emulation, as integrated as it comes, if os4 ran on those it wouldnt be any different.

Quote:
we amiga users will be using aros for years.


im not sure, who you refer to as "we", but i probably do not belong to that category as i actually run aros on an actual amiga hardware.

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kolla 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 7-Dec-2016 18:09:59
#147 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

Most of clowns who moan for it, want to make our hobby cheaper, not better.


Wrong. We want people to be able to work on AmigaOS without without having to risk all kinds of legal nonsense. We clowns have no issues with departing with our money if it means liberating the sources, there are plenty of evidence of that.

Quote:

If aros followers would be smarter in the past and aros will have support for ppc and integration with 68k software we amiga users will be using aros for years.


It's not a competition, it is not a goal for AROS to attract as many grumpy old amiga users as possible, it is more of a goal to attract developers and keep progressing the way the developers want. In that regard, I would say AROS is way ahead of both AmigaOS 3.x and OS4.x.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

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pavlor 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 7-Dec-2016 19:12:49
#148 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
the only kind of comments i have read from these people after that was


I read comments from other people then.

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bison 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 8-Dec-2016 15:16:32
#149 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@Plexus

Quote:
I dont want AmigaOS to be open source, I rather think this will rip apart the community even more.
Maybe it can be good in the short run, but in the long run I rather think its important AmigaOS is in safe hands....

If history teaches us anything, it is that there are no safe hands.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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pavlor 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 8-Dec-2016 15:41:40
#150 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
even better, it actually runs 68k software on 68k. something os4 is not up to. on other platforms it uses emulation, as integrated as it comes, if os4 ran on those it wouldnt be any different.


Lack of real 68k compatibility on the main "x86" AROS branch was one of major hindrances for its adoption by Amiga users. AROS was ever intended as free AmigaOS on modern hardware, 68k is dead-end in this sense. Sure, one can enjoy AROS on Pentium-class hardware, but its real power in comparison to OS4 and MorphOS lies in availability for mainstream computers. HD video, full OpenGL, JavaScript based browser - that are areas where AROS shines, but certainly not on 68k.

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wawa 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 8-Dec-2016 16:26:55
#151 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
Lack of real 68k compatibility on the main "x86" AROS branch was one of major hindrances for its adoption by Amiga users. AROS was ever intended as free AmigaOS on modern hardware, 68k is dead-end in this sense. Sure, one can enjoy AROS on Pentium-class hardware, but its real power in comparison to OS4 and MorphOS lies in availability for mainstream computers. HD video, full OpenGL, JavaScript based browser - that are areas where AROS shines, but certainly not on 68k.


i agree. the same problems would be faced if os4 moved to x86/x68.

what concerns where aros shines, there is still few aros applications that are either usable or close to be usable on amiga hardware. one of them was aros version of owb by szymczyk (it is in contributions). i suspect it might be a good option for vampire.

Last edited by wawa on 08-Dec-2016 at 04:27 PM.

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Plexus 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 8-Dec-2016 22:46:27
#152 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Sep-2003
Posts: 289
From: SWEDEN (Sverige)

@bison

But AmigaOS 4.x have been in Safe Hands for 15 years now and thats pure facts.

Have AmigaOS always evolved like I want it to in my imagineation or what I WANT? offcourse not, not at all.

But in Reality Hyperion Entertainment have done a very good work with AOS4.x so far.
Sometime I have to be realistic in my view of things.
And IM happy with how everything turned out to this date, And still have more to come for future.
I mean even if AmigaOS 4. ultimate special everything people dream of Amiga can have/ should have,
I bet one million dollar that people always found another in AOS4 to complain about...
Some People can never be Happy and wait.

I can Tell you I havent hear everybody happy with windows or linux or for example PS4 pro either.
People look for problems in every aspect and want more, more and more....
Offcourse everybody want more but Open source everything and all will not solve every problems.
If Open source is the only way forward why the heck has not MS or Apple open source their OSes?
Now I am Happy for soon to get a new Amazing X5000 and AmigaOS4.1.

Last edited by Plexus on 08-Dec-2016 at 10:51 PM.
Last edited by Plexus on 08-Dec-2016 at 10:49 PM.

_________________
AmigaOne X5000, AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition Update 2 special super 2 cores prepared super edition v75 christmas speciale uniqe quadro prepared AmigaOS... TWO MORE YEARS IS NOTHING IF YOU BEEN WAITING SINCE 1994..

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Srtest 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 9-Dec-2016 2:07:55
#153 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

@kolla

Yep, Aros is exactly the way the developers want it to be. Maybe that's not the best thing as you would think they would occupy themselves with better developing tools.

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Srtest 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 9-Dec-2016 2:21:55
#154 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

@pavlor

You can't have it all. What's more interesting is when does that Amiga way of doing things start and when does it stop and open source begins? I don't remember the old Amiga being about portability. That is also a choice which carries consequences. I always identified the Power platform with linux and linux with it. Canonical moved linux from the realm of the geeks into the mainstream but at what cost? and linux did had portability from the beginning like unix. I also don't remember the Amiga was against being connected to other platforms in transfer of files, working collectively, etc. The question was what was brought back from that connectedness.

If if look at the present, Amiga is not an important enough brand to be considered for projects that try to connect different platforms like those which are cloud or server based. However, different smaller solutions (hardware + software) might be just that and the Amiga can go small. The question therefore remains: it's quite possible that Aros is Amiga's ambassador but what does it bring back from those worlds it inahbits back to ours? say you like the Power platform, the X1k, the Sams, the newer X5k, the Vamp, AOS4.1FE, compositing and radeonhd (which linux has dropped). Do I get something back without moving to other places replacing the one place I inhibit and plan to stay in? Does Aros devices like the raspberry and pc platfomrs benefit in turn something from it? where does one ends and the other begins?

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bison 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 10-Dec-2016 16:45:39
#155 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@Plexus

Quote:
But AmigaOS 4.x have been in Safe Hands for 15 years now and thats pure facts.

Well, no, that's your opinion! To which of course you are entitled, but... I personally have much less confidence in Hyperion. It's hard to have confidence in a company that doesn't communicate with its customers.

This is the main reason I have been hesitant to buy an NG Amiga. I think A-EON is doing a great job. Hyperion, much less so. I don't want to end up with an overpriced Linux box.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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paolone 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 10-Dec-2016 19:06:07
#156 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

Open sourcing AmigaOS? Yes. It would have been a great idea. In 1997 or so.

Last edited by paolone on 10-Dec-2016 at 07:07 PM.

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ne_one 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 11-Dec-2016 23:01:28
#157 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@Plexus

Quote:
But AmigaOS 4.x have been in Safe Hands for 15 years now and thats pure facts.


Fact? If the yardstick is the ability to maintain the Amiga museum, they're doing a stellar job.

In a decade very little progress has been made and the continued emphasis on extending a hopelessly dated OS on a dead processor is becoming more and more of a liability.

It's not a question of lack of patience, being difficult to please or whether or not the this is perceived to be a hobbyist market.

Nothing. Is. Being. Done.

How is that safe?

Quote:
Open source everything and all will not solve every problems


No one is making that claim or maintaining that open-sourcing the OS is the best strategy.

But in the absence of any forward movement, the community is taking initiatives and they're proving to be both invigorating and feasible.

Opening up even part of the OS development could be beneficial.

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paolone 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 12-Dec-2016 9:47:05
#158 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

I'd like to be a little more verbose on this matter.

Having AmigaOS open sourced would have been a smart move in the late 90s, in order to speed up the development and increase number of supported platforms, however being open woud have suddendly required some tasks

First of all, reviewing the sources in search of protected IPs that were licensed to Commodore, Amiga Inc and successors to complete the OS or offer some functionalities owners didn't want to open as well. Remove then, and replace them with fresh new code, which is, by the way, what the AROS team did with the WHOLE operating system, instead of parts of it ---> it would have required much less effort, time and brain power to do.

Then, opening sources would have meant people allowed to do whatever they like with sources. There are too much "me too" kind-of people among the amigans and I am sure many forks would have risen in the latest 20 years. However, what scares most Amigans (fragmenting) is one of the most powerful weapons of open source software: the best implementation survives, the weakest ones die. It require some time for selection but, in the end, users would have decided the faith of every change.

This would have allowed something current solutions don't have: evolution.

Evolution means that the open sourced AmigaOS would have had no reason to keep compatibility and original structure at any cost, because applications would have required re-compile on every platform to work natively (as AROS needs) and emulation for the rest. And even on 68K and PPCs new solutions might have been developed to go ahead, allowing virtualization, multi-processing multi-core support, and with a larger community joining the same effort, development of missing driver (or porting from othe platforms) would have gotten a dramatic speedup. Incidentally, this is exacly what AROS missed, to shine.

What do we have now, instead? Three operating systems freakily trying to not break this or that, in order to let 30 years old software run natively or transparently emulated with no issue. Frankly speaking, it's like sending emails through pigeons, tieing a usb pendrive to their leg.

Evolution, by the way, is one of the most sensible topics in Amigaland. This anachronistic effort to change everything in order to change nothing (habits in particular) is exactly what's stopping all developers (Hyperion, MOS team, AROS team) to go ahead, to look for new roads. And that's also why we are starving, while other platforms flourish every year.

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OlafS25 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 12-Dec-2016 10:17:09
#159 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@paolone

to become "modern" any of our OSs would need revolution not evolution now, it would necessarily mean to break compatibility and thus software would need to be adapted, not supported software would stop working. AROS needs recompiling anyway and most sources are available but for AmigaOS and MorphOS this will be a problem. Whom do you think will write new software for it? Developer today develop for mainstream platforms or smartphones today, most certainly never heard of Amiga in their lifes. The big jump should have happened many years ago at a time when much more users and developers were active, now it is too late for that. It is a retro platform today. I see no problem there because you can have a successful retro platform today but retro finally means 68k, not X86, not ARM and not PPC. I know that some people disagree (f.e. you), we will see who is right. Finally software decides about usuability of a platform, so we will see for which platform most software will be developed.

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paolone 
Re: Open Source
Posted on 12-Dec-2016 10:53:28
#160 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

That's not really different to what I mean. Opening AmigaOS sources would have been a smart move 20 years ago. Now there's no chance to recoup all this lost time. We're kinda stuck in this niche and we will never get outside of it. Sad but true.

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