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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
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yoodoo2 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 9-Feb-2017 20:39:17
#61 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Aug-2003
Posts: 1332
From: Stourbridge, UK

@BigD

Quote:
If it's just the inability to copy the path string surely DOpus adds the functionality?


Just tried to highlight path from windows on a couple of different Linuxes - on neither could you just highlight the text directly, probably for the reasons Andy specified.

You could right click and copy path/text. Again, as Andy said, this would be up to the individual app to offer it, or perhaps a commodity to grab info from the system list of open windows.

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Hypex 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 10-Feb-2017 13:50:23
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@BigD

Quote:
What? System wide copy, paste and/or a system wide 'clipboard' hasn't been implemented and is "not possible"!


It would be useful and at times I have needed it.

Well usually when you copy it is in some kind of string gadget or editor so is under program control. And the program knows the position and sizes of the characters there. For something like a window title bar, other window text or an icon name it is slightly harder. Yes Intuition rendered the text there. But the program responsible such as Workbench doesn't cater to text selection that way. Intuition could do it by logging text renders to allow for this which would pull more resources. But so could Workbench since it would have a text database.

Testing OSX (10.5) I don't see it doing it there either. Unless it has its own key shortcut. And on Linux... well like with Windows there is a separation between the CLI and user interface. Windows is stuck at KS1.3 level with no history buffer. And on Linux you can Ctrl-C text but must Right mouse->Paste into a CLI. So at least we have integration with AmigaOS.

Do you remember PowerSnap? That does this. System wide text copy. As good as it can. We just need an OS4 version.

http://aminet.net/package/util/cdity/PowerSnap22a

Window titles could be looked up and other text could be inside a linked list of gadget objects. So it should certainly be possible.

Last edited by Hypex on 10-Feb-2017 at 02:12 PM.

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broadblues 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 11-Feb-2017 1:04:31
#63 ]
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Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@Hypex

Quote:

And on Linux... well like with Windows there is a separation between the CLI and user interface.


No there isn't, the clip board is just as global on linux as on AmigaOS. in a terminal you need to use Shift-CTRL-C and Shift-CTRL-V rather than plain CTRL-C CTRL-V due to the obvious consequences of CTRCL-C. Linux is also 'limited' to only copying text where the src appliaction suports it (try copying the text in a tab title on chrome for example). It's more powerful though in that clips can be multiply encoded and some destinations like open office can should choose formatted ot src code versions (usually requires the original src program to be running, so I'd guess there must be some kind of call back hook).

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Hypex 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 11-Feb-2017 1:28:57
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@broadblues

Quote:
No there isn't, the clip board is just as global on linux as on AmigaOS. in a terminal you need to use Shift-CTRL-C and Shift-CTRL-V rather than plain CTRL-C CTRL-V due to the obvious consequences of CTRCL-C.


See that's what I mean. It doesn't use the same key combo. Needing to press another key just gets in the way so I just use mouse menu. In any case usually a paste applies only to the terminal line or some editor running within so a "break" shouldn't affect that. I press Ctrl-C out of habit a lot and no editor has "broke" so far. I just get no response.

Of course that's them choosing the old fashioned DOS/Windows PC copy and paste shortcuts. When the Windows key should have replaced that years ago. At least Apple is like Amiga that way.

One thing that annoys me is dragging a file in to a Linux terminal. It doesn't select the window like in AmigaOS. And also the file isn't guaranteed to work if it isn't a normal path but in desktop path. But that's another story.

I have noticed that doing copy file on desktop can put the file path in the clipboard. Which is handy. Perhaps a context menu for a file copy doing this would be useful on AmigaOS.

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Dandy 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 14-Feb-2017 11:06:06
#65 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote:
@Dandy

...
It isn't possible to do that, as displayed text is just graphics.



When the OS was coded, someone must have typed it in as text.
So why is it converted to a graphic at all?

On other systems it is also no problem to copy/paste such text strings - I don't see why this is a problem for the coders of AOS.

Quote:

broadblues wrote:

Copy and Paste requires extra code that knows what the origial text is,



Again: why is the text converted to graphic at all? Leave it as text and copy/paste works for this as well as it does at other locations...

Quote:

broadblues wrote:

which will be custom on a per aplication basis,



Not sure if I fully get what you mean here - I was talking about the OS - not about third party software...

Quote:

broadblues wrote:

or you would have to replace all text rendering with gadgets that can handle the input,



Just don't render the text in the first place. Then it should work like it already does at so many other places.

Quote:

broadblues wrote:

and there was already a complaint about text speed earlier in the thead....



Not by me...

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Dandy 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 14-Feb-2017 11:10:19
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:

...
If it's just the inability to copy the path string surely DOpus adds the functionality?



I'm using DOpus 4.16 and this version doesn't allow to highlight, copy and paste the paths in the lines below the lister windows.
Unfortunately not.

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wawa 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 14-Feb-2017 11:56:23
#67 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Dandy

Quote:
Again: why is the text converted to graphic at all


yes, this is a bit puzzling. contemporary systems usually allow to extract path one way or the other, even if its not granted that a particular gui supports simply copying it from address bar.

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Dandy 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 14-Feb-2017 12:11:42
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Daedalus

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:
@BigD

...
What there *isn't* is a method of copying and pasting text that isn't part of a gadget, e.g. requester text, window titles, screen titles, since they're text rendered to a bitmap that the system has no real awareness of at that level. Even Windows doesn't let you copy and paste window titles, or any text that's not specifically displayed in a copyable form.



Perhaps a "method of copying and pasting text that isn't part of a gadget" would not be needed at all, if it would be generally agreed upon only displaying all paths and/or error messages at locations where the text can easily be highlighted and copied.
"Paste" is not really needed here - I don't want to insert text in the requester.
I just want to be able to e.g. highlight & copy an error message and insert it elsewhere - e.g. in a computer forum where I am looking for help.
Up to now, I have either to write the error message down on a sheet of paper and then re-type it manually in the forum posting, or I make a screenshot of it and show that on the forum.

But as most fora require photos/screenshots to be linked from a place on the web, I need a webspace first where I can upload the screenshot to and post a link to it on the forum.

This process is really too time consuming and too annoying in 2017 from my POV.

It would be much easier if I could highlight & copy the text of e.g. an error message and then being able to paste it to my forum post!

Hey - that's what computers were originally made for - to make our lives easier!
(And not to help us solving that kind of problems we wouldn't have at all without them...)


Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Try highlight and copy HUD text in a game for example.



As I rarely play games I will most likely not run into such difficulties.
B.T.W. - what is "HUD"?

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

But text in any text field can easily be copied and pasted system-wide on AOS.



So simply displaying all paths and error messages in text fields instead of rendering and displaying them as graphics would solve my problem, as I already guessed?

It does not matter how you do it, just do it!!!

Where did this crazy idea to render such text strings and display them as graphics at all come from?


Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

As an aside, there was a utility for OS3 called PowerSnap that let you highlight any text on screen and it would attempt to copy the text to the clipboard. I presume it worked through some sort of simple OCR, but anyway, it was quite useful. I haven't tried it on OS4 but something tells me it doesn't have a hope of working with the new font rendering system.



Wasn't aware of this option. Thanks for the hint. Will have to find, download & try it...

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Dandy 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 14-Feb-2017 12:54:54
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@BigD

...
It would be useful and at times I have needed it.



So I'm not the only one...

Quote:

Hypex wrote:

Well usually when you copy it is in some kind of string gadget or editor so is under program control. And the program knows the position and sizes of the characters there. For something like a window title bar, other window text or an icon name it is slightly harder.



Is it really THAT hard to have a text field in all window title bars and to display the text there - by default?

Quote:

Hypex wrote:

Yes Intuition rendered the text there.



Why?
What's that meant to be good for at all?
Why not leave it in text format and display it in text fields by default?

Quote:

Hypex wrote:

But the program responsible such as Workbench doesn't cater to text selection that way.



Then WB should be made to cater for it.

Quote:

Hypex wrote:

Intuition could do it by logging text renders to allow for this which would pull more resources. But so could Workbench since it would have a text database.



Wouldn't you agree that if the text wouldn't be rendered as graphics in the first place, there would be no need to make Intuition log text renders ion the second place and resources would not have to be wasted?

Quote:

Hypex wrote:

Testing OSX (10.5) I don't see it doing it there either. ... And on Linux... well like with Windows there is a separation between the CLI and user interface.



I hope you don't want to tell me by this that therefore the Amiga also must not have this feature...

Quote:

Hypex wrote:

Windows is stuck at KS1.3 level with no history buffer.



Are you talking about Windows or M$-DOS here?
But even if you're talking about DOS here, I seem to have a weak remembrance that you could very well use the F3-key or the cursor keys for up and down to repeat earlier Input...would have to check in my old M$-DOS 5.0 manual (if I can find it in the basement)...

Quote:

Hypex wrote:

And on Linux you can Ctrl-C text but must Right mouse->Paste into a CLI.



Unfortunately I had no chance to have a look at Linux, so far...

I have the "Amiga Unix Compendiuom" and wanted to test PPC Linux on my CSPPC at some point, but never understood what I have to download to get a working environment. Too many different bootstraps, kernels, distros and the like - much too confusing. Didn't have enough spare time to waste it that way...

Quote:

Hypex wrote:

So at least we have integration with AmigaOS.




Not sure if I fully get what you want to say with this...

Quote:

Hypex wrote:

Do you remember PowerSnap? That does this. System wide text copy. As good as it can. We just need an OS4 version.

http://aminet.net/package/util/cdity/PowerSnap22a



Will have to try this...thanks for the link...

Quote:

Hypex wrote:

Window titles could be looked up and other text could be inside a linked list of gadget objects. So it should certainly be possible.



Yeah - but has it got to be that complicated? Wouldn't it be easier not to render the text at all and to display it in text fields by default instead?

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wawa 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 14-Feb-2017 13:17:26
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Dandy

btw, the functionality we are talking about is at hand in lubuntu and also in wanderer on aros (68k if you will), which in this respect also appears to be ahead of other options. speak of pure os3 compatibility. ;)

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saimo 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 14-Feb-2017 14:10:11
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

Answering the original question...
Inclusion of the latest SmartFileSystem and PartitionWizard: those are low-level, essential core components that are (and have been for a long time, maybe from the 4.0 pre-release version) part to the OS and that have limited functionality since 4.1 FE (PartitionWizard doesn't see the SFS partitions). It's a real pity that now they are available only as a component of a third-party commercial bundle.

(I have other ideas as well, but no time to talk about them )

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broadblues 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 14-Feb-2017 14:27:09
#72 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@Dandy

Quote:

So why is it converted to a graphic at all?


Quote:

Just don't render the text in the first place. Then it should work like it already does at so many other places.


How do you expect to read a section of text on the screen if it's not rendered? Telepaphic contact with the programs author / user?

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wawa 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 14-Feb-2017 15:16:09
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@broadblues

common, there must be a function to simply blit text (or strings), otherwise they would really have to be communicated to a user via telepathy. it wouldnt be a rocket science to implement path/address bar in an editable or at least copy-able manner. its been done on aros, it can be done on os4, this is simply a matter of gui design. arent there third party additions that provide this anyway? something called "filer" comes to my mind as possibility.

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broadblues 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 14-Feb-2017 18:15:22
#74 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@wawa

Quote:

@broadblues
common, there must be a function to simply blit text (or strings), otherwise they would really have to be communicated to a user via telepathy.


Ofcourse there is, what do think "rendering text" actually means?



Quote:

it wouldnt be a rocket science to implement path/address bar in an editable or at least copy-able manner.


Ofcourse not, every prgram that I use on AmigaOS (any flavour (well maybe not 1.3)) that has an editable address bar already has copy and paste, as that comes with the stringaclass and derivatives.


Quote:

its been done on aros, it can be done on os4, this is simply a matter of gui design. arent there third party additions that provide this anyway? something called "filer" comes to my mind as possibility.


There's a big differentce between adding a single GUI element to the WB window GUI (which is very possible to do I'm sure) and global all text can be coppied solution.


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Daedalus 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 14-Feb-2017 21:52:27
#75 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote:

As I rarely play games I will most likely not run into such difficulties.
B.T.W. - what is "HUD"?

Sorry, Heads Up Display - in-game text, messages etc., which is usually overlaid on the game screen.

Quote:

So simply displaying all paths and error messages in text fields instead of rendering and displaying them as graphics would solve my problem, as I already guessed?

It does not matter how you do it, just do it!!!

Where did this crazy idea to render such text strings and display them as graphics at all come from?

Yes, that would work, and that's how you can copy most (but not all) messages in Windows - the text is displayed as part of a text field. The problem is, especially for the classic machines, that doing it that way is much slower and more resource intensive than just rendering the text to a bitmap and forgetting about it. But it should be doable for OS4 - and relatively trivial I suspect - requesters could easily be modified to render the message text as a text field.

Without rendering the text as graphics though, all we have is DOS-like screens... And nobody wants that ;)

Last edited by Daedalus on 15-Feb-2017 at 08:35 AM.

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broadblues 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 14-Feb-2017 23:19:49
#76 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@Daedalus

Quote:

requesters could easily be modified to render the message text as a text field.


Bear in mnd that requesters.class requesters display formatted text and as such the contents cannot be displayed by a simple "text field" certaily not anything a simple as a string.gadget (or even texteditor.gadget). Simplest way for requester might be a popup menu to offer a "Copy Requester Text" option.

Quote:

Without rendering the text as graphics though, all we have is DOS-like screens... And nobody wants that ;)


Everything past a teleprinter, renders text as graphics to some degree, and you might even argue that the dotmatrix is a form of bitmap too....

Last edited by broadblues on 14-Feb-2017 at 11:21 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 6:15:26
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Dandy

Quote:
So I'm not the only one...


No. I guess we just don't bring the subject up much.

Quote:
Is it really THAT hard to have a text field in all window title bars and to display the text there - by default?


Actually in this particular case I don't think it would be. AmigaOS has always had gadgets in the title bar. The title text could simply be another text gadget. It almost sounds trivial.

Quote:
Why?


Because that's it job.

Quote:
What's that meant to be good for at all?


It's meant to render all with gadgets in windows and display text. Well graphics.library handles that but intuition.library manages it all. Below the application level.

Quote:
Why not leave it in text format and display it in text fields by default?


Mostly likely because it was chosen to simply print it on screen since it only needed to display it and no more.

Quote:
Then WB should be made to cater for it.


I tend to agree. But I think we a need system wide standard. Should it be simply dragable on the mouse? Or invoke a hot key? In the later case that usually involves a commodity. Though GUI Prefs would be better to do that and integrate it into the system.

Quote:
Are you talking about Windows or M$-DOS here?


Windows XP DOS or command line. Been trying to fix broken system using recovery console. But I have found that depending on how it is loaded that the cursor keys can bring up a history. It's still a bit historic since it lacks tab completion.

Quote:
Unfortunately I had no chance to have a look at Linux, so far...


If you have an A1 you could test my latest Linux installer. LOL.

Quote:
I have the "Amiga Unix Compendiuom" and wanted to test PPC Linux on my CSPPC at some point, but never understood what I have to download to get a working environment.


Yeah there would be a few steps to doing that. Since Linux usually expects some kind of bootloader to be loaded by a BIOS. That then loads and bootstraps the kernel. Which tends to expect an initial ramdisk to boot into. That may or may not have kernel modules. That then locates the drives and what partition to boot off. At least these days. Sounds a bit convoluted. Be similar back then.

Quote:
Not sure if I fully get what you want to say with this...


I think I meant with copying and pasting from the clipboard. Uses same shortcut as system. And being able to drag file names into the shell. AmigaOS is the only OS I have used that does these things consistently.

Quote:
Will have to try this...thanks for the link...


An oldie but a goodie.

Quote:
Yeah - but has it got to be that complicated?


I thought that would have simplfied it, using gadgets to hold the text. Window title text is already stored in the Window object itself so one just needs to calculate a framebox from the font and contents that can be easily detected on drag.

And icons used to be gadgets internally so the same logic can be applied.

Quote:
Wouldn't it be easier not to render the text at all and to display it in text fields by default instead?


It may be. But what would this text field do? In any case most text rendered on screen would be done as a string group. Down the line the letters may be blitted as seperate objects but an upper function knows where they are put. Or can know.

I think a commodity could be coded that figures this stuff out without the need to do things the hard way and perform some OCR on the mouse drag section. It would just need to know what is under the mouse and an activated window would be easier to work with. It could then figure out a drag box for a window title bar or for Workbench locate what icon sits above the mouse which is slightly harder.

Last edited by Hypex on 15-Feb-2017 at 06:42 AM.

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Chris_Y 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 9:30:12
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3203
From: Beds, UK

@broadblues

Quote:
Simplest way for requester might be a popup menu to offer a "Copy Requester Text" option.


Simplest way would be th Windows way - accept and listen for the standard "Copy" keyboard shortcut, and copy the text to the clipboard when it is pressed.

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Chris_Y 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 9:35:34
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3203
From: Beds, UK

@Hypex

Quote:
Yeah there would be a few steps to doing that. Since Linux usually expects some kind of bootloader to be loaded by a BIOS. That then loads and bootstraps the kernel. Which tends to expect an initial ramdisk to boot into. That may or may not have kernel modules. That then locates the drives and what partition to boot off. At least these days. Sounds a bit convoluted. Be similar back then.


But isn't the initial ramdisk just a solid block of files effectively? So no different to Kickstart, except it gets mounted and isn't in ROM?

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Hypex 
Re: Things i would like to be addressed by OS developers
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 9:48:30
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Chris_Y

Quote:
But isn't the initial ramdisk just a solid block of files effectively? So no different to Kickstart, except it gets mounted and isn't in ROM?


Technically yes. In fact, it's really like a HD image. Since it is a filesystem image. And contains a startup script that acts as a chain loader or kick starter, as it loads in disk modules, locates the partition to really boot off then passes control over to that.

Perhaps the closest we could compare it to on Amiga is RAD that actually boots up, does some stuff, then boots a Workbench elsewhere. Of course the RAD would need to be loaded first, so perhaps comparing it to an OS3.9/4 boot floppy would be better where it loads drivers then mounts the CD and boots that.

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