@Kronos

Quote:

OpenSourced x86-AmigaOS-thread. Must be monday again.

I sure looks like it. :)

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Computer says No!


Computer says no

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zids: "sorry for ranting, I just would love to buy a AmigaONE some day but can't justify the high cost for the new hardware to be able to run a OS that I love but slipps further behind."

What can you justify buying? this may seem like an "everything" sort of argument or an upside down one, yet from 20 years on those other platforms I as a major user can't justify a lot of what i spent my money on, or the casual "regular" user will justify their 2-3 years worth of hardware purchasing as - my kid made me buy it. On that level, the consumer strategy I got from the Amiga world from back then did made something I don't even need to justify: on those other platforms it was all about value for money and on the Amiga (before that) it was about an investment in fun. How has that changed? When you buy a car you are on that very same axis. When you buy a stereo system if you like listening to music and watching movies in high fidelity that same logic applies. Why buying a computer system is so different? I'll tell you why - because that entire market is made up of monopolies and things being uninteresting and staying in the very same place while it is perceived as diversified, varied and with lots of options. That is until you bring up consoles, handhelds, smartphones and tablets with all sorf of processors and operating systems and suddently you actually need to justify to yourself what have I been doing all these years. At least with me I'm honest about what the pc is for (gaming) because that is where those titles are. All of that might not be a plausible explanation from a buisness standpoint yet from a user stanpoint and also a consumer it is as sensible as using those other "platforms" for 20 years. Now that is a rant

fishy_fis: "Yeah, 'cos rehashing the same sorts of performance available 10 years ago, for thousands of euro (ppc) is much less stale than a platform that continues to move forward, increase performance, reduce power consumption, has the industries leading fab process, etc, etc. Has best support within source code, and so on. "
How is that platform moving forward? what is their great accomplishment? moving away from the cpu to other chips? I thought that always was an Amiga accomplishment.
And then. as they move away towards the gpu (which AOS4 did as well) suddenly it again becomes all about great and powerfull cpus. Why? to drive that bottleneck of a system and to help Wintel (which failed misrebally for years to produce a valid onboard graphics option). Have you ever been online to the AmigaOne's youtube channels? because I have one myself and what I can do with one core operating at 1800 mhz is what those other platforms need a quad operating at 3000 mhz to do. I guess you measure advancement in mhz and cores while I in that old school computer related thing called efficiancy.
When you talk about support you cling to that very lousy concept by which you can be a mean bully and ruin things for everybody but because you control the playground everyone will still play on your turf. That is called DirectX, but guess what? OpenGL and smartphones and Linux and streamers have changed that. And on that subject of moving to a new technology, why is it that the masses are moving to slower processors on tiny screens? or simple classic Amiga way of booting games on a big screen? I guess they also have a different concept of advancement.

* It is actually tuesday here.

Edit:

Small language stuff.

Last edited by Srtest on 22-Nov-2016 at 03:34 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 22-Nov-2016 at 01:51 PM.

@Daedalus

Quote:

Perhaps, but everyone's x86 hardware is different. Even if it were ported to x86, the amount of work involved writing drivers etc. means that it most likely would only work on a particular chipset, and while that will be far cheaper than PPC hardware, it will most likely only be available for a few months before it's replaced and needs updated drivers. So hardware availability-wise it's only a short term fix. See the AROS x86 support notes for example.

Well actually the evil corporation did a lot of work in pushing everyone to go through its protocols so if everything uses the same standards (even Creative EAX is gone) does it really matters what operates it? I mean it seems to me AOS4 went through a very similar process with its abstraction layer. I everything is created to go through a certain protocol or standard then how different can it really be? maybe just regarding the volume of work needed.

Quote:

True, but again that negates the main advantage posted, which was almost everyone already having suitable hardware in their homes.

You're talking about that AMD graphics card? pulled it out of the pc, waited for Hans, then put it in the X1k, waited for AOS4.1FE, and happy times since then (well, except on the Linux side but that's another subject). The rest of that pc? need it for games. You can also say the same thing of every next-gen console that is out there. So what actually makes it even a computer nowadays if all the kids are on consoles and tablets? what does that says about compatibility and having support for many years? because buying a PS4 in a lot of ways is like buying a X1k.

@WolfpackN64

Quote:

It's not as much a problem of architecture (since the PPC chips aren't really that more expensive as x86 ones (with the exception of the PA Semi chips since Apple screwed over A-EON there)) and more a problem of volume. Larger volume = lower price. If you make a custom motherboard for a few hundred to a few thousand people, it will cost you a lot regardless of architecture, unless you opt for 5-20$ ARM chips.

What you describe here can be applied not only to all similar markets it is even a historical context on its own: for young people today production is an out of sight out of mind concept unless they need to work in that specific field. However, you see on new markets where the evil corporation failed miserably and where Google relied on open sourced Linux to gain a foothold in spite of having unbelievable resources to develop its own os and apps (and self-driving cars apparently). So not only it is not an equation of money = sales because you go through a bunch of third parties, that third party in itself is part of Amiga nowadays like "borrowing" stuff from the Linux world. It's okay everybody does it, yet the thing is about knowing what to take and not to take both directly and via a cultural perspective (knowing who you are - which was the formula that other slimy corp called Apple used to lure people). A teacher of mine on my BA once said to us that to beat such huge corp that has entire markets in its grasp requiers all of us. This means it is not only Amiga but companies like Mozilla. Not surprising that when Google could have destroyed that evil corp's browser, they chose instead to destroy Firefox with their market reach and proved they are also part of what's wrong with the computing world.

@Severin
Quote:

Not all of us, I have no x86 hardware, a few old 68030/G4/G5 macs, Sam Flex amd an X-1000. Personally I hate windows in all it's incarnations and laptops too. Loonix isn't much better but apple and android have forced loonix on the world.

Well Severin, I'm not a big fan of Linux myself while acknowledging it plays a key role in enabling peripheral computing and approaches to computing in a complementary manner. On the X1k it is very important for that whole experience that also includes a native language, Mozilla and Libreoffice (in my situation).

@bison

Quote:

Yes, but... on the other hand... that would have diminished the dramatic tragedy that is Amiga. It would be like Romeo and Juliet getting married and living happily ever after. We'd all have to find something else to wax nostalgic about.

Now you're talking about those pc guys on EAB who treats Amiga as nostalgia throwback and wants to subjugate all of us to their whims. Lucky no one cares about those guys.

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:

would keep people engaged in the Amiga community until the classics could be updated and made competitive again

I don't think being competitive means what you think it means. I guess for some having a new Roadshow on 3.9 is being competitive. I think they are called EAB and maybe they mean a competition with the guys from the Dosbox forums.

* Almost Wednesday here. Maybe things go faster where it is still warm in November.

@Srtest

I'm not the most active guy on EAB, but admittedly they run more software than anyone on this forum. Most of it is games, but it is software nonetheless. For productivity, AROS would wipe the floor with AmigaOS 3 and keep pace with AmigaOS 4 but nobody wants to write high-end productivity software on a game system that has a keyboard and disk drive thrown in as an afterthought.

eab seems to be the most active and overall competent amiga forum, besides a1k. i think they retain rather balanced atttitude towards what amiga is good for, along with a necessary prise of sentiment, but usually without deluding themselves too much.

worth recognition, i suppose. ;)

@Srtest

Quote:

Srtest wrote: Well actually the evil corporation did a lot of work in pushing everyone to go through its protocols so if everything uses the same standards (even Creative EAX is gone) does it really matters what operates it? I mean it seems to me AOS4 went through a very similar process with its abstraction layer. I everything is created to go through a certain protocol or standard then how different can it really be? maybe just regarding the volume of work needed.

Which evil corporation? Microsoft? Hardware extraction is a good thing in the modern world, but you still need drivers to get the most out of your hardware. OS4 has hardware extraction that lets the OS run on differing hardware, but that extraction layer needs to be specially written for each different motherboard, just like it does for Windows.

Quote:

You're talking about that AMD graphics card?

Ummm, nope. Talking about extended support motherboards.

Quote:

You can also say the same thing of every next-gen console that is out there. So what actually makes it even a computer nowadays if all the kids are on consoles and tablets? what does that says about compatibility and having support for many years? because buying a PS4 in a lot of ways is like buying a X1k.

Yeah, kinda true I guess. But it works for consoles because the people licencing the software (Sony in this example) also control the hardware and will guarantee the software will run on a PS4 bought in 2013 and a PS4 bought in 2020. Same thing for tablets. You can't guarantee that your OS, written for a motherboard you have no control over in 2013, will work on a motherboard in 2015, even if it's from the same manufacturer, without software changes. The original 2013 one might not be on sale any more, and the updated version, while supported by new Windows drivers from the manufacturer and a new Linux kernel from the community, will need updates that may never come for AmigaOS.

_________________
RobTheNerd.com | InstallerGen | SMBMounter | Atoms-X

@Daedalus

Daedalus wrote:
Quote:

Which evil corporation? Microsoft? Hardware extraction is a good thing in the modern world, but you still need drivers to get the most out of your hardware. OS4 has hardware extraction that lets the OS run on differing hardware, but that extraction layer needs to be specially written for each different motherboard, just like it does for Windows.

It's been what(?) four or five YEARS since the X1K hit the streets, and when did the A1-XE become available?

Not even a driver for a simple serial port. What the hell did they put slots on the boards for? Even window$ supports standard serial ports. Even the classics had a full serial port.

We all know what the problem is......."THE" developer is busy. Any wonder why people stay with the classics or just wander off?

Sad, very sad.

_________________
Tinkering with computers.

@Signal

Quote:

It's been what(?) four or five YEARS since the X1K hit the streets, and when did the A1-XE become available? Not even a driver for a simple serial port. What the hell did they put slots on the boards for? Even window$ supports standard serial ports. Even the classics had a full serial port.

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. The universal serial port driver supports all NG machines from the A1-SE/XE, µA1, Pegasos II, all the Sams, the X-1000, X-5000 and even the A-1222. It was first released back in 2012.

_________________
cheers
tony

Hyperion Support Forum: http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:

I'm not the most active guy on EAB, but admittedly they run more software than anyone on this forum. Most of it is games, but it is software nonetheless. For productivity, AROS would wipe the floor with AmigaOS 3 and keep pace with AmigaOS 4 but nobody wants to write high-end productivity software on a game system that has a keyboard and disk drive thrown in as an afterthought.

Well I run even more software and games on JIT E-UAE and Petunia on X1k, and whatever the results are and if they are satisfactory I won't try to force anyone to either use it that way because it is the most common approach to old school hardware/software (like PCs and Dosbox), or try to stir the gentle Amiga boat so I will have an old school Paula + AGA card in the X1k which in fact I would love to have. Of course that also includes me not opening a forum when I talk about my only valid way of doing Amiga (all generations) and try to hurt intentionally a new way of constructing Amigas and supporting it because I'm actually a pc guy and couldn't care less if it doesn't exist.
Nobody also wants to write productivity software for the PS4 or the Xone yet they sell millions and millions of units. That is exactly why the discussion where you mix everything: markets, technology, making paths to casual users, power and ultimately advancement, doesn't get us anywhere and it is done by people with an agenda. Like i said on the A1200 reloaded and Vamp postings - I wish everybody success and not just so it will appear as I support those projects as a X1k user myself. I tend to actually listen and not what guys like wawa perceive as listening. For whatever reason being a PowerBE user on the A1-X1000 and Linux haven't made me negative towards the old school people yet when I came here 2 years ago that was all I witnessed.

@wawa

Quote:

eab seems to be the most active and overall competent amiga forum, besides a1k. i think they retain rather balanced atttitude towards what amiga is good for, along with a necessary prise of sentiment, but usually without deluding themselves too much. worth recognition, i suppose. ;)

If balanced means laughing with all their heart at the current Amiga project of very good Power platforms which are a joint investment in Amiga by users and funders alike, then that's fine and that is balanced in this world I guess. Be those nostalgic you must be kidding me people who actually think their pc and stupid os on it make for good computing when every serious operation like Nasa, schools, railway systems and armies check for solutions other than Wintel. The fact that those very people try to hurt our efforts of the last decade and then play dumb and admire their latest workbench.library 39.15648416748712 which is that final optimization to AOS3.9 to beat all the other geeks, is obvious as their day-to-day use of PCs and everything on it. So do I as a gamer, yet I don't pretend I'm some kind of a genuine Amigan where everything else like an optimization to 30 years old hardware is a joke. It is not laughable because old school hardware and software were brilliant and if you present a kind of super-retro machine under the Amiga umbrella then why not and hope it works out. One of us will play BOH and watch 1080P on an Amiga and the other will have a super-cool days of old Amiga. sounds like lots of fun for everyone and not everything online is about Java and Clips. That A.L.I.C.E? for people with families who have only 30 minutes a day and really miss their Amiga games? why not!
That might be quite a good advice for you as well - This Srtest guy says he has lots of fun on his X1000? why not! maybe that is a very plausible thing and he actually enjoys his time. He says he can do everything between AOS4.1FE and Lubuntu LXQt? I'm skeptical but perhaps there is another way.
You see? it doesn't have to be a zero sum game which is very non-Amiga like and is celebrated on that forum.

@Daedalus

Quote:

1. Which evil corporation? Microsoft? Hardware extraction is a good thing in the modern world, but you still need drivers to get the most out of your hardware. OS4 has hardware extraction that lets the OS run on differing hardware, but that extraction layer needs to be specially written for each different motherboard, just like it does for Windows. 2. Ummm, nope. Talking about extended support motherboards. 3. Yeah, kinda true I guess. But it works for consoles because the people licencing the software (Sony in this example) also control the hardware and will guarantee the software will run on a PS4 bought in 2013 and a PS4 bought in 2020. Same thing for tablets. You can't guarantee that your OS, written for a motherboard you have no control over in 2013, will work on a motherboard in 2015, even if it's from the same manufacturer, without software changes. The original 2013 one might not be on sale any more, and the updated version, while supported by new Windows drivers from the manufacturer and a new Linux kernel from the community, will need updates that may never come for AmigaOS.

1. You can refer to it directly I prefer to have my fun... which is based on real life as you know. What is a motherboard this day? who cares? 15 years ago I looked and studied the market for that one Gigabyte motherboard that would grant me that edge and for what? most of it was hype and that was when motherboards mattered when a whole pc world emerged following Commodore, Atari and the old IBM demise. Nowadays the pc is scattered between streamers, tablets, Raspberries, Add-on tv cards, watches and so on and so forth. What unites it are the standards and where Amiga lacks is not on standards, because Amiga is not part of that party but on leading the portability effort and being a pioneer in portability where once it was considered a platform's pride to have specific software. The markets drive everything so if Bethesda needs to write the next Elder Scrolls for pc, consoles and watches they will do it and the driver writers will do it and that Kronos group with their Vulkan will be in line to provide the api. This seems like a very user-centric view but I'm only pointing this out so we will see the difference is simply in funds and volume of work * people working on it. Just like everything here.

2. Again, extended motherboard support is not this level playing field where every little piece of hardware needs to be supported. It used to be such a big deal on the pc with sound drivers - do you support EAX? and EAX2? A3D (Aurall)? DS3D? DolbyDigitalLive? I remember the nForce board which had that DDlive feature. Now it all goes through the gpu even sound! So even though it appears to have support it really doesn't because the protocol/standard isn't there anymore. On the pc here there is a Auzentech sound card which uses a driver put together by a user/developer named "daniel k" on the Creative forums. They could care less about support in newer windows and Auzentech is no more. While the graphics driver is as bloated as it can be and has those 1001 features.

3. Commodore also tried to control the Amiga with software + hardware. It was the norm and didn't work so well. What it didn't try to control even when it had that polish war veteran as head chief is the market - it couldn't. It was an emerging market full of innovation. Consoles today control the market yet between the Xbox, PS4 and Wii you have much more variation than on the x86 pc world. Even the last gen PS3 was much more special than the current kind of generic one (which they are now offering an upgrade). Even stereo systems companies behave nowadays like they sell computers and keep changing the isos - DD, DTS, DTS-HD. It is a market driven concept where not so long ago if a technology in receivers was perceived as a step forward like DD and DTS then it was there for the foreseeable future. Support? are you kidding me? you buy your midrange Yamaha receiver and it works great for years supporting DD, DTS and DVI. Google can guarantee support for Android because of its market share not because it controls the software+hardware. Because it is almost impossible to dethrone them.

* Officially Wednesday here. Well, here is a relative term seeing as Amiga is an X-territory.

Last edited by Srtest on 23-Nov-2016 at 12:15 AM.
Last edited by Srtest on 22-Nov-2016 at 11:57 PM.

@Srtest
quite a wall of thest there, hard to climb admittedly ;)

are you complaining, that they dont take aeon and x1k as serious as you? well, there is certainly different people with different views, some a bit violent verbally, others pretty critical not only towards ppc, as example recalling vampire/apollo debates. well, but if its not the neighbourhood you enjoy, then simply stay away, i for my part am going there from time to time for some sensible discussion, especially, some authorities hang out there almost exclusively.

what does that hurt if they have windows, mac or linux pcs for day to day use and refractor and optimise some amiga libs to their best knowledge? how does that differ to use linux on your x1k instead of os4, except that is is more expensive, more limited and slower than on current x86 hardware?

Last edited by wawa on 23-Nov-2016 at 01:31 AM.

@zidz

Quote:

I just think sometimes what AmigaOS could have been today if it was released as Open Source a while ago. I mean, it's a hard competition with the existing widely used OS's like Linux and MacOSX.

I'm not convinced that the yardstick should ever be whether or not AmigaOS is competitive, but open-sourcing or collaborating on 3.1 development would be beneficial to Cloanto and the user base.

Right now, the Amiga is going through a mini resurgence and the FPGA solutions and replacement motherboards should lead to more OS licenses and more platform awareness.

Cloanto doesn't appear to be interested in OS development... so why not open it up and let the AROS work towards optimizing emulation and providing native support on other platforms?

@wawa

Quote:

how does that differ to use linux on your x1k instead of os4, except that is is more expensive, more limited and slower than on current x86 hardware?

And of course, the irony is that Amiga users will embrace anything that is ported from other platforms without question.

@Signal

Quote:

Sad, very sad.

Yeah, posts like this make me sad.

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X1000|II/G4|440ep|2000/060|2000/040|1000

Yet another post about open sourcing AmigaOS - check
Yet another post about how expensive the hardware is - check
Yet another post about how far behind AmigaOS is - check
Yet another post about how toxic the Amiga forums are nowadays - check
Yet another post about the futility of using an Amiga the year 20xx - check

Seriously guys, don't you ever get fed up? Whats wrong with just having fun for a change?

_________________
Amiga Forum - Sweden's best Amiga Magazine

My MorphOS Blog

"Free speech includes other peoples right to offend you."

@Srtest

After reading your mass of text twice, I still can't really tell what point you're trying to make, whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, or just plain missing the point. I suspect the latter. On the one hand you're saying that computers are all these different platforms now, but on the other you're saying that doesn't matter because you can do the same stuff on all of them. While that might be true, you still seem to be ignoring the magical extraction layer that has to be written or modified for every new piece of hardware. Just look at the Linux kernel changelogs for the past year as an example of what sort of work needs to be done. Filter it down to just x86 or x64 support if you like.

_________________
RobTheNerd.com | InstallerGen | SMBMounter | Atoms-X

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:

For productivity, AROS would wipe the floor with AmigaOS 3 and keep pace with AmigaOS

More once o1i finishes the winuae port and hopefully updates the the latest version. :)



http://o1i.blogspot.de/

_________________
Support AROS sponsor a developer.

"AROS is prolly illegal ~ Evert Carton" intentionally quoted out of context for dramatic effect

@wawa


Quote:

quite a wall of thest there, hard to climb admittedly ;) are you complaining, that they dont take aeon and x1k as serious as you? well, there is certainly different people with different views, some a bit violent verbally, others pretty critical not only towards ppc, as example recalling vampire/apollo debates. well, but if its not the neighbourhood you enjoy, then simply stay away, i for my part am going there from time to time for some sensible discussion, especially, some authorities hang out there almost exclusively. what does that hurt if they have windows, mac or linux pcs for day to day use and refractor and optimise some amiga libs to their best knowledge? how does that differ to use linux on your x1k instead of os4, except that is is more expensive, more limited and slower than on current x86 hardware?

No i'm not complaining about them as they don't interest me. Like I said (and like you keep ignoring it), they want to be those guys that do the only relevant remaining part of Amiga called Amiga emulation on pc and Linux - be my guest. I find it pathetic but really it is more boring for me than anything. It is only when they try like on other forums to do their best to derail current Amiga initiatives by using not only the current situation (lack of market to lower prices) against those initiatives, they also use the classic Amiga background and the magic we all remember to shove it in the face of people who consistently do very good things for this community which other platforms would be lucky to have. Behind their pc and their fondness of that platform they wave Jay Miner's brilliance in the face of every developer and user who dare to use and develop on current PowerBE platform and invest in it. There are so many places you can be pc fanboys and do your little nostalgia community (much like Dosbox and ScummVM) why here? why to derail us? because they can and because people and even powers that be cater to them and because a lack of a market make you do things and of course those guys on eab know all about it.
Why is Linux on the X1k more expensive? I bought it because of Amiga not because of Linux. The various Linux distros play an important role in complementing this community limited effort and resources. You of course know that and that everybody in the world, forces whicea re much much more powerful than our little community go through everything that is available there and pick and choose what suits them. You see - it is the completely opposite from owning a pc and running AOS classic because here Linux is a present necessary situation while you try to move forward on the Amiga side, while on that pc the end goal is Wintel and we all know it. Then why not go right now? why stay here? it is like you yourself say: lower prices, abundance of hardware, a modern os, maximum support, great emulation much more advanced than e-uae, why stay here? you can always just hang like tagging along with a group or a band. If this is a heavy metal group you want to play on a piano - go play on a piano. Why the masses move to slower hardware and tiny screens and Android? why not big screens and quad cores at 4 ghz and R9-480X? because they have been there and done that and moved on to better things IN THEIR MINDS. If mighty Google needs Linux then people expect Amiga to be the pope? to be "pure" in order of being legit? Linux is everyone and open source so how is that like using a pc? because you keep coming up with those hypocritical arguments and spins, while the rest of us are the real deal of Amiga. The old Amiga was based on Europe and parts of the states while current Amiga needs to go global and the larger support on Linux, especially language support, is part of a broader strategy and perspective that also tries to learn from past limitations that didn't stem from the hardware or software of Amiga (which were better than the c64 with a smaller market share than c64). Moving to x86 is repeating the falsehood of people that are waiting to go Amiga but don't because of limited hardware and outdated software.


@no_one

Quote:

Right now, the Amiga is going through a mini resurgence and the FPGA solutions and replacement motherboards should lead to more OS licenses and more platform awareness. Cloanto doesn't appear to be interested in OS development... so why not open it up and let the AROS work towards optimizing emulation and providing native support on other platforms?

How is it that when the X1000 came it wasn't a "resurgence" (good thing you didn't say renaissance) yet when the fpga breathe some fresh air into 30 years old hardware it is such a big deal? isn't this about your so called competition? and your entire argument is based on the division of windows from Intel when in fact almost everything that happened reflected both being monopolies in their markets using one to drive the other (like I explained from a hardware and software perspectives), while AmigaOS can do very nice things with one core on 1800 MHz and can only benefit from added power. A lot like Android where people are headed from their uber-powerful machine and os. Why is it so important for Aros to be the choice of Amiga emulation? what is the end goal here? I always thought emulation is about staying connected to that gloried past without living in it. Isn't Aros based on 3.1? you talk about competition you wish to create another inner-Amiga competition between a revamped 3.1 and 4.1 because of your feelings towards Hyperion and stretching our resources thin yet again.

Quote:

And of course, the irony is that Amiga users will embrace anything that is ported from other platforms without question.

No, what is sad is that when uber-corporations use open source standards like OpenGL to control markets you place your finger on Amigans who want to use their advantages and move the platform to be an epitome of portability where it has the only chance to attract users by providing a wider range of software. This is exactly what I witnessed when I saw Mac Power users talk about an Amiga X5k as a next potential platform following the compatibility issues with the power-macs, that we don't have the range of Linux. You do want what's best for us, don't you? And given as Linux moves more and more to the mainstream and looks to appeal to the masses maybe it won't be open source forever so it might as well reside on the platform that had open source before the world had open source. Using Linux alongside Amiga makes sense in an open source and collaborative world that should be presented in portable software (as it is not all about experiences it is also about the greater good).

@Yasu

Quote:

Seriously guys, don't you ever get fed up? Whats wrong with just having fun for a change?

Well I for one am pro-fun. The thing is you sometimes need to defend your fun from those willing to have their fun at your expense.

@Daedalus

Quote:

After reading your mass of text twice, I still can't really tell what point you're trying to make, whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, or just plain missing the point. I suspect the latter. On the one hand you're saying that computers are all these different platforms now, but on the other you're saying that doesn't matter because you can do the same stuff on all of them. While that might be true, you still seem to be ignoring the magical extraction layer that has to be written or modified for every new piece of hardware. Just look at the Linux kernel changelogs for the past year as an example of what sort of work needs to be done. Filter it down to just x86 or x64 support if you like.

To make myself even more clear (...) I have to go back both historically and to having those intangibles like developing under certain conditions and working through them:
Back then, the world of computing was as level a playing field as you can get. It was so level that even if you had that amazing idea and implementation, the market was so scattered with all the different technologies between Amiga, Atari, Mac, pc and consoles, that developing anything not just drivers was very hard even for big companies like Sierra so their ports suffered because of it (as we on Amiga land know). Now, that maybe the situation that exist in the Amiga land of today as well between AOS - old and new, MorphOS and Aros, and it is a very important discussion we need to have about Amiga's culture (that we are not in the right place or time to have). When you go out to the world what matters is the resources you have to direct the market and everything is aligned by it. You say I do not understand the concept of hardware extraction but what are drivers that do not need to support a bunch of standards? is writing for GLIDE, OpenGL, DirectX and more isn't even more complicated? so now one group is all about one protocol and another uses the open source protocol and all the sound protocols like EAX and A3D and DDLive are finished because of economic interests and I can't hear a single developer say anything about it. They might be all under the hood working on those drivers yet if the giant companied need Vulkan to sell graphics cards and games - it will appear, not the other way around. On a level playing field of funds and market share those issues might come up. You said about Linux I can just refer to x86 and X64 but the recent drop of Power Big Endian goes to show you that Linux is kind of the windows world of geeks that goes where the demand is and the powers of that world navigate those developments in a very similar fashion to a completely commercial world. On Aros you need to write specific drivers for that motherboard and who knows if you will be here to support it further. If you are at the right spot inside those situations I mentioned they will tell you the standards will work it out - like 2D now goes through 3D Mesa because that is the way graphics card are built to lower their cost on the pc world and it doesn't matter if older ones had 2D chips on them. much like that extraction layer you have layers upon layers and backends like in the case of Vaapi and Vdpau where it is complicated and then the community wants something "light" and "free" and then you come to the conclusion that if it works and given that those concepts come from AMD and Nvidia, who cares about "light" or "free"? That logic is derived from the market not from the complexity of what is under the hood (that is part of a world of options) which might present opportunities for future developments. The old Amiga had great "under the hood" hardware yet eventually being so specific and custom and controlled, "fed" it to the general market with their compatibles. Now you have protocols that are expanded and expanded (like OpenGL) that make special processors like the Cell obsolete even if they are more advanced. That is the assurance of future support nowadays even if you use about 30% of the last generation abilities.

@terminills

Quote:

Quote: For productivity, AROS would wipe the floor with AmigaOS 3 and keep pace with AmigaOS

Quote:

More once o1i finishes the winuae port and hopefully updates the the latest version. :)

Why would you want to do that? what does it give you as an Amigan? who cares what happens on the pc? why do I need new software on an emulation of old software? I thought you do all this hardware projects like Aros machines precisely not to go that route of an Amiga as a virtual machine and presence. I guess that works for nostalgia. I prefer the present.

Edit:

Added a little something about a global Amiga and Linux.

Last edited by Srtest on 24-Nov-2016 at 12:33 AM.
Last edited by Srtest on 23-Nov-2016 at 11:41 PM.

@tonyw

C'mon Tony. Quoting myself Quote:

What the hell did they put slots on the boards for?

The Serial ports on the X1000 are Rx Tx only. Poor excuse for external expansion.
The point is,,,, aaaaAAAAaak, what's the point?

_________________
Tinkering with computers.

ohje..