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PosterThread
Dandy 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 12:04:09
#101 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3042
From: Cologne * Germany

@djrikki

Quote:

djrikki wrote:

I fully agree with whoever started the Cut Copy Paste topic.



It was Christoph Gutjahr who stated

Quote:

Original by cgutjahr in #43:

...
But Control-C for 'copy to clipboard' is a no-go.



and I wanted to know WHY he thinks so.

Quote:

djrikki wrote:

In my opinion it should be top priority to flip RAmiga with LAmiga system wide and encourage apps to use CTRL x/c/v and have a standardised way to mark text across all the board on keyboard and or with mouse.



Yes, and to avoid having to re-compile old software for the classic systems, someone could try to find a solution similar to "SKIPROMUPDATE", where the localised standard Amiga keyboard layout gets 'overridden' with a Version with 'CTRL + X/C/V'.

Quote:

djrikki wrote:

This is one area that for millions of users over the world is not negotiable.



Yepp.
The 'CTRL + X/C/V' became a wordwide 'standard' on the most prevalent platforms in the course of the decades and whoever wants to expand the Amiga's userbase would be wise to do it in a way that makes the changeover for those 'new Amigans' as easy as possible.

AFAIK, most people are right-handed.
For right-handed users it is easier to use the right hand to control the mouse and have the left hand free to press CTRL + X/C/V.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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Daedalus 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 12:22:44
#102 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1549
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote:
and I wanted to know WHY he thinks so.

A couple of reasons: Ctrl-C is already a shortcut for sending a break - in fact, ctrl + any key is a control character, used for accents, system control and what not. The fact that Windows uses it doesn't mean it's a good way of doing things. Even Windows has different behaviours for Ctrl+C depending on context!

Quote:
Yes, and to avoid having to re-compile old software for the classic systems, someone could try to find a solution similar to "SKIPROMUPDATE", where the localised standard Amiga keyboard layout gets 'overridden' with a Version with 'CTRL + X/C/V'.

To be fair, that can be done at the OS level without recompilation if the app is properly coded. Keyboard shortcuts are handled by Intuition, not the app itself. If he system decided Ctrl was to be used instead of the Amiga key, the app won't care.

Quote:
Yepp.
The 'CTRL + X/C/V' became a wordwide 'standard' on the most prevalent platforms in the course of the decades and whoever wants to expand the Amiga's userbase would be wise to do it in a way that makes the changeover for those 'new Amigans' as easy as possible.

Yes, on windows, but it's not like that on the Mac, which is the second most used platform in the world. They have similar shortcuts to the Amiga - dedicated shortcut keys that make a lot of sense. Mac users seem to be able to adapt just fine - why do you think new users wouldn't?

The Ctrl shortcuts are an ugly bit of legacy from before PCs had Windows keys on their keyboards.

Quote:
AFAIK, most people are right-handed.
For right-handed users it is easier to use the right hand to control the mouse and have the left hand free to press CTRL + X/C/V.

I think the left/right-handed thing is a little overblown. For proper touch-typing, you're supposed to use the shift key with the opposite hand to the one you're typing the character, so a capital C uses the left hand for the letter C and the right hand for holding down shift. For me it follows that other qualifiers would also be used that way, and indeed when I'm using the keyboard I use my right hand for Ctrl and left hand for X, C or V. When I'm using the mouse (in my right hand) however I will use one hand for keyboard shortcuts, and on the PC that's the left hand with the left Ctrl key, but on the Amiga and Mac I use the left hand with the right shortcut key. Since it's a lot closer to the centre of the keyboard than the Ctrl key, it's not a stretch at all, and feels more natural to me than the left shortcut key, which is directly under the keys I'm trying to press with it, making it slightly awkward with one hand.

Last edited by Daedalus on 28-Mar-2017 at 12:25 PM.

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Dandy 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 12:56:58
#103 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3042
From: Cologne * Germany

@Daedalus

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:
@djrikki

Oh no :( Why start to introduce shortcuts from other platforms?



Why not?
As I already pointed out to djrikki in my last answer, the 'CTRL + X/C/V' became a wordwide 'standard' on the most prevalent platforms in the course of the recent decades.
If the Amiga is meant to attract new users, it would be wise to do it in a way that makes a changeover as easy as possible for those 'new Amigans'. And that includes to adopt this standard.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Popularity doesn't necessarily make it good, otherwise MacDonalds would be the best restaurant in the world.



Enjoying great popularity can have two reasons:
1) something is trendy or stylish (but not necessarily functional)
2) something is truly functional

For me as a right-handed user, the 'CTRL + X/C/V'-way is by far more functional and practicable than the current Amiga-way.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

It sounds like you're just uncomfortable with things being a little different. Ctrl is an awkward shortcut key because it's also used for control characters.



Yes, I am uncomfortable with the Amiga-way being a "little different" in this regard.

While the intentions of the original Amiga developers may have been good (I'm just a soul whose intentions are good - Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood) in this regard back in the early 80ies, it has turned out in 2017 that 'god' didn't mind them being 'misunderstood', e.g. things developed differently than anticipated by them and Joe Commonuser prefers the other way meanwhile.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

The Amiga and Mac both have it right - dedicated keys for shortcuts and consistency across software. Windows and Linux, while better than they were in the past, are generally a shortcuts nightmare.



Not really.
Although the developers 'did it right', 'the masses' didn't give a damn shit for that.
'The masses' voted with their feet and made the WIntel platform the prevalent one.
'Done right' is not an decision criterion - in a 'free and democratic world' the majority decides.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Ctrl-X, C and V work fine in most places, but when you go to the command prompt it changes to Shift+Insert, Ctrl+Insert - the pre-Windows shortcuts, because Ctrl is used for control characters, or even to Alt-Space-E-K, depending on the version. Should applications also start implementing Alt-F4 for quitting? Or F1 for help? Ugh... Feels like taking a step backwards, and also requires manual handling of shortcuts by the application, which means more programming. I for one certainly won't be implementing such code in my applications.



That's why I suggested to find a different way for classic Amiga systems:
"Yes, and to avoid having to re-compile old software for the classic systems, someone could try to find a solution similar to "SKIP ROMUPDATE", where the localised standard Amiga keyboard layout gets 'overridden' by a version with 'CTRL + X/C/V'."

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

For what it's worth, I'm constantly using RAmiga-X/C/V with one hand and never gave it a second thought. Is it that much of a problem for other people?



A clear "Yes" to this.

_________________
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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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Slash 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 13:39:35
#104 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 682
From: Newcastle-upon-Tyne, UK

@Dandy

Quote:
The 'CTRL + X/C/V' became a wordwide 'standard' on the most prevalent platforms in the course of the decades and whoever wants to expand the Amiga's userbase would be wise to do it in a way that makes the changeover for those 'new Amigans' as easy as possible.


*tries*

Nope, doesn't work here, try as I might, I can't get CTRL + X/C/V to do anything on this setup.

*tries again*

Nope, still nothing...

*tries with cmd+X/C/V*

Nope, doesn't work here, try as I might, I can't get CTRL + X/C/V to do anything on this setup.Nope, doesn't work here, try as I might, I can't get CTRL + X/C/V to do anything on this setup.Nope, doesn't work here, try as I might, I can't get CTRL + X/C/V to do anything on this setup.Nope, doesn't work here, try as I might, I can't get CTRL + X/C/V to do anything on this setup.Nope, doesn't work here, try as I might, I can't get CTRL + X/C/V to do anything on this setup.Nope, doesn't work here, try as I might, I can't get CTRL + X/C/V to do anything on this setup.Nope, doesn't work here, try as I might, I can't get CTRL + X/C/V to do anything on this setup.Nope, doesn't work here, try as I might, I can't get CTRL + X/C/V to do anything on this setup. Nope, doesn't work here, try as I might, I can't get CTRL + X/C/V to do anything on this setup.Nope, doesn't work here, try as I might, I can't get CTRL + X/C/V to do anything on this setup.Nope, doesn't work here, try as I might, I can't get CTRL + X/C/V to do anything on this setup.

Whey hey... looks like it's working!

What is this CTRL+X/C/V nonsense that you speak of?

_________________
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It's not a problem you can stop, It's rock n' roll - GN'F'N'R

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Dandy 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 13:53:41
#105 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3042
From: Cologne * Germany

@Daedalus

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:
@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote:

and I wanted to know WHY he thinks so.



A couple of reasons: Ctrl-C is already a shortcut for sending a break - in fact, ctrl + any key is a control character, used for accents, system control and what not.



I know - but [url=https://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F70%2F9b%2F0b%2F709b0b8840e010bdc99773e19479cf1e.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fskullonfire%2Fenzo-and-big-cass%2F&docid=m-fAaHKOxlPuUM&tbnid=OKI4mKyWQCvthM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwiboY6hlPnSAhVGQBoKHRANDwYQMwgkKAMwAw..i&w=292&h=206&safe=active&bih=770&biw=1287&q=you%20can't%20teach%20that%20enzo&ved=0ahUKEwiboY6hlPnSAhVGQBoKHRANDwYQMwgkKAMwAw&iact=mrc&uact=8#h=206&imgrc=OKI4mKyWQCvthM:&spf=8&vet=10ahUKEwiboY6hlPnSAhVGQBoKHRANDwYQMwgkKAMwAw..i&w=292]you can't teach that[/url] ... to 'the masses'.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

The fact that Windows uses it doesn't mean it's a good way of doing things.



Fully agreed - but from my PoV this one of the rare things that Windows really does better. My personal taste.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Even Windows has different behaviours for Ctrl+C depending on context!



I know.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

To be fair, that can be done at the OS level without recompilation if the app is properly coded. Keyboard shortcuts are handled by Intuition, not the app itself. If he system decided Ctrl was to be used instead of the Amiga key, the app won't care.



I'm not the expert, but I know that it is possible to 'trap' commmands and to trigger a different action.
Like we did it on C64 (or on CBM 620, like me), where we bent the "copy"-vector to point to "delete" to prevent unauthorised copying...

The Amiga is in the lucky situation of 'being re-invented' (new HW, new OS) and I think it would be a wise decision by the current developers to consider to align the Amiga copy&paste with what the majority of computer users worldwide is used to.
It would be harder by far to change the Windows way.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Yes, on windows, but it's not like that on the Mac, which is the second most used platform in the world.



Well, the term I used was WIntel.
Mac nowadays is MIntel...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

They have similar shortcuts to the Amiga - dedicated shortcut keys that make a lot of sense. Mac users seem to be able to adapt just fine - why do you think new users wouldn't?



Because I know from my own experience that it is by far more practical for me as a right-handed person.
It's not a matter of 'making sense' - it just feels right.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

The Ctrl shortcuts are an ugly bit of legacy from before PCs had Windows keys on their keyboards.



That does not matter to the masses.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Quote:


AFAIK, most people are right-handed.
For right-handed users it is easier to use the right hand to control the mouse and have the left hand free to press CTRL + X/C/V.



I think the left/right-handed thing is a little overblown. For proper touch-typing, you're supposed to use the shift key with the opposite hand to the one you're typing the character, so a capital C uses the left hand for the letter C and the right hand for holding down shift.



Well, if you replace "shift key" with "mouse", it's basically the same what I say:
"It is easier to use the right hand to control the mouse and have the left hand free to press CTRL + X/C/V."

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

..., but on the Amiga and Mac I use the left hand with the right shortcut key.



That's where I'm feeling like crossing my arms...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Since it's a lot closer to the centre of the keyboard than the Ctrl key,



My left hand is at the left side of the keyboard - not at the centre.
The "centre" is the 'invisible line' where it starts feeling strange for me when I have to cross it with my left hand.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

it's not a stretch at all, and feels more natural to me than the left shortcut key, which is directly under the keys I'm trying to press with it, making it slightly awkward with one hand.



To me and many others the left shortcut key feels more natural.


_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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Daedalus 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 14:50:32
#106 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1549
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote:

Why not?
As I already pointed out to djrikki in my last answer, the 'CTRL + X/C/V' became a wordwide 'standard' on the most prevalent platforms in the course of the recent decades.

Again with the "most prevalent platforms" - it's only the one. The second most prevalent platform uses totally different shortcuts.

Quote:
If the Amiga is meant to attract new users, it would be wise to do it in a way that makes a changeover as easy as possible for those 'new Amigans'. And that includes to adopt this standard.

To bring that to its logical conclusion, we should just make it run Windows. The least possible adjustment that you seem to be so concerned about.

Seriously, how are little things like copy & paste shortcuts going to influence people when they can't even view Youtube videos without jumping through multiple hoops?

Quote:
Enjoying great popularity can have two reasons:
1) something is trendy or stylish (but not necessarily functional)
2) something is truly functional

For me as a right-handed user, the 'CTRL + X/C/V'-way is by far more functional and practicable than the current Amiga-way.

And for me, as a right-handed user, it's not. What we have there is a difference of opinion, not a reason to use one over the other.

Quote:
Yes, I am uncomfortable with the Amiga-way being a "little different" in this regard.

That's fair enough. I presume you're equally as uncomfortable with the Mac shortcuts?

Quote:

Although the developers 'did it right', 'the masses' didn't give a damn shit for that.
'The masses' voted with their feet and made the WIntel platform the prevalent one.
'Done right' is not an decision criterion - in a 'free and democratic world' the majority decides.

True, but correlation does not equal causation. People did not choose Windows over Mac or Amiga or any other system because it used Ctrl-C to copy or Alt-F4 to quit. Such things are utterly insignificant in comparison with the actual reasons.

Quote:

A clear "Yes" to this.

Funny, since it seems perfectly natural to me. I never really considered myself to have particularly wide or long hands (and take a "medium" size in gloves), but I guess again that's a difference of opinion.

Quote:

I'm not the expert, but I know that it is possible to 'trap' commmands and to trigger a different action.

Yep, it could be done at a commodity level, or an Intuition level. But if you're changing Intuition to use Ctrl-C etc., you don't even need to intercept the calls - it'll happen naturally for new and old applications alike.

Quote:
The Amiga is in the lucky situation of 'being re-invented' (new HW, new OS) and I think it would be a wise decision by the current developers to consider to align the Amiga copy&paste with what the majority of computer users worldwide is used to.
It would be harder by far to change the Windows way.

Hardware has precisely nothing to do with it... I'm still confused as to the why of this seemingly urgent need to completely change things. Most people are used to switching platforms - keyboard shortcuts for symbols differ between Windows, iOS and Android for example and people get along just fine.

Quote:
Well, the term I used was WIntel.
Mac nowadays is MIntel...

Indeed, but as I pointed out, hardware has precisely nothing to do with keyboard shortcuts. All hardware platforms have had command/Amiga/Windows keys for at least 20 years at this stage. It's entirely down to the OS to use these keys as it is programmed to do.

Quote:
Because I know from my own experience that it is by far more practical for me as a right-handed person.
It's not a matter of 'making sense' - it just feels right.

Again, personal opinion. It's my opinion that having common shortcut keys for common shortcuts on a platform makes them easier to remember ("was Quit Ctrl-F4 or Alt-F2 or Command-F3?"), and therefore makes more sense for people learning shortcuts. Feeling right to you doesn't necessarily make it feel right for someone else.

Quote:
That does not matter to the masses.

The masses that will suddenly come back to the Amiga because the only reason they were staying away was because of their different shortcuts?

Quote:

Well, if you replace "shift key" with "mouse", it's basically the same what I say:
"It is easier to use the right hand to control the mouse and have the left hand free to press CTRL + X/C/V."

...

That's where I'm feeling like crossing my arms...[quote]
I think you've misinterpreted things here. The first point was for two hands on the keyboard, something I often do, and in that case right hand on Ctrl/alt matches the touch-typing technique. Putting the right hand on the mouse totally changes things, which is what I was talking about in the other points. Two different scenarios, there's never any crossing of arms when I use one-handed shortcuts.

[quote]My left hand is at the left side of the keyboard - not at the centre.
The "centre" is the 'invisible line' where it starts feeling strange for me when I have to cross it with my left hand.

Surely if you've got one hand on the mouse, you've only got one hand on the keyboard? How do you press Enter or use the cursor keys without taking your hand off the mouse then? When I say the shortcut key is closer to the centre, I mean that makes it far easier to reach with one hand than the right Ctrl key.

Quote:
To me and many others the left shortcut key feels more natural.

That's fair enough. But what about me and many others who feel like the Windows shortcuts are unnatural? While I think Windows should have changed them many years ago - maybe with Windows 98 or XP - I can understand how people are used to it and it's up to me to adjust my working to match the Windows conventions. How is that such a difficult thing for people switching from Windows to AmigaOS? Shortcuts will be the least of their worries when they find that they can't do real work because they don't have a VPN clients or don't have 100% compatibility with MS Word or don't have a fully working IMAP mail client or Exchange client or don't have a My Documents folder or don't have a user login... etc. etc. etc.

People moving platforms will know they'll have to learn lots of new conventions. Keyboard shortcuts are waaaay down on the list of priorities, and is completely a non-issue. Do you know anyone who switched to a Mac who gave up and went back to Windows just because of the shortcuts? I don't, but I do know several people who moved to Mac and find the shortcuts more intuitive once they got to know them.

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kolla 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 15:13:35
#107 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 607
From: Trondheim, Norway

What is it with these people that need to screw up the user experience of other platforms just "because windows!"??

Whoever wants ctrl+x/c/v to work as cut/copy/paste can very well bugger off to the platform where this is the standard already - Windows, and its copy-cat DEs on Linux and *BSD.

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cgutjahr 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 28-Mar-2017 15:22:09
#108 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 791
From: Unknown

@Dandy

Quote:

it was Christoph Gutjahr who stated

Quote:

Original by cgutjahr in #43:

...
But Control-C for 'copy to clipboard' is a no-go.


and I wanted to know WHY he thinks so.

There are two points being argued here:

1. Should the Amiga adapt the Control-X/C/V approach?
2. Should it be done by having one or two random application using Control-X/C/V while the rest of the system still uses Amiga-X/C/V?

I was discussing the later point - it's of course insane if application developers start to do whatever they feel like doing. My word processor using different keyboard shortcuts for copy/paste than my text editor or the Shell? That is a no-go.

Andy Broad made a valid point - it's a lot of work to change this if you're porting a big GUI application from Linux, hence his Blender port does not support Amiga keyboard shortcuts either. But his Blender port is available for free...

But if we start arguing that a commercial LibreOffice port does not need to adhere to basic Amiga conventions like the shortcuts used for copying and pasting, we're getting really close to "Timberwolf works fine here" territory IMHO - months before the thing is even released.

As for the other point ("should Amiga adapt Control...?"): I certainly wouldn't mind. Like 99,9% of the world's population, I don't care about Macs - and everybody else is using Control these days. First thing I do when setting up a new computer is reconfiguring the CapsLock key to act as Control - that makes Control-based shortcuts very comfortable to use.

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Dandy 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 29-Mar-2017 14:04:59
#109 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3042
From: Cologne * Germany

@Daedalus

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:
@Dandy

Again with the "most prevalent platforms" - it's only the one. The second most prevalent platform uses totally different shortcuts.



Each of these 'most prevalent platforms' uses Intel hardware - that's what they have in common.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Quote:


If the Amiga is meant to attract new users, it would be wise to do it in a way that makes a changeover as easy as possible for those 'new Amigans'. And that includes to adopt this standard.



To bring that to its logical conclusion, we should just make it run Windows. The least possible adjustment that you seem to be so concerned about.



That's not what I wrote or meant.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Seriously, how are little things like copy & paste shortcuts going to influence people when they can't even view Youtube videos without jumping through multiple hoops?



Like it or not - there are even people out there that would not even get to the point to test watching Youtube videos, if already 'little things like copy & paste shortcuts' do not work like anticipated.

It should be as clear as daylight that these people will not seriously consider a changeover if they see that not only copy&paste does not work as anticipated, but rather that it also requires 'multiple hoops' to be able to watch Youtube videos.
You've got the cart before the horse...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

And for me, as a right-handed user, it's not. What we have there is a difference of opinion, not a reason to use one over the other.



Agreed.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Quote:


Yes, I am uncomfortable with the Amiga-way being a "little different" in this regard.



That's fair enough. I presume you're equally as uncomfortable with the Mac shortcuts?



Never touched an Mac in my life...so no idea about it's shortcuts...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Quote:


Although the developers 'did it right', 'the masses' didn't give a damn shit for that.
'The masses' voted with their feet and made the WIntel platform the prevalent one.
'Done right' is not an decision criterion - in a 'free and democratic world' the majority decides.



...
People did not choose Windows over Mac or Amiga or any other system because it used Ctrl-C to copy or Alt-F4 to quit. Such things are utterly insignificant in comparison with the actual reasons.



That's not what I said.
I just pointed out the way it is - without trying to imply any reasons...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Quote:


A clear "Yes" to this.



Funny, since it seems perfectly natural to me. I never really considered myself to have particularly wide or long hands (and take a "medium" size in gloves), but I guess again that's a difference of opinion.



Yes - it's down to personal taste/opinion.
I hope you concede the right to others to have a personal taste/opinion.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Quote:


I'm not the expert, but I know that it is possible to 'trap' commmands and to trigger a different action.



Yep, it could be done at a commodity level, or an Intuition level. But if you're changing Intuition to use Ctrl-C etc., you don't even need to intercept the calls - it'll happen naturally for new and old applications alike.



I bet 'the masses' give a damn shit about how it is done technically - wether it's done by changing Intuition or by a commodity.

They also do not demand to implement it as system-wide standard - they would already be fine with having the choice of changing the copy&paste shortcuts to "CTRL + x/c/v" - e.g. in the 'Preferences'.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Quote:


The Amiga is in the lucky situation of 'being re-invented' (new HW, new OS) and I think it would be a wise decision by the current developers to consider to align the Amiga copy&paste with what the majority of computer users worldwide is used to.
It would be harder by far to change the Windows way.



Hardware has precisely nothing to do with it...



I never claimed this...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

I'm still confused as to the why of this seemingly urgent need to completely change things.



As I already pointed out above - nobody demands to completely change things - people would already be fine with having the choice of changing the "copy&paste" shortcuts to "CTRL + x/c/v" - e.g. in the 'Preferences'

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Most people are used to switching platforms - keyboard shortcuts for symbols differ between Windows, iOS and Android for example and people get along just fine.



Most people in the world don't even own a computer and don't even have sufficient access to things like clean drinking water and food...
So you might perhaps want to give a definition of what you mean with "Most people"...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Quote:


Well, the term I used was WIntel.
Mac nowadays is MIntel...



Indeed, but as I pointed out, hardware has precisely nothing to do with keyboard shortcuts.



I know what you mean and you're of course right.

But nevertheless, let me 'split hairs' a bit:
What do you use to type those 'shortcuts' in?
Right - you use the keyboard for that.
And what is the broader term for 'keyboard'?
Right - its 'hardware'.

So, what was it you pointed out?


Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

All hardware platforms have had command/Amiga/Windows keys for at least 20 years at this stage. It's entirely down to the OS to use these keys as it is programmed to do.



I never questioned that...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Quote:


Because I know from my own experience that it is by far more practical for me as a right-handed person.
It's not a matter of 'making sense' - it just feels right.



Again, personal opinion.



Personal opinion, of course.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

It's my opinion that having common shortcut keys for common shortcuts on a platform makes them easier to remember



While you're entitled to have your own opinion, I think you will agree that having one common set of shortcut keys for common shortcuts on all platforms makes life even easier than having to remember different shorcuts for each platform...

But even if you don't agree - everybody could be pleased if it was an option you can set in the 'Preferences'...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

("was Quit Ctrl-F4 or Alt-F2 or Command-F3?"),



You use shortcuts to quit a program with a GUI?
O.K. - most likely also down to personal tase.
I prefer to click on the "Close"-gadget...
(and if I do that on an Amiga and the app doesn't close after clicking on the "Close"-gadget, then I know the system has crashed and I just reboot the Miggy...)

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

and therefore makes more sense for people learning shortcuts.



To be honest, some shrtcuts are useful and I use them - others are just relicts from the DOS era and mostly only used by tech nerds nowadays...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Feeling right to you doesn't necessarily make it feel right for someone else.



That's why I favour the 'Option'-solution.
This way you could set it to your preferred way and I to mine...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Quote:


That does not matter to the masses.



The masses that will suddenly come back to the Amiga because the only reason they were staying away was because of their different shortcuts?



That's not what I said...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Quote:


Well, if you replace "shift key" with "mouse", it's basically the same what I say:
"It is easier to use the right hand to control the mouse and have the left hand free to press CTRL + X/C/V."

...

That's where I'm feeling like crossing my arms...



I think you've misinterpreted things here. The first point was for two hands on the keyboard, something I often do, and in that case right hand on Ctrl/alt matches the touch-typing technique.
...



You are missing the point here, because we're not talking about the touch-typing technique, but about the combined use of shortcuts and mouse for copy&paste (Amiga way vs. PC way), which requires one hand on the keyboard and the other on the mouse.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

there's never any crossing of arms when I use one-handed shortcuts.



You're completely right.
But when I want to use the Amiga shortcuts for copy&paste it is easier for me to use both hands.
This may also be matter of personal perception, but precisely this is the reason why it makes me feel like having to cross the arms while copying&pasting.
For me it simply does not feel natural.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Quote:


My left hand is at the left side of the keyboard - not at the centre.
The "centre" is the 'invisible line' where it starts feeling strange for me when I have to cross it with my left hand.



Surely if you've got one hand on the mouse, you've only got one hand on the keyboard?



Naahhh - of course I have two hands on the keyboard and the third one on the mouse...


Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

How do you press Enter or use the cursor keys without taking your hand off the mouse then?



Why would I want to "press Enter or use the cursor keys without taking my hand off the mouse" while performing a copy&paste?


Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

When I say the shortcut key is closer to the centre, I mean that makes it far easier to reach with one hand than the right Ctrl key.



1) For a copy&paste I don't need "the shortcut key", I need the
shortcut keys.

And if I have to press e.g. the "x" with the little finger of
my left hand and the right "A" with the thumb of the left hand,
then I have to bend my left hand to the left in the wrist, so
that it forms an unnatural angle.

To be able to make this grasp I have to pull my left ellbow
towards my body (normally it is on the desk)until it bumps
against my belly to bring my left hand in a position where I
can press the keys - and all this causes this strange feeling
as if I had to work with crossed arms...

2) All keyboards I know (German and UK) have the "CTRL"-key on the
left side - not on the right.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Quote:


To me and many others the left shortcut key feels more natural.



That's fair enough. But what about me and many others who feel like the Windows shortcuts are unnatural?



Solution: make it optional

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

While I think Windows should have changed them many years ago - maybe with Windows 98 or XP -



This time its down to your personal taste...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

I can understand how people are used to it and it's up to me to adjust my working to match the Windows conventions.



I think for most people it is easier to to set their favourite option in the Prefs and forget about it, than having to adjust their decades-old way of working each time they sit in front of a new system...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

How is that such a difficult thing for people switching from Windows to AmigaOS?



The problem is not that it is "such a difficult thing", but making it more difficult than it has to be.
And according to my personal taste, the Windows way is easier than the Amiga way.
That's why I'd like to have the choice...
It's not that I say "You had it for 32 yrs the way you like it, now I want to have it the way I like it". No, I vote for having the option.
This way we both could be happy.

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

Shortcuts will be the least of their worries when they find that they can't do real work because they don't have a VPN clients or don't have 100% compatibility with MS Word or don't have a fully working IMAP mail client or Exchange client or don't have a My Documents folder or don't have a user login... etc. etc. etc.



Do you think 'a VPN client' has to be part of the operating system?
Do you think '100% compatibility with MS Word' is in the responsibility of the OS?
Or a 'fully working IMAP mail client'?
Or an 'Exchange client'?

I don't.
And if I feel the need to have a 'My Documents'-folder, I create one...or two...or so...

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

...
Do you know anyone who switched to a Mac



No.


Quote:

Daedalus wrote:

I do know several people who moved to Mac





Last edited by Dandy on 29-Mar-2017 at 02:14 PM.
Last edited by Dandy on 29-Mar-2017 at 02:13 PM.

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kolla 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 29-Mar-2017 14:36:17
#110 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 607
From: Trondheim, Norway

Any other windows shortcuts you want to bring over?

On Amiga, CTRL+X already has a function, as does CTRL+A, CTRL+W, CTRL+H, CTRL+U, CTRL+J, CTRL+K, CTRL+Z and CTRL+M... from the top of my head.

Consistency between CLI and GUI is one of the strongpoints on Amiga, the shortcuts that work in the CLI for most part also work in the GUI and vice versa.

And you want to ruin that. For what? To attract Windows users? Why do you even want to do that? Planning on setting up a support center?

Last edited by kolla on 29-Mar-2017 at 02:36 PM.

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paolone 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 29-Mar-2017 14:42:41
#111 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

I am always astonished by the apparent detach from reality of some Amiga lovers.

Ok, now please let me do a reality check for you.

LibreOffice is not a little free application, nor it is a bigger program. It is a *HUGE* software suite needing and bringing dozens of complex technologies that would be overkill for any person so crazy to port it. LibreOffice adapted to many CPU architectures and operating systems thanks to their similarities, and was quite fast to port thanks to the hundreds of people working on its sources. When you have dozens of volounteers trying to port it to a single platform every day, you CAN port it, BUT, when you have to deal with Amiga's lack of hands and resources, THEN, you will need time and hopefully money to bring it. Every adapting effort (even the silliest, like having menus behaving like any Amiga app, or standard amiga shortcuts) needs time, effort and money. In the end, you risk to posticipate the release of the port of a year just to make a few people happy with their right Amiga key.

I don't know how many people are involved into porting LibreOffice to AmigaOS 4, but guessing they were less than 5 people, I'd consider them HEROES, more than coders or paid professionals.

Now think about how these people are working. They have a monumental work to do, they probably are doing that in their spare time as a secondary job (because I know very little people living with Amiga coding), they probably spent their last night to make the PDF export button work properly and... then they browse here to see what people have to say, and find this long, pointless, silly debate about how bad would be using Ctrl+X instead of rAmiga+X.

If I were someone of them, I would surely seek something better to do with my life, than trying to make you happy. Really.

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eliyahu 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 29-Mar-2017 15:14:29
#112 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1700
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@paolone

Quote:
I don't know how many people are involved into porting LibreOffice to AmigaOS 4, but guessing they were less than 5 people, I'd consider them HEROES, more than coders or paid professionals.

Now think about how these people are working. They have a monumental work to do, they probably are doing that in their spare time as a secondary job (because I know very little people living with Amiga coding), they probably spent their last night to make the PDF export button work properly and... then they browse here to see what people have to say, and find this long, pointless, silly debate about how bad would be using Ctrl+X instead of rAmiga+X.

If I were one of them, I would surely seek something better to do with my life, than trying to make you happy. Really.

well stated, sir.

-- eliyahu

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thinkchip 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 29-Mar-2017 15:22:08
#113 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Mar-2004
Posts: 1081
From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

@paolone

A discussion of shortcut keys is worthwhile, but one standard will probably never happen. Apple might could do it, since they have such tight control. You definitely won't see shortcut-key standards in Windows. It doesn't bother me.

I hope no Amiga developer is thin-skinned enough to be bothered by things posted on this forum. There are many who are bothered and they drop out. If the main reason for developing on the Amiga is flattery and praise, they will be always be very disappointed. Anyway, porting LibreOffice is a heroic effort that I personally appreciate a lot. I consider it possibly the biggest achievement in Amiga's history. Amiga legacy / NG has never had a complete office suite. I plan on buying it when it's done. I'm hoping the testing goes well so it's available soon.

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ExiE 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 29-Mar-2017 15:39:18
#114 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-May-2004
Posts: 433
From: Czech Amiga News

@kolla

Quote:
Consistency between CLI and GUI is one of the strongpoints on Amiga, the shortcuts that work in the CLI for most part also work in the GUI and vice versa. And you want to ruin that. For what? To attract Windows users? Why do you even want to do that? Planning on setting up a support center?


No. Just so everybody who ever used the LibreOffice can Cut/Copy/Paste without looking how to do that.

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ChrisH 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 29-Mar-2017 21:50:48
#115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6670
From: Unknown

@paolone Quote:
I am always astonished by the apparent detach from reality of some Amiga lovers.

Quote:
then they browse here to see what people have to say, and find this long, pointless, silly debate about how bad would be using Ctrl+X instead of rAmiga+X.

*insert something snarky about Amiga World here*

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OneTimer1 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 29-Mar-2017 23:55:28
#116 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 190
From: Unknown

@paolone

Quote:

paolone wrote:

... then they browse here to see what people have to say, and find this long, pointless, silly debate about how bad would be using Ctrl+X instead of rAmiga+X.



Well it is interesting how good this program will be adopted into the AmigaOS4 environment.

rAmiga+X , AREXX Interface , Datatypes , Intellifonts , ... ?

We will see when it is done, impatient people can look to Timberwolf maybe it is done in the same way.

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iggy 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 30-Mar-2017 0:13:11
#117 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 942
From: Bear, Delaware USA

What a remarkably long winded, contentious thread.
Personally, I don't use short cut key myself.

In Windows, I prefer right mouse button popup functions.

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pixie 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 30-Mar-2017 3:13:40
#118 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2645
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@paolone

Quote:
LibreOffice is not a little free application, nor it is a bigger program. It is a *HUGE* software suite needing and bringing dozens of complex technologies that would be overkill for any person so crazy to port it.

Perhaps an util that catch this deviant programs and make them behave would be more sensible, what isn't sensible is having each program with each own set of shortcuts.

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Amigo1 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 30-Mar-2017 3:56:18
#119 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1365
From: Cork Ireland

@Dandy

You can swap right and left Amiga keys. It's possible to do at least since OS4.0
As far as I remember all ll it takes are two small commands in user startup or a variable in UBoot or CFE (depending on the hardware you are using)

Once you have done that, you can conveniently use your left hand to press LAmiga-x/c/v to cut copy and paste and all other application shortcuts are convenient to reach too.
You will then have to use RAmiga n/m/v/b to switch screens and confirm and cancel in requesters. But at least the screen switch (bring Workbench to front, cycle through screens can be achieved with FKey)

Summing up, it is already user configurable. What is left to do is to politely ask (or complain to, since it is the 99.9% way of doing it around here) the OS developers to implement a way to set it via GUI in Preferences.

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Amigo1 
Re: LibreOffice coming for AOS4
Posted on 30-Mar-2017 4:07:08
#120 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1365
From: Cork Ireland

@Daedalus

Quote:
Quote:
Yepp.
The 'CTRL + X/C/V' became a wordwide 'standard' on the most prevalent platforms in the course of the decades and whoever wants to expand the Amiga's userbase would be wise to do it in a way that makes the changeover for those 'new Amigans' as easy as possible.


Yes, on windows, but it's not like that on the Mac, which is the second most used platform in the world. They have similar shortcuts to the Amiga - dedicated shortcut keys that make a lot of sense. Mac users seem to be able to adapt just fine - why do you think new users wouldn't?


You are right and actually on both OS X and macOS it goes a little further: in preference/accessibility you can very easily define shortcuts for Apps, making the App totally customized to your needs. You select the menu entry you want a shortcut assigned to, select the key combination on the keyboard and you are done. Neat.

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