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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 13-Apr-2017 23:07:53
#81 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1185
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD

The book "Who Moved the Stone" is not a great book, nor is it even a good book. It is a badly written collection of lies and apologetics from a man who lied about his own background. He claims to have been a sceptic yet as quickly as chapter one of his book he wrote "For the person of Jesus Christ Himself, however, I had a deep and even reverent regard. He seemed to me an almost legendary figure of purity and noble manhood. A coarse word with regard to Him, or the taking of His name lightly, stung me to the quick". Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, sunshine, but from personal experience I can assure you that such language is not the province of a sceptic. To Albert Ross it was beyond doubt that every detail in them was accurate in every detail. He starts from the assumption that if the Gospels say X happened, then X happened and that is all there is to it. His fawning adoration of the gospels is such that every inconsistency is taken as further proof of its consistency, and every demonstrable inaccuracy is proof positive that it is perfectly accurate.
You just can't lose with this level of dishonesty in Christian apologetics. If something seems true, then that is evidence that it is true. If something seems false, then that is even stronger evidence that it is true, for who would say things which are easily shown to be false? Ross writes in Chapter 14, "Its very defects as a legend are the strongest proof of its actuality." These are the words of a theist pretending to be sceptical about the book that he holds as the core of his being. In other words a lying hypocrite.
Which coincidentally is the subject of the two verses that precede the one you cited
Matthew 7
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Your book of fairytales is entirely evidence-free, and has never been successfully subjected to peer review by other religions and yet you choose to denigrate science that is entirely evidence led and has been checked and critiqued by scientists who needed to be convinced of its accuracy. Until you understand what peer review is and how it works you will never be a scientist, regardless of how big a student loan you saddle yourself with or how many exams you take.

I do not "love to study" weird cults and sects, I just know that they exist, and that there is no evidence of any difference between all of the other weird cults and sects and your preferred weird cult or sect. That is why I asked what evidence you could present that would show some difference between your made up invisible magic skyfairy and the 26 alphabetically arranged invisible magic skyfairies in my little list.

When you look at scientific research and emotionally associate a handful of cells in a petrie dish with a living, breathing human being and demand the ending of all scientific progress, I see a living, breathing child called Charlie Gard currently in a Great Ormond Street hospital, whose parents have been prohibited by a judge from seeking treatment for a mitochondrial disease. A child who will shortly die because some theist thinks that prayer will be more beneficial to that child than trying to save its life. And there I was, thinking that British judges could no longer sentence children to death. I wonder if he put that silly little square of black cloth on top of his horsehair wig before condemning Charlie to death? You are no better than a Jehovah's Witless insisting that a child die for want of a blood transfusion simply because some bronze age goat-herder didn't like black pudding.

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 13-Apr-2017 23:52:07
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4150
From: UK

@Nimrod

Quote:
demand the ending of all scientific progress


No comment, your reasoning (and reading skills) suck and you don't deserve a response to such a lack of comprehension and basic manners at understanding where I am coming from! I don't respect the intellect you're failing to demonstrate and you seem to lack basic common sense. You seem very smug and self serving and I certainly don't see any reason for your tirade other than some Cathedral steward got on the wrong side of you one day. Nothing to do with me and you're not my baggage I'm afraid.

Happy Easter!

Get over the fact that not everyone is as callous as you and some people still value human life especially those who are most vulnerable and unprotected in our law i.e. the unborn. Not everyone agrees with what you have to say, but what is certain is the unborn don't have a voice which is the reason for this thread.

I hope you can bring yourself to accept that news shouldn't just be about what sized bomb Donald Trump has authorised or what dress Scarlett Johansson wore at the Oscars because important issues like this one get drowned out and you are simply demonstrating the voice of apathy and that of a modern day Pontius Pilate.

Have a hot cross bun and stop being irrate. Most importantly spare a thought that God still cares about every aborted baby and every incinerated embryo even if you really couldn't care less in your sickening self righteous way.

Last edited by BigD on 13-Apr-2017 at 11:55 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 14-Apr-2017 13:42:01
#83 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1185
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD
Why don't you go back to school and learn to read It was not "some Cathedral steward" who "got on the wrong side of me" as you so childishly put it, it was the fact that the two bible readings in a Christmas carol service were directly contradicting each other. In fact every detail of the Nativity account of Matthew's gospel contradicts every aspect of the nativity story in Luke's gospel. The genealogies for Jesus are entirely different right down to the fact that Joseph apparently has two fathers. The time periods for the stories are more than a decade apart, and while Matthews myth has Jesus fleeing to Egypt as a refugee never daring to return, Luke's legend has him triumphantly paraded around the city like some kind of sporting trophy receiving praise and adulation at every turn, returning to Jerusalem every year for a holiday, and even winning debates against senior Rabbis even before his Bar-Mitzvah.

Unlike you, I have always valued human life, ALL human life, not just the tiny portion of the human race that is a follower of my own religion, or even just my own denomination of that religion. Did you know that despite peoples opinion Islam is not the religion that is directly responsible for the deaths of the most people. In fact Islam comes a poor second in terms of genocidal death-lust to Christianity. And I am talking about people who have actually been born, not just tiny clusters of cells that the bible refers to as a woman's "thigh"when discussing aborting a child that may or may not be the product of infidelity whether they are in the uterus, or these days in a petrie dish. I even care about Charlie Gest, dying of a mitochondrial disease and being prevented from being taken to America for one last attempt to save his life. The money has been raised to send him to America (with full life support) so it will not be an unwanted drain on the NHS, but still a judge has decided that it will be in Charlie's best interest if he is just left to die. And you want more children like Charlie to be born so that they can die as toddlers of a disease that can be eradicated by use of human ingenuity. So much for "Suffer the little children!"

If your imaginary friend cared about every aborted embryo, why does the bible give instructions to priests to administer an abortifactant drink to women as a test for fidelity? And the only one being sickeningly self righteous is the fascist who demands that his religion is imposed on ALL Amiga fans, regardless of whether their preference is for classic Amigas, MorphOS, AROS or AOS4.x, or even a combination of those. After all it was YOU who decided to open this discussion in a Computer enthusiast website.

Both Easter and Christmas were appropriated by Christians from older religions, and if a follower of any religion offers me their best wishes I will accept their best wishes in the spirit that they were offered. However when a fascist seeks to impose his unproven assertions on me or use the fairytales in their book as a reason to obstruct scientific advancement then I will oppose them every step of the way by whatever means necessary, be that evidence based statements of inescapable fact or even mockery. What I will never do is "get angry" because I know that religions, and your religion in particular are dying of old age and senile decay as younger people see the ongoing benefits of secularism and real knowledge. Did you know that no Atheist ever launched a war against other Atheists because the didn't worship a different deity than was worshipped by themselves. Childhood mutilations (circumcision and FGM) are entirely faith based, and no Atheist ever flew a hijacked aircraft into tall buildings.

“Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.”_ Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great

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Thorham 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 14-Apr-2017 16:38:17
#84 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Mar-2014
Posts: 183
From: Unknown

@Nimrod

Why do you care so much about what some religious person on the internet thinks? They're not going to change their mind because of you, me, or anyone else on this board. Don't waste your time, and just let it be.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 15-Apr-2017 14:46:33
#85 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1185
From: Untied Kingdom

@Thorham

I know that closed minded theofascsts cannot be persuaded to change their minds, but they must still be resisted. If you give ground to theocrats in even the smallest respect you set the precedent to continue retreating until we end up back in the situation of "The Dark Ages" when thinking for yourself or challenging the authority of the church was a burning offence. It is important to resist and mock people who strive to close down reasoned logical debate by using their imaginary friend as a nuclear option. For many years there have been heated arguments between supporters of the various flavours of Amiga, but as heated as these debates have become with accusations of various unpleasant kinds, nobody has yet said that only their chosen OS is permitted and users of the other OS's must be burned to death "because the voices in my head said so" and yet that is the entire history of religion in a nutshell.

I resist so that the next time a theocrat wants to push his irrelevant to Amiga agenda on an Amiga platform he decides that it is not worth the humiliation of being demonstrated to be a gullible, unthinking child who has yet to learn how to think critically. Bear in mind that BigD is the nut who tried to campaign on this site to prevent same sex marriage being legalised in the UK.

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Thorham 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 16-Apr-2017 11:17:41
#86 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Mar-2014
Posts: 183
From: Unknown

@Nimrod

That's a very good point.

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 16-Apr-2017 12:56:32
#87 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4150
From: UK

@Nimrod

Quote:
I know that closed minded theofascsts cannot be persuaded to change their minds, but they must still be resisted.


You're the one coming across as the anti-free speech right wing extremist here. "They must be resisted!" you say! Anyone would think that we were living in a fascist/communist state from the way you spout off! Thank God we are not.

You haven't humiliated me because your understanding of science, morality and the art of debate is all below par and keeping you on the subject of this thread has been the primary battle!

Quote:
Bear in mind that BigD is the nut who tried to campaign on this site to prevent same sex marriage being legalised in the UK.


The debate if you remember was about 'REDEFINING' marriage to be something in law that it isn't in practice now or at any point in human history. It was and is a sham redefinition and the fact that only 4,850 same-sex marriages took place in 2014, the first year in which they were allowed indicates that it was an absolute waste of money and human effort. All that will happen now is that there will be further pressure to 'redefine' marriage to be a temporary contract as already suggested by author and academic Jeanette Winterson! This is bad news for society all round but especially for children (see a pattern yet?).

Calling me a 'nut' isn't going to win you the argument either but only shows you're running out of ideas

As was beautifully pointed out in the sermon this morning;

Quote:
Science assumes that we are living in a closed system. However, science can in no way disprove that our universe is in fact an 'open system' where God can work miracles from outside the confines of our physical laws at times of his choosing. These are called miracles as demonstrated by the resurrection of Jesus.

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Last edited by BigD on 16-Apr-2017 at 02:03 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 17-Apr-2017 12:22:05
#88 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1185
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD

Quote:
Anyone would think that we were living in a fascist/communist state from the way you spout off!
The only reason that we are not living in a fascistic, authoritarian state is that people like you have not been given their own way.

Since you are still clinging to the wreckage of "ID" it is blatantly obvious that you have less understanding of science, the scientific method or the meaning of the word "evidence" than even a first year schoolchild. Your closing quote proves beyond all doubt that you are approaching the scientific method from the wrong end. It is not up to scientists, or even followers of other religions to disprove your assertions. It is up to you to prove them, and since your collected book of assertions contradicts itself so wildly and so frequently you have a long uphill struggle.

"One might be asked "How can you prove that a god does not exist?" One can only reply that it is scarcely necessary to disprove what has never been proved." - David A. Spitz

Here is another hole in your mythology
Genesis 10
5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations.
31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.
Three times Genesis tells us that the grandsons of Noah moved to foreign countries and spoke the languages of those countries (It fails to tell us who taught them the languages) Having ascertained that everybody spoke foreign languages we turn the page to Genesis11 and are told
"And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech."

And you STILL haven't explained how Jesus could be a young child before Archealaus inherited the throne of Judaea and Samaria from his father and yet preborn after Archelaus was deposed after ten years of misrule. Is that what you Christ-stains call being "born again" and did Mary squeak when the "young child" got shoved back into the orifice he had previously used to come into the world.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 17-Apr-2017 13:01:13
#89 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1185
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD

Quote:
The debate if you remember was about 'REDEFINING' marriage to be something in law that it isn't in practice now or at any point in human history.
So you conveniently forgot the examples of earlier civilisations that acknowledged and accepted same sex relationships before the Christ-stains first wheedled, then slaughtered their way in to power. But I do see a pattern emerging, a pattern of Christian opposition to human rights that goes right back to their opposition of the emancipation of slaves. It was not mainstream religion that opposed slavery, indeed the Bishops in the House of Lords sought to block Wilberforce and the other non-conformists and demanded that the slave owners, not the slaves received compensation. Likewise when women wanted the right to vote it was religious groups that resisted the change citing the bible and the injunction that women were to be subservient to their husbands and keep silent as their justification.

The fact that 4,850 people chose to take advantage of the opportunity to marry a partner of their preference is proof that a need existed. If 4,850 people died in car crashes within a period of nine months caused by a manufacturing fault, would the car manufacturer be justified in not doing anything about it? If a bank allowed 4,850 of its customers to be defrauded by one of its own employees in the space of a less than a single year, would you open an account there? How few people does a law have to discriminate against before you consider it to be unfair and discriminatory, and before you reply to that question I suggest you read Luke15. where the shepherd goes out to search for the missing 1% of his flock, yet you would ignore the fact that allowing for the fact that same sex marriage was only legal for nine months of 2014 more than 2.5% of marriages were between participants of the same gender.

And your attempt to re-introduce the logical fallacy of the "slippery slope" argument shows the level of your desperation and dishonesty. Since Christianity is on the decline in this country and dying rapidly of old age and senile dementia are you suggesting that all civil rights be stripped from Christians when their numbers fall to below 2.5% of the population, or since Jews already comprise less than that magic number should we demolish all synagogues and outlaw the study of the Tanakh? If you try that, you will find me fighting alongside the Jews even though I find their religion to be almost as vile as yours.

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 18-Apr-2017 12:18:35
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4150
From: UK

@Nimrod

Quote:
But I do see a pattern emerging, a pattern of Christian opposition to human rights


Again you conveniently forget the human right for a child to have a Mother AND a Father. But obviously in your twisted world where embryos and fetuses have the same value as amoeba (since your FAITH position informs you that an amoeba is where humanity evolved from at least you're consistent on that level ), its no surprise that you view children as commodities and marriage as expendable and redefinable ad infinitum!

The ONLY reason we are living in a semi-civilised and semi-compassionate society is the influence of Jesus and the Bible. You only have to look at the corruption and inequality that is rife in atheistic countries like Russia to see what the equivalent 'Godless society' descends into.

Saying that there seems to be ZERO compassion for the unborn amongst the liberal elite and the atheistic 'I'm significantly more learned about sect and cults and all things science' type armchair experts like yourself. This is bad for society and deeply unsettling and 4,850 couples getting a same-sex marriage is not going to undo the RAMPANT INEQUALITY that argues its fine to experiment on a human being as long as it's sourced from a feminists body!

Last edited by BigD on 18-Apr-2017 at 12:20 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 18-Apr-2017 15:20:40
#91 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1185
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD

Quote:
Again you conveniently forget the human right for a child to have a Mother AND a Father.
So can I sue your god on behalf of all the children who were denied a father because their fathers died on the battlefields of Europe, or the children whose fisherman fathers died at sea, or children whose fathers died in mining accidents. Yes, in an ideal world heterosexual couples will marry and remain married until their offspring are themselves parents of grown children, but that isn't how the real world works, and despite your lies to the contrary, the Social Services (aka SS) do not go around looking for children to be torn from the arms of loving heterosexual family environments to be given to gay couples as playthings. I will ask you why you campaign on a computer forum to restore the anti-homosexual laws that led to the death of Alan Turing, while not leading any form of campaign to outlaw divorce? Do you know how to pronounce the word "hypocrite"? Of course you will duck that question just as you duck questions about the back story behind your chosen cult of death.

It is not faith that informs me that the scientists have got it right about common ancestry and evolution by means of natural selection, it is knowledge that the scientific method, he "Lex Parsimoniae" and the peer review system have between them given consistently better results than burning dissidents at the stake has. I strongly recommend that you read a book that explains how peer review works. In fact I recommend that you read any book that is not the "Wholly Babble"

If tyou think that the "morality" taught is a good way to run a country I want no part of your country. Where is the morality in selling your daughter as a sex-slave? Where is the justice in killing somebody for working on the Sabbath? Should I have stoned my sons to death when they were going through their stroppy teenager phase?
Russia is not a "godless" country, in fact the Jehovah's witnesses, (a Christian denomination who renounce war, homosexuality, and blood transfusions) are currently being persecuted at the instigation of the Russian Orthodox church. Did you forget so quickly that I pointed out that many of the more than 42,000 different denominations, persuasions, movements, communities, schisms, sects, orders and cults of Christianity are actively seeking the eradication and extermination of people who are in a different denomination, persuasion, movement, community, schism, sect, order or cult than their own. If you want to be judgemental about secular societies, I suggest you look at an actual secular society to be judgemental of. Try that same trick with Norway, Sweden, Iceland or Japan.

Quote:
'I'm significantly more learned about sect and cults
Prove it.
Explain the fact that according to the bible Joseph was the product of gay sex between Jacob and Heli.
Explain how Jesus could be a young child in the reign of Herod while not being born until more than ten years after Herod had died.
Tell the world what you think it was that the Docetist Christian sect believed and when it was they were exterminated for their belief.

Giving minorities EQUAL RIGHTS is not "rampant inequality". The "rampant inequality" comes from granting your religion special privileges. Why should 26 Christian church leaders be given automatic seats on the upper house of the legislature of this country? Why not 26 University Dons, or 26 captains of Industry, or even 26 leading philosophers or scientists? Considering the long and bloody history of torture, murder, and genocide within the Christian religion, why should anybody listen to the mothings of Christian special interest groups or lobbyists? What you perceive as you being persecuted is nothing more than your privileges being withdrawn and you having to come down to the same status as the rest of us. If you want to win your case, you need to provide some verifiable evidence to support your claims. It is no longer good enough to just wave a book in the air and tell me that your book insists that you have privileges. There are over 1100 different and disparate religions, and most of them have a book that makes the same sort of claims to privileged status built on the same absence of any evidence.

Last edited by Nimrod on 18-Apr-2017 at 03:26 PM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 18-Apr-2017 at 03:22 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 18-Apr-2017 21:35:18
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4150
From: UK

@Nimrod

Quote:
BigD HALF Quote: '....'I'm significantly more learned about sect and cults'...

Nimrod Quote: Prove it.


THE ACTUAL FULL QUOTE WAS:

Quote:
there seems to be ZERO compassion for the unborn amongst the liberal elite and the atheistic 'I'm significantly more learned about sect and cults and all things science' type armchair experts like yourself.


I was talking about your smug pompous attitude! Again READ MORE AND SPOUT LESS TRIPE. That seems to be all that can be learned by your moronic half arsed infactuation with dodgy theology and heresy.

You really can't seem to engage with the subject of this thread.

Quote:
the rest of us


You can't even accept that other Christians exist never mind own an Amiga

Quote:
1100 different and disparate religions


Keep reading all that man-made 'religious' garbage that you love to study and you'll keep spouting this multicultural political correct garbage out. A faith in Jesus is in no way comparable to worshipping an elephant god or visiting a rat temple What the hell did you learn in Religious Education or your day trip to that cathedral? You're obsessed with contradiction and yet you pretend to be interested in the study of science and order in the universe when you believe that it came from chaos and presumably therefore giving rise to a theoretical chaotic universe without order and impossible to predict (observable absolute values and testable laws in all areas of Physics prove your world view wrong). You pretend to appreciate progress and yet have no problem with the devaluing of human life occuring at the Life Centre which basically sets us up as a rogue state with no regard for the human rights of the unborn.

Quote:
Russia is not a "godless" country


It's Christian heritage is virtually non-existant thanks to the atheist communists. I'm sorry if you also have a poster of Joseph Stalin on your wall as a good upstanding atheist with sound and dispassionate ideas on how to modernise the USSR! "Most of us" here think that Joseph Stalin was a negative influence on the world but maybe you have a unique perspective of your own Perhaps you secretly admire the Nazi scientists for all their 'progressive' medical science breakthroughs based on human experimentation and torture? If you think all medical and genetic experimentation is progress and positive then you are deluded. Human life before birth is being mutilated and destroyed. Is that acceptable to you when the individual is weak and unable to defend himself? Is it acceptable for embryos or fetuses to be treated like algae in your eyes? Who knows to what lengths you think scientists should be allowed to go!! You really are on dangerous territory regarding your current ideology and world view .


Quote:
Giving minorities EQUAL RIGHTS is not "rampant inequality".


Again... THE UNBORN ARE THE MINORITY BEING TALKED ABOUT HERE AND THEY ARE NOT BEING GIVEN EQUAL RIGHTS. READ THE TEXT!!

If you haven't got anything to add to this thread ABOUT 3-PARENT BABIES other than religious heresy and gay marriage quips then I suggest you call it a day.

P.S.

Quote:
whose parents have been prohibited by a judge from seeking treatment for a mitochondrial disease. A child who will shortly die because some theist thinks that prayer will be more beneficial to that child than trying to save its life.


They can't 'treat' a child for mitochodrial disease in the way you suggest. Ironically, yes prayer would be more effective than maternal spindle transfer or pronuclear transfer once the child is ALREADY conceived, born and in Great Ormond St. Hospital! Affected parents who know they have a genetic abnormality that leads to this awful condition in their biological children should consider ADOPTING! Killing or mutilating other embryos to give them a biological child is not the answer. I repeat: A CHILD BORN WITH MITOCHODRIAL DISEASE CANNOT BE CURED WITH THIS PROCEDURE! THIS PROCEDURE IS TO ALLOW PARENTS TO CHEAT YOUR BELOVED NATURAL SELECTION AND HAVE THEIR OWN BIOLOGICAL CHILDREN AT THE EXPENSE OF COUNTLESS OTHER LIVES OF THE UNBORN. IT ALSO GIVES SCIENTISTS CARTE BLANCHE TO CONTINUE EXPERIMENTING ON HUMAN LIFE AS IF THEY WERE AMOEBA CELLS!

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 21-Apr-2017 12:02:42
#93 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1185
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD
You talk about a smug, pompous attitude and ye it was YOU that opened a discussion thread on a site dedicated to enjoymen of a COMPUTER system to demand, (nor t request but DEMAND) that scientific research be curtailed purely on the grounds that it contradicts the message in a hate-filled collection of plagiarised myths and legends, primitive superstitions and lies compiled over a thousand years ago for the political benefit of a Roman emperor.
The "dodgy theology" is that being peddled in a book that can't even get its story straight about the principle boy in its puerile and pathetic pantomime. You question science and pretend that its evidence based ideas are wrong while ignoring the fact that the nativity myths in your badly writ "holy writ" contradict contradict each other in every aspect. They have "Jesus" as a young child a decade before he was born and they have Joseph, husband of Mary the son of two men, Jacob who provided the semen (Jacob begat Joseph) that led to the birth of Joseph, son of Heli

Yes, other Christians DO exist, and some of them even own computers that run an Amiga operating system of one form or another. And yet only you see fit to use this computer enthusiasts forum to proselytise your chosen religious bias, and only you consider disagreement to be heresy, a crime that requires not just the death penalty, but punishment beyond death.

So it comes to the logical fallacy that anybody who doesn't give you overwhelming privilege is persecuting you. At no time in his life did Josef Stalin embark on a campaign to eradicate Christians in the way that Christians have frequently sought to exterminate Jews, or even Christians who interpreted the bible differently. Josef Stalin was a dictator who sought to remove opposition, just as many Christian monarchs have done throughout history. He was a dictator who as a young man had been trained to the priesthood in the Russian Orthodox tradition. He was a dictator who used his knowledge of how to manipulate the unthinking religious masses for his own benefit, just like generations of priests, bishops, archbishops and popes have done throughout the centuries. Incidentally, before I address your comment about the Nazis can I just invoke Godwin's Law. The Nazis were an organisation that came to power in a country that had a population of almost two thirds Lutheran Protestants and almost one third Catholics. The vast majority of the remaining minority were the Jews who the Christians sought to exterminate in labour camps and gas chambers. The leaders of all of the European fascist groups were practising and confessing Catholics, and after the war ended the Catholic church sheltered many Nazi war criminals and smuggled them to South America to escape prosecution for their crimes, so your attempt to paint the vilest episode in history as the result of Atheism is a complete and absolute lie.

Quote:
THE UNBORN ARE THE MINORITY BEING TALKED ABOUT HERE AND THEY ARE NOT BEING GIVEN EQUAL RIGHTS. READ THE TEXT!!
I know that the unborn are the topic of the discussion, and according to your own "Wholly Babble" the unborn have no rights. Using the bible to give human rights to the preborn is like granting human rights to cats and dogs. As for your concerns about the humanity of the human rights of the mitochondria harvested from the donor ovum, you throw away more living human cells when you cut your toenails. If you get a nosebleed do you hold a funeral for the millions of red bloodcells soaked into the tissue you used to clean up with? Do you mourn every time a woman has a period because yet another potential human has just failed to win the struggle to live? A woman will typically have 13 menstrual cycles in each year of her more than thirty years of fertility. Only two or three of these more than 390 potential humans will typically gestate and proceed to term, meaning that the unborn are the vast majority, but you seem unconcerned about their fate unless a scientist gets his hands on them.

I know that the treatment used to produce a child free of the mitochondrial disease cannot be used to treat a child who has already been born with the disease. The point I was trying to hammer through your armour plated prejudices is that as a result of successful treatment during conception there will be no need for a child to suffer in the way that Charlie Gard has suffered and a judge will not be required to overturn the repeal of the death penalty in British law and sentence a seven-month-old child to death. But you would sooner see post-natal children die than do anything to help them. And yes, that does involve defying natural selection, as does inoculating children against a whole range of diseases that used to kill thousands of children every year. The fact that Smallpox is a thing of the past is because scientists chose to cheat natural selection, and hopefully soon polio will join it. Or would you prefer those diseases were only treatable by prayer, a method that has 0.000% success rate as is demonstrated by the billions of dollars Pfizer makes every year from the manufacture and sale of Viagra

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 21-Apr-2017 20:54:28
#94 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4150
From: UK

@Nimrod

Quote:
I know that the unborn are the topic of the discussion, and according to your own "Wholly Babble" the unborn have no rights.


Asolute rubbish! Again it's like you think you are an oracle on the Bible and an uber Sunday School teacher or something when you are completely misinformed and confused about the Bible. PLUS and most importantly YOU COULD show some compassion towards the unborn and empathy towards experimentation and flagrant abuse of human life without spouting off any heresy about the Bible. However, the temptation is obviously too grear for you to resist but you really should stop and consider that this thread is NOT a religious thread. You obviously feel the best way to stop this debate is to try and discredit my belief and hence me. You are a very deluded individual if you think that. The reformation happened, the cults are dealt with and your heralded 'enlightenment' was anything but. You have created another belief system of your own but it is still a faith position and a far shakier one than a belief in 'Yahweh'.

Quote:
Or would you prefer those diseases were only treatable by prayer, a method that has 0.000% success rate as is demonstrated by the billions of dollars Pfizer makes every year from the manufacture and sale of Viagra


Let's see if you feel the same way if you or one of your loved ones has an incurable disease or you're nearing the end of your days. Will you scream for the blood of a thousand human embryos and their embryonic stem cells to help you or will you turn to God? Time will tell.

Last edited by BigD on 21-Apr-2017 at 08:54 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 21-Apr-2017 21:55:57
#95 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1185
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD
I have never claimed to be an expert on the bible. In fact I have been seeking answers to my questions about the bible for half a century and to date nobody has had the decency to give me an answer. Even you have refused to even consider my questions.
1) Who was Josephs father, was it *Jacob* (Matthew1:16), or *Heli* (Luke3:23)
2) Why is there a thriving city at 33.2708° N, 35.1961° E
3) What is the text of the last of "The Ten Commandments" and what does it prohibit.
4) How long did Sargon1 of the Akkadian Empire spend treading water during Noahs flood?
5) What was created for Adam to be "a help meet unto him"?
6) Do rabbits chew the cud? (Lev11:6)and are bats a type of bird (Lev11:19)
7) Was little baby jesus born *before* Archelaus became Tetrarch of Judaea, or *after* Augustus had deposed Archelaus from that position?
8) How many Koalas and Kangaroos were on the Ark, as well as Wallabies and Wombats? Are marsupials classed as "clean" or "unclean" creatures, and *who knew* since the definitions are not given until Leviticus. In fact despite your claims of being an expert, I bet there is not one of these questions that you will give a full and justifiable answer for.

As for your claim that you were not religiously motivated to open this discussion I call bovine excrement. This is just another rinse and repeat of your anti-abortion, anti-LGBT, anti-secular, anti-intellectual theofascist dogma. You want to restrict science because science is anathema to your religion which considers "eating from the tree of knowledge" to be a capital crime, especially if that knowledge is able to prove the stories in the bible to be wrong. You accuse me of heresy and in doing so expose your antipathy towards science and the use of human intelligence. Here are a few synonyms for heresy for you to consider. dissension, dissent, dissidence, nonconformity, unorthodoxy, heterodoxy, apostasy, freethinking. Your opposition to these qualities indicates that you want everybody on this planet to be unthinking mindless zombies, a kind of theistic reworking of Borg drones, or did you forget that when William Wilberforce aligned himself agains slavery he was refusing to conform to the instructions of the vast majority of the Christian leadership. The only times the Christian religion has done good it has been done by heretics and non-conformists.

Atheism is NOT a belief system. It is in fact a rejection of beliefs. Until Zoroastrians bring forward sufficient evidence to convince me of the existence of Ahura-Mazda I have no reason to believe the claims made in the Avestas, and no reason to worship Ahura-Mazda even though apparently only Ahura-Mazda is worthy of worship. And the same applies to Christians with their invented deity. Not only is there no evidence to corroborate the claims made in the bible, and not only do the bible stories contradict all of the historical, documentary and archaeological evidence, the bible stories even grossly contradict other bible stories.

We don't get Jews coming to this site and opening threads calling for the banning of eating pork. We don't get Muslims coming to this site calling for the outlawing of drinking alcohol. We don't get Mormons coming to this site and opening threads calling for the banning of drinking coffee. So why should we have you posting emotional garbage calling for the treating of unfertilised ova as more important than living, breathing, post-natal humans. I suppose you want research and treatment to be stopped from eradicating polio as well.

Your final comment is a no-brainer. Would I pin my hopes on a system of processing data that has taken the human race from the dark ages when the majority of people died before reaching their seventh birthday often of easily preventable diseases, or on the system that gave us the dark ages in the first place. Prayer is nothing more than wishful thinking while closing your eyes to avoid seeing which way the evidence is pointing. Mark 16:18 of your bible assures believers that they can handle snakes with impunity and drink deadly poisons without coming to harm. Every year people test this theory out, always with predictable results. You can try it yourself if you like, and if you haven't already reproduced yet you too could qualify for a Darwin Award

Last edited by Nimrod on 22-Apr-2017 at 09:01 AM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 22-Apr-2017 at 08:02 AM.

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Thorham 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 22-Apr-2017 11:42:42
#96 ]
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Joined: 5-Mar-2014
Posts: 183
From: Unknown

You guys sure like arguing

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 22-Apr-2017 12:57:33
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4150
From: UK

@Nimrod

Quote:
We don't get Jews coming to this site and opening threads calling for the banning of eating pork. We don't get Muslims coming to this site calling for the outlawing of drinking alcohol. We don't get Mormons coming to this site and opening threads calling for the banning of drinking coffee. So why should we have you posting emotional garbage calling for the treating of unfertilised ova as more important than living, breathing, post-natal humans. I suppose you want research and treatment to be stopped from eradicating polio as well.


Who mentioned unfertilised ova? More twisting of what I ACTUALLY said? Pronuclear Transfer (allowed under UK legislation involves the destruction of a human embryo (fertilised egg) and the destruction of countless other 'spare' embryos kept on ice (that 'spare human' destruction process is true for Maternal Spindle Transfer and basic IVF too)

You really are not engaging with this thread on any sensible level other than here's a Christian so let's attempt (in an frankly embarassingly crude way) to undermine the validity of having a faith in Jesus

You can hold the position that meddling with GM-babies is inappropriate eugenics on par with Nazi scientist experimentation and is wrong on a base level and something the rest of the world legislates against WITHOUT holding ANY religious stance. However, YOU CAN'T ACCEPT THAT! The sooner you do the sooner we can shut down this thread.

P.S. Fighting viruses and bacteria is NOT the same as genetically manipulating, experimenting on and destroying human embryos and it is moronic to suggest it is!

Last edited by BigD on 22-Apr-2017 at 01:08 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 22-Apr-2017 at 01:07 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 22-Apr-2017 at 01:02 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 22-Apr-2017 at 01:00 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 22-Apr-2017 17:27:07
#98 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1185
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD
There is a difference between a single ovum and a living breathing human being, and both of us recognise the difference. The difference is that the ovum is totally dependant on another living being and even then has a limited possibility of becoming a living breathing human being. Even if the ovum is internally fertilised the old fashioned way, more fail to embed themselves into the uterine wall than succeed and thus fail to develop into embryos. Of those that do most abort naturally within the first trimester. Some even abort in the second trimester, and a very small number develop right up until a few days before birth before dying in the uterus. And yet I don't hear you demanding that your deity stand trial for manslaughter, or even deliberate premeditated murder. Why is this, or have I exposed your double standards again.
The main difference between the preborn and living breathing babies is that you couldn't give a sh1t about the child after it has drawn its first breath even though the bible does not acknowledge a foetus as having any rights until such time as it draws its first breath. Read Exodus21:22 and tell me why a man who causes a woman to miscarry is only fined, instead of being tried as a murderer, and likewise the husband who causes his wife's abortion as part of the "bitter waters" test for fidelity is also not called a murderer.

I will remind you AGAIN that the Nazis were all Christians regardless whether they were the ones experimenting of Jews to discover the best way of reviving fighter pilots who had been immersed in the freezing water of the North sea or whether they were administering Zyklon-B in the "showers".

On your final claim, UK is NOT the only country in the world that allows embryonic stem cell research although it is more successful than many of those that do, and ALL of those that do not.

Last edited by Nimrod on 23-Apr-2017 at 07:52 AM.

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 23-Apr-2017 12:59:18
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4150
From: UK

@Nimrod

Quote:
I will remind you AGAIN that the Nazis were all Christians


Now you really have lost the plot!!!! The Christians were one of the first groups persecuted once the Nazis took power. Since this is another blind spot in your knowledge pease read the following link:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-9/christians-against-nazis-german-confessing-church.html

Quote:
On your final claim, UK is NOT the only country in the world that allows embryonic stem cell


And yet we ARE the ONLY country to allow Mitochondrial Transfer which is what I was talking about!

Seriously, if you are going to just misread everything and then twist this thread to your own faith position then there is no point continuing. Plus your understanding of the value the Bible puts on ALL human life is pitiful.

Psalm 139:13
Quote:
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.


Genesis 1:27
Quote:
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.


I can't see how God would want a valued individual created in his own image and actively created in the womb by God to be destroyed in any sick eugenics type procedure. My final warning to you is keep pretending you understand and care about what the Bible has to say at your own peril. You need to sit down and study it with an open mind or leave it be.

Last edited by BigD on 23-Apr-2017 at 01:01 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 23-Apr-2017 21:54:07
#100 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1185
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD

Quote:
The Christians were one of the first groups persecuted once the Nazis took power.
Typical Christ-stain trying to play the "victim" card. Just as you can pull the names of a very few Christians who opposed the Nazi doctrine of genocide, I too can name a handful of Nazi party members who saved a few people from certain death, or at least tried to I suppose you also think that when John Rabe tried to intervene to end the Nanjing massacre that his behaviour was typical of the Nazis because they were all sweetness and light. There were a handful of Christians who were arrested and killed by the Nazis but the first victims were the mentally ill, the homosexuals and the Jews. Even Pastor Martin Niemoller started out supporting the Nazis and only gradually abandoned his fascist views and even made pejorative remarks about Jews of faith while protecting baptised Christians, persecuted as Jews by the Nazis, due to their Jewish ancestry. The main Christian victims of the Nazis were the Jehovah's witnesses who were called "Bible Students" at the time, and guess what. Today the Jehovahs witnesses are again being persecuted for their beliefs, this time by the Russian government at the behest of the Russian Orthodox Church.
Here is just a part of my proof that the Facists were all confessing Catholics.
Fascist dictators of the 20th Century
Belgium : Leon Degrelle : Catholic
Bohemia-Moravia : Emil Hacha : Catholic
Croatia : Ante Pavelic : Catholic
Germany : Adolf Hitler : Catholic
Italy : Benito Mussolini : Catholic
Portugal : Antonio Salazar : Catholic
Slovakia : Fr. Josef Tiso : Catholic priest
Spain : Francisco Franco : Catholic
Sudetenland : Konrad Henlein : Catholic
Vichy-France : Pierre Laval : Catholic
Vichy-France : Henri Petain : Catholic
It seems that far from opposing religion, fascism was an extension of the "Church Militant" for the Church of Rome.

Quote:
And yet we ARE the ONLY country to allow Mitochondrial Transfer which is what I was talking about!
So how many countries have actively outlawed it? The US has classed it as human genetic modification even though the mitochondria are not part of the Human genome, and the political decision went against the expert advice put forward by the National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Medicine report that found that such therapy was "ethically permissible" if conducted in male embryos and limited to women with mitochondrial diseases. Also Britain only legislated on mitochondrial transfer technology after the birth of a healthy, disease free "three parent" baby in Mexico. Ukrainian doctors at the Nadiya clinic in Kiev also reported that they had used the pronuclear transfer method of mitichondrial donation to help two previously infertile women aged 34 and 29 become pregnant. The doctors first got approval from an ethical review board of the Ukrainian Association of Reproductive Medicine but there was no law in the Ukraine against mitochondrial donation.Not only are you ignorant of the true facts about your own bible, you are equally ignorant of the scientific and legal facts.

Quote:
You need to sit down and study it with an open mind or leave it be.
YOU are the one that needs to study your book, and then try to provide honest answers to my set of eight simple questions. But of course you wont do that because the questions expose some very crucial failings of the book you believe gives a sound moral structure to live your life by. Only then will you realise that the bible does not define an embryo as human life. It does not define a foetus as human life if a man fighting another man hits a pregnant woman causing her to miscarry, as the man is only forced to pay financial restitution to her husband/owner, not pay for the life of a child with his own life.

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