@Srtest

Quote:

How is it that when the X1000 came it wasn't a "resurgence" (good thing you didn't say renaissance) yet when the fpga breathe some fresh air into 30 years old hardware it is such a big deal?

It's the market that determines demand and clearly the X1000 was either unattainable or not compelling for many members of the community - or a combination of both.

Quote:

isn't this about your so called competition? and your entire argument is based on the division of windows from Intel when in fact almost everything that happened reflected both being monopolies

No, nowhere did I reference either technology, monopolies or tinfoil hat conspiracies.

Quote:

you talk about competition you wish to create another inner-Amiga competition between a revamped 3.1 and 4.1 because of your feelings towards Hyperion and stretching our resources thin yet again.

No, competition implies fighting over the same resources. Hyperion develops 4.x as a closed system using its own resources.

Quote:

No, what is sad is that when uber-corporations use open source standards like OpenGL to control markets you place your finger on Amigans who want to use their advantages and move the platform to be an epitome of portability where it has the only chance to attract users by providing a wider range of software.

Argh... really?

There has never been a vast movement that has prevented the Amiga from flourishing. If you want to really understand why this platform has struggled, consider the people who have determined its destiny.

@Daedalus

Quote:

While that might be true, you still seem to be ignoring the magical extraction layer that has to be written or modified for every new piece of hardware. Just look at the Linux kernel changelogs for the past year as an example of what sort of work needs to be done. Filter it down to just x86 or x64 support if you like.

Which is based on a decision to support a vast array of devices.

If you want to run AmigaOS or A.L.I.C.E, you can buy a box from A-EON that is certified to work with it. Different software, different hardware, same A-EON.

It doesn't matter whether it's 68k, ARM, PPC, x86 or any other processor - if you develop the product, you decide what features it includes.

@srtest

Your posts are quite funny.
Thanks for the laughs.

Seriously though guy, you have a very narrow view. There's plenty of fun to be had on any computer, be it a pc, an old Amiga, a "modern" (chortle) ppc Amiga, whatever...
Your perspective is full of contradictions, and seemingly you lack a lot of knowledge about things you have opinions about.
The x1000 that you tout as fun,.... sans CPU, basically a PC.
Who do you think created PCI and PCI express? Intel did. Even ram is defined by those evil corporations you like to waffle about.
The only thing that is unique to an x1000 is the OS. And there's an Amiga based os for x86 PCs as well. Runs natively on bare hardware, just like os4 does on the x1000.

You ask me about how x86 evolves. Heck, in the very post I mention this I give examples. Manufacturing processes, speed, power consumption, heat generated, busses, ram speed, and so on.
These are the ways all computers evolve. Its what defines them, how they work.
This is why your "fun" machine is more capable than the things you decry (like FPGA based amigas).
At least x86 based systems continue to evolve. PPC ceased to do so about a decade ago.

And these so called "evil corporations",.... without standardizations it simply wouldn't be possible for machines to have reached the point they're at without them. Heck, even things like x1000 or x5000 wouldn't exist.

You seem to have all sorts of opinions based on a lack of knowledge and understanding, and narrow experiences.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 24-Nov-2016 at 07:45 AM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 24-Nov-2016 at 07:44 AM.

@ne_one

Quote:

ne_one wrote: Which is based on a decision to support a vast array of devices. If you want to run AmigaOS or A.L.I.C.E, you can buy a box from A-EON that is certified to work with it. Different software, different hardware, same A-EON. It doesn't matter whether it's 68k, ARM, PPC, x86 or any other processor - if you develop the product, you decide what features it includes.

Exactly. The problem comes when you use a mass produced hardware platform you don't control, for example x86. You buy a motherboard, develop all the HAL and driver software needed, then release it... Only to find that the motherboard you developed for isn't available any more so nobody can buy it. Make some tweaks to some driver code and it works on the newer model of that board, but then that disappears too after 6 months.

One work-around for that (and how we handled it in my last company in which we developed medical diagnostic automation) was to buy hundreds of the components in advance and store the ready-built machines in a warehouse for the next 10 years. Not a big deal for a company with a budget of millions and warehouse space to spare and a practically guaranteed market, but who would take that sort of risk on the Amiga market?

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@wawa

You seem to be tired. So am I. Let us skip it this time and simplify it to one question divided to 2 parts:

A. Why are people moving to slower processors on tiny smartphones which are of course much less powerfull than current pcs and how are the standards for graphics and sound play a part in that transition of people and markets?

B. When is it about a market that decides those things and when is it about software and hardware? how is the pc world a better place for Amiga given what Daedalus says about compatibility and what is known about those who direct markets? what hardware and software on Amiga will bring new people and lure others back and on what evidence do you base your views? Amiga back then had ingenuity, a respectable market share (all things considered) and mass appeal (value for money) but it also had a way of producing that ingenuity with regards to day-to-day usage. What is that place nowadays?

* answer whatever you like

@ne_one

Quote:

Quote: How is it that when the X1000 came it wasn't a "resurgence" (good thing you didn't say renaissance) yet when the fpga breathe some fresh air into 30 years old hardware it is such a big deal? ______________ It's the market that determines demand and clearly the X1000 was either unattainable or not compelling for many members of the community - or a combination of both.

______________

I thougt the X1k were all sold and are unavailabe. Who bought them? Non-market people? How attainable was a A4k? you know how much it cost my family to buy an A4k? 4000 Shekels (without shipment!) in the early nineties (don't remember exactly I'm sorry) which if you take currency changes into considerarion this means about what I payed for the X1k (without shipping which was like taking a bullet...). Of course I already had a graphics card, however that is a choice of a lot of users today.

Quote:

Quote: isn't this about your so called competition? and your entire argument is based on the division of windows from Intel when in fact almost everything that happened reflected both being monopolies ______________ No, nowhere did I reference either technology, monopolies or tinfoil hat conspiracies.

______________

That is exactly my point yet my finger isn't pointed at you but the bad and sad discussion where everything is mixed to suit one agenda over the other and everyone loses. A conspiracy means a combination of fantasy and a special kind of mix between powers, funds and using a situation while meeting in secret rooms. All I said is documented in trials those companies had and their attempt to control entire markets (even states but that is another discussion) is a known fact. Their mediocre hardware and software produced in a period of 30 years is another fact.

Quote:

Quote: you talk about competition you wish to create another inner-Amiga competition between a revamped 3.1 and 4.1 because of your feelings towards Hyperion and stretching our resources thin yet again. ______________ No, competition implies fighting over the same resources. Hyperion develops 4.x as a closed system using its own resources.

______________

I thought Hyperion is a combination between contracted workers, spare time workers and contributers. A competition can be created indirectly by applying zero sum game rules when one takes from the other. Wanting a revamped 3.1 to operate at the same spot of 4.1 is in fact creating a competition on the hearts of current Amiga users (who are already split between past and present just like myself) and the availablity of those special Amiga-community additions of great utils such as Eastern. We all know it isn't about expanding the playing field. I for one like 4.1. Just thought I'd mention it.

Quote:

Quote: No, what is sad is that when uber-corporations use open source standards like OpenGL to control markets you place your finger on Amigans who want to use their advantages and move the platform to be an epitome of portability where it has the only chance to attract users by providing a wider range of software. ______________ Argh... really? There has never been a vast movement that has prevented the Amiga from flourishing. If you want to really understand why this platform has struggled, consider the people who have determined its destiny.

______________

You seem to be confused between vast movements and market movements. Of course adopting the USB standard (for example) didn't cause the Amiga to lose users other than its inability to incorporate that standard connection at the right time. Newsflash - Intel also failed in a similar way with Thunderbolt and onboard graphics and a bunch more yet they were never at the risk of losing their platform, and lets not talk about the other part of Wintel and its ridiculus failures that on any other market would lead to its closing. Maybe for a few moments of illusion when AMD and VIA were in the game. Vast movements needed the Amiga to adapt and it couldn't. Market movements crushed Commodore, and after its demise ran havoc in an uncontrollable (...) and small Amiga situation and market.
In order of avoiding that fate again, one needs to understand what happens outside the Amiga world and what are our advantages beyond fighting for scraps the giants with their generous heart, leave us.

@fishy_fis

I am pleased you are having a laugh. As I said I'm pro-fun. So much indeed that as a motivational force it incurs movements from where there isn't any fun (according to one's preference) to where you can find it (or it finds you). That is exactly what happened for me that made me go away from x86 (beside games...) and come here to the PowerBE A1-X1k. If your fun is elsewhere then by all means.

I'm sorry I lack the knowledge you think I should have. My knowledge comes from reading an interview with Dave Haynie where he said he had all these cool Amiga projects on the shelf waiting to be given form while watching what happened outside and knowing that the moment he was able to do it he would support a new universal standard such as the USB. You can check it out you are a fact-based serious person. Is USB pc? is DD? DTS? OpenGL? is PCI better than Zorro? is Zorro better than PCI? is that even the question or the fact that from a historical perspective the great availability of emerging technologies used that bus/connection? or was the entire Amiga supposed to compete with Matrox, 3DFX, Nvidia and ATI instead of seeing a compromise so it would either be a pc or an Amiga!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Instead, you can look at various technologies and see how their brilliant solutions suffered the same market-based fate as Amiga: Matrox with its brilliant IQ (no one cared about that right? only FPS), 3DFX who insisted on their own protocol to utilise its own thecnology and ATI who had a concept of a slim driver before the merger with another company that got crushed by a market because of an optimization to its rival's stagnant cpu. Likewise, the custom chipset approach was as controlled as could be and as pure Amiga as could be. Yet even then there were people who belate AGA and long for that lost dream of AAA because one didn't save us all and the other was supposed to. How did ne_one said it? "really"? simply take a look at all of those companies and their sophisticated 3D hardware and software (and all their drivers).

Quote:

This is why your "fun" machine is more capable than the things you decry (like FPGA based amigas).

Of course that is a lie but don't let that stop you. Not once have I said anything negative about the FPGA projects other than simply saying what they are based on. That is what you constantly do with your PowerBE rants, no? that and a few negative supplements... I mean... I've been here for a week from a 2 year period on the A1-X1000 on other forums, how negative can I be? perhaps in time.
For example: The X5k is the new popular kid on the block. Will I get it? no. Do I wish others to get it? of course. Is it about both being PowerBE? no it isn't and I'm not scared of losing support. If I use a pc for PES and Underrail they can use it for Youtube (although I hope the FPGA matures to such a level it can run 720P). Why? because of conditions non of us have any control over. You stating imaginary facts about an alternate timeline where Amiga on x86 is flourishing and back to its former glory, is an illussion of control to create a state of fantasy. I wish the Amiga to create a state of fantasy and maybe that is also the FPGA - I don't know. [/quote]

Quote:

without standardizations it simply wouldn't be possible for machines to have reached the point they're at without them.

Neither you or me get to decide that and the fact of the matter is that some people do and those don't have computers, developers and users on their minds like the Amiga greats of old did. Instead of that there is a Dollar sign. That is why even if they use open source standards (that were created as a free pool of information and implementaion) to control markets and thus making it very difficult to small companies and start-ups to keep up, you rather look to those standartizations even it they don't benefit us one bit. That is why a developer like Hans writes his own specific protocols and doesn't simply use what is available because of that present connection between what was free and now costs quite a lot if you are small and full of ideas. Even if Lyle wants to implement DDlive on AOS to provide us with an edge in sound (over handhelds, smartphones, consoles and more), he can't because it doesn't exist anymore because the money is in graphics cards (and even there we try to tag along and reach for that permit to use an open source driver - well, that is a contradicion).

@Daedalus

Well man, commodore tried to do exactly that but the changing of times from companies control over a prettly level playing field to market control via standards on a non-level playing field - crushed their controlled approach, and you were left with non-expanded chips waiting for a saviour while trying to upgrade a platform that provided such opportunities as a secondary priority (and rightly so considering its great chips). Sadly, I do not think you can let go of control because of what you said about losing compatiblity in a short period of time. The question is - what do you control? maybe you have a better concept of it than I. Makes sense. Nonetheless, I still think what you call motherboards in today mass consumer market of home solutions is scattered between everything I keep mentioning.

@All

If you bear with me, lets imagine the gaming market for a second and take yet another step back: in the late nineties you had Blackisle and Interplay who did some amazing work and produced some unforgettable titles which affected fans. Tthose fans created groups of fanatics where they demanded a similar and serious and creative approach to gaming. Then came the giants over the last 2 decades and did those hollywood type dumbed-down games (even in the FPS genre) that adhered to consoles and were aimed at them. That is all nice and sweet yet what happens when the masses get that "been there done that" approach to games that are like nuts and bolts from a factory? Suddenly Bethesda buys the Interplay assets and use Fallout and Eidos buys the geeky and wonderful Deus Ex and makes it a franchise. So now those fanatic groups are all of a sudden right? are right about what can be popular? what is good? or is it all so cynical.

Hope you managed to plow through my jungle of text. Given that it is the first time in a 2 year period I guess you will live. Why not? and also prosper. Longevity is relative.

Edit:

Grammer stuff

Last edited by Srtest on 24-Nov-2016 at 07:56 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 24-Nov-2016 at 07:55 PM.

@Srtest
Quote:

@terminills Quote: Quote: For productivity, AROS would wipe the floor with AmigaOS 3 and keep pace with AmigaOS Quote: More once o1i finishes the winuae port and hopefully updates the the latest version. :) Why would you want to do that? what does it give you as an Amigan? who cares what happens on the pc? why do I need new software on an emulation of old software? I thought you do all this hardware projects like Aros machines precisely not to go that route of an Amiga as a virtual machine and presence. I guess that works for nostalgia. I prefer the present.

AROS 64 Bit on a PC suits me fine. I prefer to sandbox everything else. ;)

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@Srtest

"Moments of illusion"?
AMD owned the X86 market when the P4 was current.
Dumbest piece of crap Intel produced since the Pentium Pro.

Yeah, VIA has always been kind of irrelevant, except that they produced Socket 7 processors that outperformed Intel's (and I later upgraded 200 Mhz Pentium systems to 450 MHz AMD K6-III processors that performed frighteningly better).

And while I do have an i7 based system, I also have an FX-8300 based system that performs really well in threaded applications.

Without alternatives, you can count on Intel sitting on its ass an not innovating.
Its just a given.

Last edited by Beans on 24-Nov-2016 at 10:22 PM.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Beans

Quote:

Without alternatives, you can count on Intel sitting on its ass an not innovating.

Intel's R&D expenditures were $12.1 billion in 2015, $11.5 billion in 2014 and $10.6 billion in 2013. And that's while they have owned the market. And you forgot most important thing which is basic economics. If they don't improve their products enough, there is no reason for existing customers to upgrade.

@Rose

There hasn't been a significant reason to upgrade for some time, if the benchmarks on the socket775 I have modified to run a Xeon processor are any indication.

Frankly, the improvement from Core2 to current cpus is pretty underwhelming.

But we're locked into this anyway.

I've said this before, and I still think its valid, after the shift from X86 to X64, then the need to go multi-core (because 10 GHz P4s were just so much horseshit), nothing really interesting has happened.

And the 64bit extensions were called AMD64 for a reason.
That is who invented them.

Last edited by Beans on 24-Nov-2016 at 11:52 PM.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Beans

It's not only raw performance where has been advancement. Power effiency has been major thing. 10 years ago there wasnt SMALL laptops with 12-18h battery life.

http://www.techspot.com/article/1039-ten-years-intel-cpu-compared/

Pretty good article about last 10 years of x86. When you easily double performance and cut power consumption to 1/3 I wouldn't say that there is no innovation.

Quote:

And the 64bit extensions were called AMD64 for a reason.

And there is also reason why it's nowdays called more often x64. Last time AMD had really competitive products was over 10 years ago. After that it went to "Also ran" and to "AMD - When you can't afford better" bargain bin products what they have now. I'm REALLY hoping that their Zen that is supposed to come out in January will be solid product. Otherwise it looks like in 2-3 years there won't be AMD as we know it anymore.

PS. It's also worth of noting that your Xeon costed probably about 4x the price of your i7 when it was current product.

Last edited by Rose on 25-Nov-2016 at 12:37 AM.

@Daedalus

Quote:

One work-around for that (and how we handled it in my last company in which we developed medical diagnostic automation) was to buy hundreds of the components in advance and store the ready-built machines in a warehouse for the next 10 years. Not a big deal for a company with a budget of millions and warehouse space to spare and a practically guaranteed market, but who would take that sort of risk on the Amiga market?

There is no shortage of companies out there that will supply technology on-demand that conforms to specifications. The cost of implementing drivers is nominal compared to the time, expense and risk of creating proprietary hardware for a niche market.

Either way, no matter which CPU architecture you employ, virtualization has made much of this a non-issue.

duplicate

Last edited by ne_one on 25-Nov-2016 at 01:58 AM.

@Srtest

Quote:

I thought Hyperion is a combination between contracted workers, spare time workers and contributers. A competition can be created indirectly by applying zero sum game rules when one takes from the other.

If Hyperion is relying on people working on contract and contributing in their spare time then perhaps they should sell their interest in the OS to a party with more resources and vision.

We're seeing a lot of forward movement in this community from virtually every angle except the OS.

Posting boot screen videos and joining social media outlets in 2016 does not make it time for a group hug.

@terminills

You know, guys like you always use that argument in the spirit of "damned if you do damned if you don't":

You want to be a pure Amiga and not put pci when it is available or because intel saw its production, or, you're not creating the next AAAAAAAAAAAA savior - you're a failure! you failed us and prevented us from moving to greener pastures!

You want to adhere both to universally accepted standards and to the direction of the market and 3rd party companies (non-Amiga) that operate there - you're not an Amigan! This is a PEESEE!

So I won't be like you guys and I will not, under any circumstances point out that you will never have something that captures the magic of Amiga or does anything the pc on which you run Aros can't already do so you're simply left out. No, I wish you loads of fun and productivity on your little pond of possibilities. Who knows? perhaps with 3D printers you'll be able to print a road and a vehicle and find your way back where we do Amiga in your head as well as on the lake

@Beans

It's not just about Amd and Via as I recall another low cost and green cpu that showed a lot of promise and then disappeared. It had kinda a long name but I can't remember.
Anyway, If one simple optimization tipped the scales completely in a market that is a duopoly then I can't really blame Amd as it is more like a casino. I also can't blame them for their supposed technological success when that optimization made them irrelevant as Via. You can say that market is so sold out and practically non-existent when it spawns a gpu market that is bloated on its own and focused again on 2 players at most. Amd didn't impress me at all since the purchase of Ati when in the open source arena they somewhat redeemed themselves.
Then there is also the matter that when I read about a setup like yours and compare it to my 8 years old quad pc and 2 years old X1k I see we are not talking about the same level financially even if I invested all those funds in the X1k because in my case that setup almost killed me.

@Rose

It is quite possible although I'm not a market analyst, that it costs more to control a market so you don't have competition and people continue to consume your mediocrity, than to actually use those resources to invent and reinvent. I guess I do my own analysis based on what brings us to where we haven't been before.

@ne_one

Quote:

Either way, no matter which CPU architecture you employ, virtualization has made much of this a non-issue.

That is one great point and I really hope we on Amiga will have enough resources to invest in x86 x64 virtualization so not a single human being who see himself or herself part of this community will be left out and especially of the fun that are emulation and greater usability without abandoning who you are.

Maybe I need to say it again - I like 4.1. It has that consistent feel to it and that is saying a lot when we talk about the Amiga classics (which are called classics for a reason). Maybe there is credit to be given because of that and of course also to be wasted. I'm not in that position so I really can't say all those things about direction and features. I do still wish to be able to use everything I bought with the X1k. That edge you crave is also important.

Last edited by Srtest on 25-Nov-2016 at 02:47 AM.

@Srtest

Maybe you should reread some Dave Haynie interviews...

Quote:

See, there’s this misconception about C=/Amiga engineering and standards. We LOVED to use standards – any standard – as long as they did not suck. So you see all these proprietary buses and such around the Amiga, and figure, these guys hate standards. Not at all. We liked the good ones. PCI was a very good one, even then.

Please explain to me what makes AOS4.x/PPC so wonderful? I prefer technical reasons not emotional. ;D

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@Srtest

Quote:

You know, guys like you always use that argument in the spirit of "damned if you do damned if you don't":

there is two ways:
1) either try to technologically catch up with the current standards which means

a) to accept what hardware architecture and extensions is mot common, most suited and easy to implement for your needs (x64, arm ..)

b) and find software solutions in the driver area as well as userland within the kimited human and intellectual resources there are, which obviously relies on open sources and therefore increasingly on big endian architecture, see above.

2) go the legacy and sentiment route and try to build up and improve on whats available there, in agreement with limits it imposes on you.

you can take some road in between, as os4 has chosen, but it doesnt make much sense, because you dont get neither of what makes both of the above choices attractive. in short its a foul compromise which results in the very situation you are confronted with now. undecided tiptopping course on the edge between the contradictory and mutual exclusive policies, drawning the current from the scene and finally leading to stagnation.

Last edited by wawa on 25-Nov-2016 at 04:15 AM.

@Srtest

What the heck are you talking about?
What PowerBE rants? I never mentioned anything of the sort.
What alternate reality where Amiga on x86 is flourishing? Again I never said such a thing.

Also, what the heck are you talking about in regards to AROS? You do get that it runs on "Amiga" systems, both ppc and 68k too right?

Its as Amiga as any of the other options (options that use pretty much the same hardware as an x86 PC).

Also, what "protocols" to you think Hans is writing? You do understand that writing a driver requires a person to adhere to certain standards right? The way the hardware is defined requires it.

You seem very confused.

@Rose

The power draw difference between my FX-8300 and my i7 is about 50 watts.
Frankly I save far more money by not buying conventional light bulbs.
In fact, the power draw argument, when my water heater draws over 3000 watts, my electric stove draws about the same AND I have an electric clothes dryer is pretty assinine.
And what was your argument about the Xeon processor again? That Intel overpriced it?
It still does not resolve the fact that the current processor lineup is only a modest improvement over the Core2 line, explain why 64 bit computing and OS' were delayed by Intel's footdragging over the shift to the AMD64 ISA, why I would want to greatly overpay for Intel hardware or why I would want to see the funds earned from my purchase squandered on research that profits me at best minimally.
You can be a cheerleader for Intel all you want.
I've never been that impressed with them.

I still want that 10GHz Pentium 4 they promised me, and if I want real power effeciency, I'll buy ARM.

Last edited by Beans on 25-Nov-2016 at 07:26 AM.

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Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Beans

%200+ percent and greater is a pretty decent difference between a core2 and a modern CPU. And using less power. Current (how old is your i7) Intel CPUs are very power efficient, given their performance.

@Srtest

Applied Micro was developing an interesting offshoot of their PPC line a few years back that used an unconventional transistor technology they had licensed when Apple bought the company that the patents were licensed from and squashed that.
So the lose of PA Semi's PPC designs at Apple's hands didn't surprise me.
And other RISC designs still have some promise.
While not seeing significant current investment MIPS processors have some advantages.
SUN line of processors struggles on in proprietary and open forms.
IBM has opened up Power core licensing.

CISC has always had more than a few disadvantages.
There's a reason that AMD cores actually translate CISC instructions to RISC.

And I haven't forgotten that in the early days it took an Intel or Zilog processor clocked four times higher to equal a Motorola 8 bit cpu.

There have been a multitude of alternatives squashed by this marketplace reduction.
And none of it has brought us improved pricing.

Screw Intel.

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